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  #41  
Old 07-22-2015, 05:15 AM
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  #42  
Old 07-22-2015, 05:31 AM
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In Sweden they are conservative. But in this situation, he had to clarify that they dont live off the taxpayers, he works so he cant be at every event. He couldnt give doubts the Srf is supporting them, especially since the media check even on his Rolex. Madde does few events, she is paid nothing for her work at Childhood... So it's Chris that works.
I agree. I understand why he said it, as a smooth way to comment on if they live on taxpayer money. And I'm not complaining on him being conservative. Just pointing out that he is seen as that in our culture.
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  #43  
Old 07-22-2015, 05:36 AM
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That's probably because he is conservative.
And that does not surprise me at all!
He is the type of man who comes home from work. Kiss his wife who is waiting for him with the dinner. Then he'll play a little with the children before putting on his slippers and evening jacket.
All he needs is a pipe, a newspaper and the wireless next to the armchair he is sitting in. He would fit in perfectly in a middle class home anno 1955.

I think the role as a husband to a royal would not suit him well. In that respect he would find a kindred spirit in Prince Henrik in DK! And to some extent perhaps in the Duke of Edinburgh.
While Daniel is well suited to the more egalitarian role he has.

I will also, like you it seems, maintain that Chris O'Neil would find Sweden a trifle too socialist for his taste, not least tax-wise.

But at least he has explained the reasons behind what is being done, whether one agrees with them or not. He is simply arch-conservative.

In the eyes of Chris O'Neil, he is the breadwinner, when he gets a new job, the family moves along and that's it! Madeleine may be a princess, but in his eyes, she is first and foremost Mrs. O'Neil and mother to his children. Whether that has really dawned on her yet remains to be seen.
Agree 100% too!! Especially the last sentence
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  #44  
Old 07-22-2015, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by hernameispekka View Post
I agree. I understand why he said it, as a smooth way to comment on if they live on taxpayer money. And I'm not complaining on him being conservative. Just pointing out that he is seen as that in our culture.
Yes, true. Nobody in Sweden would say this.
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  #45  
Old 07-22-2015, 06:10 AM
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In Scandinavian context and in particular Swedish context, a husband defining himself as "the breadwinner of the family" is considered a conservative statement and something very few Swedish husbands would dream about saying out loud.
In Sweden it is very common for men to define themselves as feminists.

In that light while some, in Sweden in particular, might fume at what Chris said, I personally can't help chuckle because I find it delightfully politically incorrect. - And honest.

This has got nothing to do with Chris being "a sexist pig" or name calling or conservative being a bad thing. It's merely how I look at and interprete what he said based on my cultural background.
- And surely I know better what I mean when I write something, eh?
Indeed, Muhler and thank you for sharing insights into your own and Mr. O'Neill's cultural (I will not use the word 'sexist' because clearly culture is at play here and not gender!) makeup! Spending two weeks in Aarhus, a Danish city that seems lifted straight out of the 1950's, I am indeed curious about cultural role playing in Danish society. I like the egalitarian style that I am seeing, but wonder about the uniformity here...is there a pressure to be like every one else or is individuality encouraged?
By the way, Moesgaard museum is a treasure box!
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  #46  
Old 07-22-2015, 07:03 AM
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I'm not going to quote Muhlers excellent post again, but I agree 100%.

