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  #141  
Old 07-23-2015, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Thanks, LadyFinn.

And here the good Chris is being compared to a caveman by a PR expert.
PR-experten: O'Neill framstår som en grottman - News55

I'll spare you the translation but talk about a cultural clash here!
Interesting actually.
Yes, very interesting. Paul Ronge says that Chris's answer is very American and not at all in line with how many Swedes look at gender equality. Ronge also thinks that it would have been a great help to Chris if someone from the court would have told about that to Chris.
Ronge thinks that the statement to support Madeleine and put food on the table had sounded strange and backward even if it were so that the princess had no own money. Ronge says that most serious to the court is that the interview puts light on an issue the royal family is not keen to talk about.
- Unconsciously he puts the apanage in focus. It is precisely the question many will think of when they read his answer. Unlike her siblings, Madeleine has not shown any great interest to fulfill her duties at home. If she then will be staying in London and is provided by Chris, probably many ask why she ever should have some apanage from Swedish people. The court should have prepared him with a better answer to that question, says Paul Ronge.

Of course the court has told that Madeleine gets apanage only when she does royal duties. But not all the people have read that or understand that. And when/if Madeleine is flying a few times in a month to Sweden to do royal duties, the people start to wonder if her flying tickets are paid from the apanage and if that is right...
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  #142  
Old 07-23-2015, 03:51 PM
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Also a thing to remember about general Swedish media is that they are very much dominated by left-wings so the articles will always be harsher and more left than the general view.
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  #143  
Old 07-23-2015, 03:54 PM
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Those articles are obviously the more activly vocal people about it. No doubt you people have vocal stupid people in papers as well.

And honestly. I get very, very sad about how easily YOU guys dismiss and say OUR views are wierd... Aren't you doing exactly the same that you are accusing us of? Can't we just agree that different countries and groups have different cultures and there are pro's and con's in all of them?

And we commenters here have only predicted that this would be the reaction. We have not begrudged them their choice at all!
I'm saying it should be a matter of choice. In every country. If Chris and Madeleine are happy with him being the breadwinner, that should be the end of it.

This seems to be more about ideology than equality. If both parents want to work then fine if one chooses to be the 'breadwinner' that should be fine too.

But to label a man who isn't singing from the same hymn sheet as other Swedes a 'caveman' or a throwback to the 1950s doesn't seem very equal to me.

Anywayyy, that's enough for me because I'm bowing out of Swedish threads.
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  #144  
Old 07-23-2015, 03:55 PM
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My mother was home for a while with me (until 4 maybe) and met no problem. And there are a few bloggers as well that are "housewifes" and as any blogger recives critique for their choices but no more than other bloggers about their choices. We are not saying it's forbidden or very much frowned upond (sometimes curously questioned such as "are you not afraid of having a lower pension when old" "What happens if you divorce") just that it's just more "normal" to work. It's nothing you think about because that's how your mother did and she was amazing. We also have much longer maternity+paternity leave than many countries so it's not like mothers leave them when they're 2 months old.
I agree. People are free to chose to live their lives however they want, as long as they aren't hurting others. Admittedly, I'm one of those women who are worried about the financial limitations that can hit a woman who isn't working if there is a divorce. I've seen it happen more than once. (I lived in Canada for a while, and have friends there and a lot of other places all over the world). So yes, I worry about their situation, but that doesn't mean that they can't chose what fits them best. And in Madeleines case, it's not exactly like she's going to starve or become homeless if worst case scenario happens.
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  #145  
Old 07-23-2015, 03:55 PM
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It has nothing to do with political correctness. Don't you guys want similar rights and pay for women? If all women stay home 10 years for rearing kids, how on earth can you expect to be treated the same?
I believe a woman must have the choice to decide what to do with her life.

If she wants to work, fine. If she wants to stay at home taking care of the children, fine as well.

And I'm a 36 years old woman who decided not to marry and have children in order to focus on my career.
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  #146  
Old 07-23-2015, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by xenobia View Post
I agree. People are free to chose to live their lives however they want, as long as they aren't hurting others. Admittedly, I'm one of those women who are worried about the financial limitations that can hit a woman who isn't working if there is a divorce. I've seen it happen more than once. (I lived in Canada for a while, and have friends there and a lot of other places all over the world). So yes, I worry about their situation, but that doesn't mean that they can't chose what fits them best. And in Madeleines case, it's not exactly like she's going to starve or become homeless if worst case scenario happens.
I agree. The people who stay at home in Sweden are 2 groups. The romantics (that stay home because they want without thinking about what could happen) and the practics (that are well aware of what can happen and have made plans for it -man saving a extra pension for her, a good prenup etc or have well-knowingly taken the chance). The first group I can feel a little worried about, but the second I have a huge respect for because they are doing what is right for them.
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  #147  
Old 07-23-2015, 03:59 PM
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I believe a woman must have the choice to decide what to do with her life.

