Madeleine and Chris: Media and Public Opinion

[Roslyn]

End of story to you, maybe, but certainly not to the people her in Sweden. Like others have said before, I think there's a big difference between how people from the US views the situation, as opposed to scandinavians.

To many (or most) of us, Chris might be a nice guy, but he's certainly doing a good job at not letting us know that. I would say that the general opinion about him here is that he's an american guy that works with something semi-shady in finance. He married a swedish princess, but doesn't seem bothered to learning swedish, not even much about our customs and traditions. He sometimes shows up, but we never know when, and he makes his wife attend major events alone, even now that she's pregnant.

We/you may not like that, but I still think that's the general opinion. I'm just hoping that Chris proves us all wrong, because I would love it if they could turn this around.

Again, different expectations. Different people have different expectations of what is expected of Chris as Madeleine's husband. I think this might have something to do with what different people expect of partners to a marriage generally, though that is only speculation on my part.

Chris is not Swedish, has never lived in Sweden, doesn't seem to want to live in Sweden, has given no indication he wants to become a Swedish citizen, did not accept a Royal title, and all along has given the indication he wants to remain a private citizen living a private life and maintaining himself from his private income from his private business. So why should he learn Swedish or learn about Swedish customs and traditions? His wife is a Swedish princess and she has Royal obligations, but he doesn't. I don't think he is obliged to prove anything to the people of Sweden any more than he would be obliged to prove anything to his wife's employers or shareholders if she were a school teacher or principal of a large business. I see Madeleine's Royal status as akin to a separate career. They have different lives which overlap for some purposes but not totally.

It would be entirely different if he had given up his profession, formally become part of the Swedish Royal Family and taken a Royal title and received Royal income, and become a Swedish citizen. But he didn't.

 

[Lady Nimue]

I'm with Muhler on this one.

Originally Posted by Muhler
There is IMO a cultural or social, not clash, but difference in play here. I.e. That Chris believed (naively IMO) that he could opt to stay off the royal road show. And that no one would mind.

The only difference being the extent of Chris's naivety.

I have always been of the opinion that Chris had no idea what he was getting himself into by marrying Madeleine, after all, she lived and worked in NY just like him. I truly believe that Chris thought Madeleine's position as a Princess of Sweden was much the same as his sister's as Countess Natascha von Abensberg-Traun. Old money, old title. Sounds good, means little.

He wasn't required to be involved in "planning" his wedding. Mostly just providing his "guest list" and such. The big royal wedding machine has its own cogs and wheels and requires very little grease. Then suddenly its the day before the wedding and the place is overrun with the great, the good and the royal. Hello, didn't think it was quite that big a deal, but okay, getting married tomorrow, honeymoon and home . . . to NY. Done and dusted.

IMO the scope and depth of his blissful ignorance didn't hit home until the wheels fell off his idyll with Madeleine's somewhat unexpected pregnancy less than three months after their marriage.

I agree with this summation, with one little addition: namely, that this all may be a function of the Internet and chat sites.

Hasn't there been numerous Royal Princesses over the years who have married commoners - businessmen - who were left alone to pursue their business lives in peace away from the glare of 'the court'? Why Madeleine and Chris should be experiencing things differently may have to do with tabloids getting some headlines and Internet buzz around the instantaneous pictures.

Anyway, the interpretation of why Chris is here or there, doing this or that, could be wildly off-kilter. There just is no way to know what's what imo. I'm sure Chris wants to provide for his wife and children in a worthy way and that takes work. So that's what he's doing. Just my guess.

 

[LadyFinn]

The PR around Madeleine and Chris is very bad. And during the last weeks I have started thinking that Madeleine and Chris don't inform the court press department very well, or that Chris' schedule is constantly changing. Or the court is so busy with the large PR-machinery built around Carl Philip and Sofia that they don't care about Madeleine and Chris.
Aftonbladet wrote on Wednesday "Yesterday - on Tuesday - the court announced that Chris O'Neill was abroad, but that he should come to Sweden later this week to make it in time to the private wedding party held on Friday."
This made it sound like Chris wasn't going to come to Sweden to his wife's birthday yesterday.
Now Aftonbladet tells today that Chris was in Stockholm yesterday and was seen walking with Madeleine and Leonore.
”Chris riskerar missa födseln” _ Prinsbröllopet _ Nyheter _ Aftonbladet
Chris firade Madde i Stockholm _ Nyheter _ Aftonbladet

It looks obvious that the court press department didn't know that Chris would surely be in Stockholm on Madeleine's birthday, otherwise they would have said "Chris will return to Sweden to celebrate his wife's birthday" and it had sounded totally different than "he will return to Sweden later in the week".
These are small things but when these kind of things are constantly in the press, the negativity grows.