I'm glad Chris gave an interview. And I'm glad that he explained that we can't expect him to turn up at every major royal event. I'm fine with that. But yes, to me (as a swede), the interview underlines my impression that he's very conservative. I'm tempted to use the term "male chauvinist", but I'll wait and see. I think that he's going to clash big time with the swedish egalitarian society in years to come.
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  #47  
Old 07-22-2015, 07:15 AM
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But yes, to me (as a swede), the interview underlines my impression that he's very conservative. I'm tempted to use the term "male chauvinist", but I'll wait and see. I think that he's going to clash big time with the swedish egalitarian society in years to come.
Why should he clash?
Is the "Swedish egalitarian society" not able to accept, that not all people have the same opinions ?
I'm sure he is conservative compared to Swedish men, but "male chauvinist"....?
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  #48  
Old 07-22-2015, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Nordic View Post
Why should he clash?
Is the "Swedish egalitarian society" not able to accept, that not all people have the same opinions ?
I'm sure he is conservative compared to Swedish men, but "male chauvinist"....?
He could easily clash if he says or does something considered non-feminist. People are able to accept different opinions ofc, but it doesn't mean that people like it! And if HE can be seen as the more conservative in a royal family, that tells alot since royal families are ussually in the more conservative end of the spectrum.
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  #49  
Old 07-22-2015, 07:38 AM
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'A feminist husband', good grief. Just because Daniel is happy with being Mr Bernadotte doesn't mean its something for Chris. All of this would have been discussed before the wedding its not a big deal, at least to an outsider like myself.

Given Chris's upbringing in America and the UK, where being a 'bread winner' isn't looked down upon, he can probably only tolerate Swedish culture in small doses. Better he does live in London.
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  #50  
Old 07-22-2015, 07:47 AM
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'A feminist husband', good grief. Just because Daniel is happy being Mr Bernadotte doesn't mean its something for Chris. All of this would have been discussed before the wedding its not a big deal, at least to an outsider like myself.

Given Chris's upbringing in America and the UK, where being a 'bread winner' isn't looked down upon, he can probably only tolerate Swedish culture in small doses. Better he does live in London.

It seems like you're implying that there's something wrong for a man to be a feminist. You're entitled to that opinion, but you need to put all of this in a swedish context.

I think he'll clash with swedish society. That doesn't mean he's a bad person, but his way of thinking (as it's reflected in the interview) is very far from what the average swedish man would have said. That can cause problems in the future.
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  #51  
Old 07-22-2015, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by gerry View Post
Indeed, Muhler and thank you for sharing insights into your own and Mr. O'Neill's cultural (I will not use the word 'sexist' because clearly culture is at play here and not gender!) makeup! Spending two weeks in Aarhus, a Danish city that seems lifted straight out of the 1950's, I am indeed curious about cultural role playing in Danish society. I like the egalitarian style that I am seeing, but wonder about the uniformity here...is there a pressure to be like every one else or is individuality encouraged?
By the way, Moesgaard museum is a treasure box!
You nailed it, Gerry.
This is indeed a cultural difference as we can tell from the national reactions.
I will not go much into Danish mindset and culture because you would be surprised at how different the Scandinavian countries are in regards to how we look at things and this is mainly about Sweden
.
In Sweden most men will call themselves or even define themselves as feminists, usually with genuine conviction because the Swedes are almost obsessively egalitarian, especially in regards to gender issues.
While in Denmark calling himself feminist (they do exist BTW) would be considered downright silly and worse: trying to be politically correct and that is not a compliment!
However, that does not mean that we Danish husbands do not believe women should be equal to men, we certainly do! - Provided they make it on their own, without special considerations...

So in Scandinavia a man defining himself as "the breadwinner" in the family (even if it's true) sounds like something our grandads would say. Simply because the wast majority of women here have been out working since the late 1970's. In fact when you on rare occasions do encounter a housewife with no or minimal income of her own, she really is a novelty and who is met with genuine curiosity. How can you afford that? Don't you feel under stimulated? And so on.

The difference between Sweden and Denmark is that while a man saying "I'm the breadwinner of the family" is about as politically incorrect as you can be in Sweden. In Denmark he would be met with amusement - even on building sites. Followed by the question: "How the Hansen can you afford that? Do you earn that much!?!" Or being assumed that he's got a mailorder bride at home, straight off the plane.
How they would view things from an Icelandic, Finnish or Norwegian perspective I'll leave to others.