If she wants to work, fine. If she wants to stay at home taking care of the children, fine as well.

And I'm a 36 years old woman who decided not to marry and have children in order to focus on my career.
I agree. And we havn't said anything else.And they are very welcome to make that choice. We are just saying that most aren't
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  #148  
Old 07-23-2015, 04:20 PM
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The issue is clearly one of culture, Chris didn't mean it to sound anti-feminest or big headed, he pointed out the reality of the situation he and Madeleine are in using words that in America or the UK would be acceptable by all but the most liberal of media. The only thing it shows is that he perhaps doesn't understand that in Sweden such phrases might not been seen as acceptable but equally IMO the Swedish media need to be realistic when talking about a man who has not long married into the Royal Family having hardly ever lived there.
Personally I don't think Chris is of the mind set that he earns all the money so what he says goes, I suspect he and Madeleine have quite an equal relationship however what he said is true, please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Madeleine didn't get paid for her work for World Childhood Foundation therefore he is technically true, he is the one who works and brings in the most money so it makes perfect sense for his family to be where he needs to be for work.

The media are making a big deal about the exact words he used but not putting them in context, he is not Swedish (rightly or wrongly) and such phrases are acceptable in his culture and he is technically the one working to bring in the money (Madeleine might be wealthy but doesn't have to work in a job for it as such)
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  #149  
Old 07-23-2015, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by xenobia View Post
No, they aren't hearing, for some reason. Trying to explain the swedish society obviously isn't appreciated here, so I think I'm out. Why waste my time?
It's appreciated, but without actually living in the society i'm convinced it's not possible to 100% understand it, maybe 80 or 90% if you're from a similar environment..

In the NL i think the "breadwinner" phrase would have been considered somewhat old-fashioned, but nothing more
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  #150  
Old 07-23-2015, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post
The issue is clearly one of culture, Chris didn't mean it to sound anti-feminest or big headed, he pointed out the reality of the situation he and Madeleine are in using words that in America or the UK would be acceptable by all but the most liberal of media. The only thing it shows is that he perhaps doesn't understand that in Sweden such phrases might not been seen as acceptable but equally IMO the Swedish media need to be realistic when talking about a man who has not long married into the Royal Family having hardly ever lived there.
Personally I don't think Chris is of the mind set that he earns all the money so what he says goes, I suspect he and Madeleine have quite an equal relationship however what he said is true, please correct me if I'm wrong but I thought Madeleine didn't get paid for her work for World Childhood Foundation therefore he is technically true, he is the one who works and brings in the most money so it makes perfect sense for his family to be where he needs to be for work.

The media are making a big deal about the exact words he used but not putting them in context, he is not Swedish (rightly or wrongly) and such phrases are acceptable in his culture and he is technically the one working to bring in the money (Madeleine might be wealthy but doesn't have to work in a job for it as such)
Thank you :) I think this is exactly it (although I think he has a more "traditional" view than most swedes). And had they had a better image before it would have been just a little flub. But since they already are seen as "far away" from general swedishness and a little more "socialite" than prefered in the royal family, this is just one more thing piled on to make the picture of them even more "irrelevant". I honestly really understand their choice and are very for it. As you may have seen in other threads I have defended Kate's right to be home with her kids and I defend Madeleines right as well. I just predicted why it wouldn't be very well recived in the general public (and turns out I was right).
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  #151  
Old 07-23-2015, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
It's appreciated, but without actually living in the society i'm convinced it's not possible to 100% understand it, maybe 80 or 90% if you're from a similar environment..

In the NL i think the "breadwinner" phrase would have been considered somewhat old-fashioned, but nothing more
Thank you for appreciating this. Some of the (majorly US people it seems?) take it as we are saying that EVERYONE is living the same way which is obviously not the case. Just the most usual.
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  #152  
Old 07-23-2015, 04:49 PM
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Sweden has a 'custom' that everyone must work and or be labelled a throwback to the 1950s?