I can understand that Chris as a private person doesn't want to give interviews. He and Madeleine gave a long interview to newspaper SVD in July 2013 and Chris talked to the media at the "The Year with the Royal Family" -TV-program. He thinks that it is enough and I understand that.

 

[Roslyn]

No matter how busy Chris and Madeleine are with work and home life and birthdays and attending weddings and delivering babies, they should be able to manage to keep the Palace PR people updated about Chris' travel plans by email. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect them to do that.

 

[xenobia]

Then it sounds like the Swedes have no idea what they're talking about on this matter.

He's not American for starters.

He's not an HRH, he's not even a Swedish citizen. He just happened to marry a Swedish princess.

The idea that his work is "shady' I think comes from the Swedish press who tried to make a big deal over the fact that his company was incorporated in Delaware, but operated in New York (which is perfectly normal and legal).

I'm not saying that it's what I personally think. It isn't. I was just trying to summarize what's written in the press, and what people who aren't interested in royalty says about it when I talk to them. Like Lady Finn said, they need to do something about their PR-situation. And they need to show some consistency when it comes to their roles and duties (that goes for both Madeleine and Chris).

 

[Frelinghighness]

Very good points made by the Previous posts. The press has noticed that stories about this attractive couple sells, so they keep it up. If they were dumpy and frumpy and dull they wouldn't.
As far as informing the pr department of their every move, mad die is nine months pregnant and I don't know about the rest of you but when I was in that state I did the best I could but was really operating in a daze.

 

[Mbruno]

Some verision of Chris is going to be the husband of Alexia and Ariane from the Netherlands,

Under Dutch law, the consorts of Alexia and Ariane will automatically become members of the Royal House. They can't simply "bail out" as Chris did. Of course, they won't have to show up for all royal events, but I expect their status to be similar to Pieter van Vollenhoven's, not to Chris'.

Reference: wetten.nl - Wet- en regelgeving - Wet lidmaatschap koninklijk huis - BWBR0013729
"Artikel 1

Met de Koning als hoofd van het koninklijk huis zijn daarvan lid:

• a.zij die krachtens de Grondwet de Koning kunnen opvolgen en deze niet verder bestaan dan in de tweede graad van bloedverwantschap;
• b. de vermoedelijke opvolger van de Koning;
• c. de Koning die afstand van het koningschap heeft gedaan.

Artikel 2

• 1.Lid van het koninklijk huis zijn eveneens de echtgenoten van hen die ingevolge artikel 1 het lidmaatschap van het koninklijk huis bezitten.
• 2.Voor hen die het lidmaatschap van het koninklijk huis bezaten als echtgenote of echtgenoot, blijft dit lidmaatschap gedurende hun staat van weduwe of weduwnaar behouden, zolang de overleden echtgenote of echtgenoot bij leven ingevolge artikel 1 lid van het koninklijk huis zou zijn geweest."

 

[Mbruno]

Hasn't there been numerous Royal Princesses over the years who have married commoners - businessmen - who were left alone to pursue their business lives in peace away from the glare of 'the court'?

All consorts of royal princesses (i.e. official members of a Royal House) I can think of show up for (at least some) royal events unless there is some specific reason to avoid inviting them (I'm thinking for example of Inãki after he fell from grace). To be fair, early in his marriage, Chris O'Neill did make a few public appearances in key occasions. It's only recently that he has been reluctant to show up with his wife in royal events and, for some reason, even decided to move overseas alone in the latter stages of her second pregnancy.

Anyway, the interpretation of why Chris is here or there, doing this or that, could be wildly off-kilter. There just is no way to know what's what imo. I'm sure Chris wants to provide for his wife and children in a worthy way and that takes work. So that's what he's doing. Just my guess

I can't possibly imagine Chris being such a busy person that he can't fly (on a weekend ?) from London to Stockholm to attend a public celebration of the King's birthday. Quite frankly, that is not a good excuse.