Maybe Chris knew exactly what he was saying and was sticking it to his new country's customs.

Doesn't seem very 'egalitarian' to me to label anyone who has a different opinion as a caveman.

Little wonder he turned down a Swedish title.
It looks like there was another issue in the interview, which I hadn't intially noticed myself, but apparently was picked up by the Swedish press judging from the article Xenobia posted here. I'm referring specifically to Chris' implicit insinuation that moving to London was something that he, as the breadwinner, had to do in order to get a job that would enable him to provide for his family. Apparently, some people in Sweden took that as an insult to the country, as if Chris was saying that Sweden is an unsuitable country to live for someone who wants to find a decent job.

Of course, last time I checked, Sweden is one of the wealthiest countries in the world (e.g. in per capita GDP) and there aren't many starving Swedes lurking around. Therefore, even if Chris didn't actually mean it that way, he might have sounded over the top on that specific point.
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  #153  
Old 07-23-2015, 05:12 PM
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This post has become a very interesting commentary on various societies and their customs.
No country develops in a vacuum and there are reasons that Sweden has developed a culture where it is more typical for both spouses to work. There is a very high rate of taxation in Sweden and to maintain a good standard of living it has also required that both spouses work.But the people receive a great deal of benefits because of it , free healthcare, education and very generous parental leave to name but a few things.There is also a very strong belief in gender equality that as one poster mentioned during a divorce process a stay at home wife is not entitled to any alimony payments. This in itself would make many women cautious about leaving the workforce. So I would say that a tradition of gender equality with the possibility of financial ruin during a divorce would spur many women to work outside the home.. The same can't be said for Canada where I live. There is still a requirement for alimony in canadian courts because it has been deemed that a stay at home mom has contributed to the wealth of the family by caring for the children , the house, the garden taking care of the bills etc and that this should be recognized. Hence more women or men are comfortable leaving the workplace for a time because the financial cost will probably be less that for a Swedish parent. Having been to Sweden many times I can say without reservation that they are some of the nicest ,funniest and most reasonable people I have ever met , though maybe not the world's best hockey players Hee hee!
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  #154  
Old 07-23-2015, 05:48 PM
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This post has become a very interesting commentary on various societies and their customs.
No country develops in a vacuum and there are reasons that Sweden has developed a culture where it is more typical for both spouses to work. There is a very high rate of taxation in Sweden and to maintain a good standard of living it has also required that both spouses work.But the people receive a great deal of benefits because of it , free healthcare, education and very generous parental leave to name but a few things.There is also a very strong belief in gender equality that as one poster mentioned during a divorce process a stay at home wife is not entitled to any alimony payments. This in itself would make many women cautious about leaving the workforce. So I would say that a tradition of gender equality with the possibility of financial ruin during a divorce would spur many women to work outside the home.. The same can't be said for Canada where I live. There is still a requirement for alimony in canadian courts because it has been deemed that a stay at home mom has contributed to the wealth of the family by caring for the children , the house, the garden taking care of the bills etc and that this should be recognized. Hence more women or men are comfortable leaving the workplace for a time because the financial cost will probably be less that for a Swedish parent. Having been to Sweden many times I can say without reservation that they are some of the nicest ,funniest and most reasonable people I have ever met , though maybe not the world's best hockey players Hee hee!
Haha, thank you Very well summarized. There are many things that shock be about other countries (like the lack of free health care) but that doesn't mean I think they are stupid. So thank you for realizing that we are not "unreasonable". It's just a little case of culture shock.
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  #155  
Old 07-23-2015, 05:51 PM
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Agree, Marlene. This has been a fascinating read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
It's appreciated, but without actually living in the society i'm convinced it's not possible to 100% understand it, maybe 80 or 90% if you're from a similar environment..

In the NL i think the "breadwinner" phrase would have been considered somewhat old-fashioned, but nothing more
In DK the expression is also considered somewhat conservative and amusing. But then we are labelled the "latinos of Scandinavia".

But back to Chris.