 

[acdc1]

Again, different expectations. Different people have different expectations of what is expected of Chris as Madeleine's husband. I think this might have something to do with what different people expect of partners to a marriage generally, though that is only speculation on my part.

Chris is not Swedish, has never lived in Sweden, doesn't seem to want to live in Sweden, has given no indication he wants to become a Swedish citizen, did not accept a Royal title, and all along has given the indication he wants to remain a private citizen living a private life and maintaining himself from his private income from his private business. So why should he learn Swedish or learn about Swedish customs and traditions? His wife is a Swedish princess and she has Royal obligations, but he doesn't. I don't think he is obliged to prove anything to the people of Sweden any more than he would be obliged to prove anything to his wife's employers or shareholders if she were a school teacher or principal of a large business. I see Madeleine's Royal status as akin to a separate career. They have different lives which overlap for some purposes but not totally.

It would be entirely different if he had given up his profession, formally become part of the Swedish Royal Family and taken a Royal title and received Royal income, and become a Swedish citizen. But he didn't.

It's not just his wife that is a Swedish princess, but his daughter is HRH Princess Leonore of Sweden, and his next child will also be a HRH Prince or Princess of Sweden. These children will need to speak Swedish and be primarily raised in Sweden from school-age, so at some point Chris will have to move to Sweden, unless he wants to let his wife and children live there alone.

 

[eya]

It's not just his wife that is a Swedish princess, but his daughter is HRH Princess Leonore of Sweden, and his next child will also be a HRH Prince or Princess of Sweden. These children will need to speak Swedish and be primarily raised in Sweden from school-age, so at some point Chris will have to move to Sweden, unless he wants to let his wife and children live there alone.

I'm afraid something like that be happen.

 

[princess gertrude]

No matter how busy Chris and Madeleine are with work and home life and birthdays and attending weddings and delivering babies, they should be able to manage to keep the Palace PR people updated about Chris' travel plans by email. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect them to do that.

I agree. But for some reason I think that they have a mindset that they don't have too. Not sure why I think that (since i don't know either one of them) they just come across that way to me. Madeleine is either going to have to go all in without Chris or she is going to have to step away from engagements in Sweden altogether. They for sure need to make family's PR department more aware of what is going on though.

 

[moby]

JMO but I think it's about time Chris puts his foot down and defines his role within the family. Once she gives birth, Princess Madeleine should be more consistent in attending events in Sweden, become more visible, be seen to actually work more. It should be well-established that she is the princess with the royal duties while her husband is a completely private citizen.

Chris should stop picking events he could attend and just not go to anything that's a public event where he can be asked to pose for official photos. Enough with what's "expected" of him just because he married a princess. They should be treated as individuals and not as a team when it comes to their "duties" in the royal family. It's all about defining things according to what works for their peculiar situation and having an efficient PR team that delivers the message clearly. He has a career that pays for his and his family's needs and not exactly basic lifestyle. Sweden doesn't pay for any of those. Of course he should attend family events but he should do so as a private individual. Again, he should not be in any posed photos that will be released to the public especially in relation to state events. People may see him if Madeleine, for instance, shares photos on Facebook of them as a family, doing family things in their private time. Just a thought. It's Sweden, the pioneer of all things progressive, supposedly. It could work.

 

[Muhler]

It's not just his wife that is a Swedish princess, but his daughter is HRH Princess Leonore of Sweden, and his next child will also be a HRH Prince or Princess of Sweden. These children will need to speak Swedish and be primarily raised in Sweden from school-age, so at some point Chris will have to move to Sweden, unless he wants to let his wife and children live there alone.

That is the big question. In five years time when this question become really relevant, we will know whether V&D will have a child more. (If not, we may begin to accept that Estelle will be their only child).
But in five years Sofia and CP should have at least one child (if possible) and in that case, there really is no reason for Chris and Madeleine to move to Sweden, because then there will already be an heir and at least one spare at hand.
And why should they resettle to Sweden just so that Leonore and X can remain in the line succession, when they are in all likelihood redundant anyway?

Only if V&D have no more children and S&CP don't have any (healthy) children either, does it become a necessity for Madeleine and Chris to move to Sweden, whether they like it or not.

 

[JR76]

My often repeated opinion is that as soon CP has a child the O'Neills will see to it that their children are out of the succession faster than the blink of an eye.


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[xenobia]

My often repeated opinion is that as soon CP has a child the O'Neills will see to it that their children are out of the succession faster than the blink of an eye.