If I am to analyze him, based on this interview and previous info I will maintain that the absolute main reasons why Chris in particular is most reluctant to settle in Sweden are:
A) He is not a monarchist and as such not at all interested in being a working part of a royal family.
B) Sweden and the Swedes are too socialists for his personal taste. (*)
C) The political and tax-climate is too socialist for his political taste.
D) Sweden has a very open system in regards to people's private economy I can very well imagine the horror Chris felt when realizing that!
It would also, I imagine, be conflicting with the discretion in regards to his business deals, as another poster pointed out.
E) Chris is unfamiliar with the Swedish financial atmosphere, while he is very familiar indeed with the finance businesses in London and New York. And as personal relations in that world matters, he will necessarily have to be physically present in London a lot of the time. - So provided his wife doesn't have, or intend to have, a more or less full-time job in Sweden it does make sense to live where he works.
Also because Chris will IMO find it only natural that his wife will be present to help him in regards to receptions and business dinners, where a partner is expected.

Apart from all that. I do believe that Chris O'Neil is a conservative person - in the Scandinavian definition of the word. I.e. in this context he considers himself as the primary breadwinner. That he considers himself as the one who is ultimately responsible for securing the well-being of his family, including his wife. It is his responsibility to be there for his wife. That she should support him as well is another matter, but first and foremost he should be there for her.
In other words he conforms to the traditional male role as a family man and in Scandinavian, especially Swedish(!), context, where a marriage is strictly an equal 50/50 partnership, that defines him as conservative.

(*) Keep in mind that in European/Scandinavian context the Obama administration would be defined as center-right, but in no way left wing.
So politically Chris O'Neil may perhaps consider himself a Liberal, but in Scandinavia that would most likely make him a Conservative. I.e. a center-right to right on the political scale.
Also, keep in mind that a political Conservative is not necessarily the same thing as being a conservative person.
Confused? Then you may understand Chris O'Neil.
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  #156  
Old 07-23-2015, 06:23 PM
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Agree, Marlene. This has been a fascinating read.



In DK the expression is also considered somewhat conservative and amusing. But then we are labelled the "latinos of Scandinavia".

But back to Chris.

If I am to analyze him, based on this interview and previous info I will maintain that the absolute main reasons why Chris in particular is most reluctant to settle in Sweden are:
A) He is not a monarchist and as such not at all interested in being a working part of a royal family.
B) Sweden and the Swedes are too socialists for his personal taste. (*)
C) The political and tax-climate is too socialist for his political taste.
D) Sweden has a very open system in regards to people's private economy I can very well imagine the horror Chris felt when realizing that!
It would also, I imagine, be conflicting with the discretion in regards to his business deals, as another poster pointed out.
E) Chris is unfamiliar with the Swedish financial atmosphere, while he is very familiar indeed with the finance businesses in London and New York. And as personal relations in that world matters, he will necessarily have to be physically present in London a lot of the time. - So provided his wife doesn't have, or intend to have, a more or less full-time job in Sweden it does make sense to live where he works.
Also because Chris will IMO find it only natural that his wife will be present to help him in regards to receptions and business dinners, where a partner is expected.

Apart from all that. I do believe that Chris O'Neil is a conservative person - in the Scandinavian definition of the word. I.e. in this context he considers himself as the primary breadwinner. That he considers himself as the one who is ultimately responsible for securing the well-being of his family, including his wife. It is his responsibility to be there for his wife. That she should support him as well is another matter, but first and foremost he should be there for her.
In other words he conforms to the traditional male role as a family man and in Scandinavian, especially Swedish(!), context, where a marriage is strictly an equal 50/50 partnership, that defines him as conservative.

(*) Keep in mind that in European/Scandinavian context the Obama administration would be defined as center-right, but in no way left wing.
So politically Chris O'Neil may perhaps consider himself a Liberal, but in Scandinavia that would most likely make him a Conservative. I.e. a center-right to right on the political scale.
Also, keep in mind that a political Conservative is not necessarily the same thing as being a conservative person.
Confused? Then you may understand Chris O'Neil.

I agree with most of what you wrote and I think it is a fair description of Chris. The only point I'm not entirely sure about is the assumption that he's not a monarchist. From what I understand, Chris is half-British and his sister is married to an Austrian count. The idea of monarchy and nobility therefore shouldn't be entirely foreign to him and his family.

Frankly, I don't know what his personal take on the issue is, but I wouldn't rush to conclude that he's necessarily a republican or anti-monarchist. I think that his decision to decline a royal title and membership of the royal family has more to do with his intention to keep his job in the financial industry and live in the US/UK than with any deep anti-monarchist convictions.
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  #157  
Old 07-23-2015, 06:31 PM
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I agree with most of what you wrote and I think it is a fair description of Chris. The only point I'm not entirely sure about is the assumption that he's not a monarchist. From what I understand, Chris is half-British and his sister is married to an Austrian count. The idea of monarchy and nobility therefore shouldn't be entirely foreign to him and his family.