Totally agree.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

But won't that involve stripping them of their titles? Why give them titles in the first place only to take them away when Carl-Philip has children? Madeleine and the king always knew this was going to happen(CP marries and starts a family)

Spilled milk can't be put back in the bottle.

 

[GracieGiraffe]

That is the big question. In five years time when this question become really relevant, we will know whether V&D will have a child more. (If not, we may begin to accept that Estelle will be their only child).
But in five years Sofia and CP should have at least one child (if possible) and in that case, there really is no reason for Chris and Madeleine to move to Sweden, because then there will already be an heir and at least one spare at hand.
And why should they resettle to Sweden just so that Leonore and X can remain in the line succession, when they are in all likelihood redundant anyway?

Only if V&D have no more children and S&CP don't have any (healthy) children either, does it become a necessity for Madeleine and Chris to move to Sweden, whether they like it or not.

My understanding was that in order to be an HRH they had to be raised in Sweden. But can they keep the HRH and remove themselves from the line of succession, thereby living where they want in the world?

 

[Muhler]

My understanding was that in order to be an HRH they had to be raised in Sweden. But can they keep the HRH and remove themselves from the line of succession, thereby living where they want in the world?

Why not? If it had been decided from the very beginning that Leonore should not be in the line of succession she surely could have a royal title of some sort anyway?

Not sure how things work in Sweden, but once Leonore and X turn eighteen, who is to decide that sorry, they can't be in the line of succession?
The Monarch? The Parliament?

I think it will be more realistic that Leonore and X will keep their titles, but de facto not be considered in the line of succession regardless of their titles. "And then we'll talk no more about that".
Especially as it unlikely Leonore and X will ever be required to stand in for the Monarch.

 

[Hans-Rickard]

Madeleine and Chris: Media Negativity and Public Opinion

Why not? If it had been decided from the very beginning that Leonore should not be in the line of succession she surely could have a royal title of some sort anyway?

Not sure how things work in Sweden, but once Leonore and X turn eighteen, who is to decide that sorry, they can't be in the line of succession?
The Monarch? The Parliament?

I think it will be more realistic that Leonore and X will keep their titles, but de facto not be considered in the line of succession regardless of their titles. "And then we'll talk no more about that".
Especially as it unlikely Leonore and X will ever be required to stand in for the Monarch.

They don't need to have titles at all to be in the line of succession.

The swedish constitution describes who are included in the succession and who aren't. All descendants of Carl XVI Gustaf will be included in the line of succession. If anyone renounces their right to the throne it is the government who decides to lift someone out from the line of succession. I really can't imagine that the King would actively try to throw any of his grandchildren out of the line of succession.

I understand that it is a very important question for both Madeleine and the King that her children gets titles and are equally treated with the children of Victoria and Carl-Philip and that they are not known as Mr and Mrs O'Neill.

We will see what the future holds. I can imagine that they will discuss this matter again further down the road if both Victoria and Carl-Philip will have (more) children.
As it is know Leonore is practically the Heiress Presumptive to Estelle and is needed in the line of succession but i would be very surprised if neither Victoria or Carl-Philip will have more children.

 

[GracieGiraffe]

Why not? If it had been decided from the very beginning that Leonore should not be in the line of succession she surely could have a royal title of some sort anyway?

Not sure how things work in Sweden, but once Leonore and X turn eighteen, who is to decide that sorry, they can't be in the line of succession?
The Monarch? The Parliament?

I think it will be more realistic that Leonore and X will keep their titles, but de facto not be considered in the line of succession regardless of their titles. "And then we'll talk no more about that".
Especially as it unlikely Leonore and X will ever be required to stand in for the Monarch.

My point is, I thought it was a requirement to get the HRH to be educated in Sweden. If so, the die was cast on where the family would live when that decision was made.

 

[Mbruno]

My point is, I thought it was a requirement to get the HRH to be educated in Sweden. If so, the die was cast on where the family would live when that decision was made.

In principle, all (male and female) descendants of King Carl XVI Gustaf are in the line of succession to the Swedish throne (descendants from former kings who do not also descend from Carl XVI Gustaf are excluded).

There are a few explicit situations, however, in which a descendant from King Carl XVI Gustaf can be legally excluded from the succession:

1. If he or she marries without the consent of the Swedish government, which can be requested only by the monarch (in theory, the monarch can therefore exclude someone from the succession simply by not asking the government to consent to that person's marriage).
2. If he or she becomes the "sovereign ruler" of a foreign country without the consent of the Swedish monarch and the Swedish parliament.
3. If he or she does not profess the Lutheran faith.

Conditions (1) and (2) above exclude not only the person falling under those categories, but also all his/her descendants.



In addition, the Act of Succession also says that "princes of the Royal House" must be brought up "within the realm" (i.e. in Sweden). The Act of Succession does not explicitly say that not being brought up in the realm triggers loss of succession rights, but the current interpretation, confirmed by the Royal Court when Leonore was born, is that it does.


On the issue of titles, in the past, princes of the royal house who were excluded from the succession because of the old "unequal marriage" clause in the Act of Succession, e.g. Carl Gustaf's uncles, were also stripped of their princely titles. I must assume that would still be the case if one of Carl Gustaf's descendants were also excluded for any the reasons listed above.


ICL - Sweden - The Act of Succession

 

[Muhler]

My point is, I thought it was a requirement to get the HRH to be educated in Sweden. If so, the die was cast on where the family would live when that decision was made.

Yes, but surely that is a detail that can be circumnavigated, depending on circumstances.

Say Sweden was occupied for ten years by a foreign power and the SRF went into exile. If the legislation was interpreted strictly that would mean Estelle couldn't become queen when the SRF returned after the occupation. So there must be room for interpretation both ways.
I.e. Leonore and X can remain in line for the throne, just in case, even though they live abroad.
Alternatively, they can retain their titles and status, even if they de facto, "give up" their place in line of succession by not going to school and growing up in Sweden.

As I understood from Hans-Rickard's post it's ultimately up to the government/Parliament to interpret and decide whether the requirements have been met or not.
And that will IMO only be relevant should V&D not have any more children and S&CP at the same time not having any. Because then there will be a serious shortage of SRF members in the next generation!

I can imagine that the legislation in that case will interpreted in a way to mean that if Leonore and X go to school in Sweden for one year and they speak fluent Swedish and have visited Sweden regularly throughout their lives that will be deemed "sufficient".
And they will after all have ample warning to prepare for that eventuality, unless (heaven forbid) Estelle and her parents should suddenly perish in an accident.

ADDED: My prediction would be that Leonore and X are and will remain in the line of succession, unless it for whatever reason is decided they are not. And why should anyone want to do that?

 

[Kellydofc]

My often repeated opinion is that as soon CP has a child the O'Neills will see to it that their children are out of the succession faster than the blink of an eye.


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community mobile app

I think so too.

 

[LadyFinn]

Gossip press attacks again, on the cover of Hänt Extra
Photo proof
One betrayal too much
Madeleine is tired of Chris
http://www.allerbutiken.se/Global/Covers/HEX.jpg

 

[Lee-Z]

Gossip press attacks again, on the cover of Hänt Extra
Photo proof
One betrayal too much
Madeleine is tired of Chris
http://www.allerbutiken.se/Global/Covers/HEX.jpg

Is the "photo proof" that little pic where she's checking her mobile while presumably sitting opposite him?
If it is, the press are really desperate for story...

 

[hkittybaby]

Gossip press attacks again, on the cover of Hänt Extra
Photo proof
One betrayal too much
Madeleine is tired of Chris
http://www.allerbutiken.se/Global/Covers/HEX.jpg

Press can be ridiculous

 

[Frelinghighness]

Why do forum members show such ridiculous tabloids?

 

[grevinnan]

Why do forum members show such ridiculous tabloids?

A very good question. It would be nice if there were some rules as to what is acceptable postings. If individual members like to read gossip articles that is fine but it really brings the quality of these discussions down.

 

[GracieGiraffe]

Is the "photo proof" that little pic where she's checking her mobile while presumably sitting opposite him?
If it is, the press are really desperate for story...

OMG!! My marriage must really be on the rocks!!!!

 

[princess maggie]

Why do forum members show such ridiculous tabloids?

I am English speaking and fairly new to the forum but I have read as a guest from time to time before joining. I have used google translate at times but feel I am still guessing about what the papers are writing. I am hoping to learn about some of my favourite Royals thru this forum but I do find there is a lot of what I consider gossip being written here. I will continue in the hope of reading less gossip and more facts but it is not always clear to me yet.