Frankly, I don't know what his personal take on the issue is, but I wouldn't rush to conclude that he's necessarily a republican or anti-monarchist. I think that his decision to decline a royal title and membership of the royal family has more to do with his intention to keep his job in the financial industry and live in the US/UK than with any deep anti-monarchist convictions.
You may very well be right.

But keep in mind that Chris seems reluctant to be involved with any official SRF activities.
He seems hard pressed even to show up for say gala dinners, something he as a businessman could very well attend, without anyone lifting an eyebrow.
However, if he is republican then he might find it hypocritical to show up at such events. I.e. the woman he loves happens to be royal and so be it. But he seems to have realized recently that it doesn't hurt to join the royal roadshow from time to time.
That's why I think he is republican at heart.

- Another thing is that he as a former bachelor has realized that once you marry, the rules change. Like so many new husbands before him he will have to learn that your wife's family and whatever they come up with of weird traditions is part of the package.
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  #158  
Old 07-23-2015, 07:22 PM
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I'm so glad I don't live in Sweden I had no idea what it was like till all this happened I'm so happy I live in a country were women have a choice. My daughter is a full time mum so is one daughter in law they do heaps of work for their childrens schools and kinders my other daughter in law works her choice but she only works 4 days to avoid full time childcare.
I have a very different view on Sweden and the people now. Poor Chris


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Oh, don't worry. Men are not completely oppressed in Sweden and there not droves of Swedish men seeking asylum in Norway, DK and Finland, so it seems to work. There are just a couple of cultural differences.

But the the gender equality (in Sweden very much so) is a natural consequence of necessity.

Partly economically. The Scandinavian countries are expensive to live in, so two incomes are if not a necessity then certainly preferable.
My wife earns about 40 % of the combined income of our family. The economy wouldn't break down if one of us opted to stay home full time, but after a couple of years we would consider selling a child if we wished to keep our house...
But it's also a necessity talent-wise for the countries. (This may be interpreted as provocative by some but it is certainly not meant so.) The Scandinavian countries are simply not rich enough to allow half of our talent-mass to stay at home.

It has also something with women naturally being entitled to pursue their own careers, also after having children. - The downside of that is that the workforce is less mobile, because a move means two career-changes.

Another matter is that the child-care system is so much geared to children being looked after in day-care facilities of some kind, that there is a very great incentive for women to at least work part time. On top of that daycare facilities are advocated as the best way for children to learn to socialize. (We can debate whether that is correct but that's the view here).

I belong to the last generation of Danes who predominantly had mothers who were full time housewives. So I can see it from both sides and there are of course pros and cons. But from a national-economic view the current system is better.

Just like in Sweden we have maternity leave. I.e a year per child, to be held before the child turns nine, at a reduced income paid for by the state.
Mrs. Muhler opted to have these two years, with 2x3 weeks for me, simply because I back then earned considerably more than she did and because she wished for it. That means she has de facto been a housewife for two years total, something that was indeed very much appreciated by our children.

In other words all this equality-thing may seem somewhat alien at first when introduced to it, but there are practical reasons behind it. And in Sweden in particular ideological reasons.
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  #159  
Old 07-23-2015, 07:46 PM
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Muhler where did I say "poor men" I said poor Chris. You are saying women have choice but if seems to me Chris doesn't. It's he that should fall into line and be like Daniel give up his previous life and attend events etc. Anyway like a previous poster I'm out of here. I have a very different view of the SRF after the last 30 or so posts.
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  #160  
Old 07-23-2015, 07:55 PM
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Muhler where did I say "poor men" I said poor Chris. You are saying women have choice but if seems to me Chris doesn't. It's he that should fall into line and be like Daniel give up his previous life and attend events etc. Anyway like a previous poster I'm out of here. I have a very different view of the SRF after the last 30 or so posts.
Wasn't that implied in your posts?
If not, then I misinterpreted your meaning.

Anyway, Daniel is a special case. He married the Crown Princess, so he has no choice.
Chris O'Neil is in a bit of a limbo, because even though he himself has opted out of the royal show, his wife, as a high ranking royal, has not. Or rather her position is unclear and that means Chris O'Neil's position is unclear.

After all, if this is the most extreme view Chris O'Neil has, then Madeleine and Sweden are indeed fortunate. It's just a minor cultural difference that is being attempted to be explained - and understood...
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