-------------------------------------

- I'm glad you are enjoying your stay in DK, especially Aarhus, Gerry.
"Straight out of the 50's?" Because so many buildings are old and low?
As for uniformity. That's the tribal mentality. We are a part of a tribe so we look like the tribe - while at the same time we genuinely believe we are very individual.
You may also have noticed, that even though we are in the middle of the holiday season, the pace is also slower over here.
And one final thing, if you have the time, I strongly suggest you go to the town of Hvide Sande on the west coast. Apart from enjoying the scenery (and the tourists, doing their best to drown themselves...) there is a fish-restaurant at a quay in the harbor there. The fishing boats offload some of their catch at the kitchen side so the fish are literally hardly dead when they are being served and they are big!
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  #52  
Old 07-22-2015, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Nordic View Post
Why should he clash?
Is the "Swedish egalitarian society" not able to accept, that not all people have the same opinions ?
I'm sure he is conservative compared to Swedish men, but "male chauvinist"....?
I dont think he is male chauvinist. I dont think he says anything wrong, he is the breadwinner, not Madde. It's different from Victoria's situation. He acknowledges Madde has a role. Also I find a good thing he wants to live with his family and not in a hotel room... Why should he since Madde does few engagements in a year in Sweden?
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  #53  
Old 07-22-2015, 08:56 AM
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I dont think he is male chauvinist. I dont think he says anything wrong, he is the breadwinner, not Madde. It's different from Victoria's situation. He acknowledges Madde has a role. Also I find a good thing he wants to live with his family and not in a hotel room... Why should he since Madde does few engagements in a year in Sweden?
My own thinking is in line with yours. Maddie does not have a career, she has an increasingly minor and supporting role in the SRF. The fact is that Chris is, indeed, the breadwinner here, and I don't think there is anything wrong from him to suggest so. Some of these reactions could be down to cultural differences, but I do not think there is anything conservative or misogynistic in what he has said.
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  #54  
Old 07-22-2015, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Fra85 View Post
In Sweden they are conservative. But in this situation, he had to clarify that they dont live off the taxpayers, he works so he cant be at every event. He couldnt give doubts the Srf is supporting them, especially since the media check even on his Rolex. Madde does few events, she is paid nothing for her work at Childhood... So it's Chris that works.
And that is it in a nutshell. Chris is not Swedish and I would venture to say that neither he nor Madeleine had given it much thought because the topic had yet to arise. The intense scrutiny of his private life, down to his penchant for collect watches, must have been mind blowing. I think he thought he could do his job from Stockholm and actually believe they thought it would work as well.

However, along came the press and the invasion into what, in Chris's culture, is utterly private and nobody else's business and he reacted with not a little hostility. The nature of his business is built on privacy and discretion, and yet here the press are going through his private finances, intimating that he is involved in dodgy finance and tax fraud.

That he made the decision that he could not live in Sweden and maintain his business, was hardly a surprise. I mean let's face it, if he couldn't keep his own private finances out of the press what chance did he have of keeping anyone else's, and there goes his job. That he or they decided to move was hardly an unpredictable outcome.

He is not precisely 9 - 5, but he works all week and commuting between London and Stockholm was never going to be an easy ask. But, forgive me if am incorrect, Madeleine is on Maternity Leave and when she's ready to come back she can commute to the few engagements she has in a month.

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Originally Posted by xenobia View Post
I'm not going to quote Muhlers excellent post again, but I agree 100%.

I'm glad Chris gave an interview. And I'm glad that he explained that we can't expect him to turn up at every major royal event. I'm fine with that. But yes, to me (as a swede), the interview underlines my impression that he's very conservative. I'm tempted to use the term "male chauvinist", but I'll wait and see. I think that he's going to clash big time with the Swedish egalitarian society in years to come.
I too agree with Muhler in that
Quote:
I find it (Chris's interview) delightfully politically incorrect. - And honest.
Honest, yes, absolutely. But what I have yet to discover is why Chris's culture cannot be accepted as valid and the hostility is reduced to infantile insults calling him at best, conservative and at worst, a male chauvinist pig! Wow, just wow. Seems to me there is a lot of "my way or the highway" going on here.

Fairs fair, he gave Sweden a go, and Sweden tried to roll right over him. They couldn't understand the difference between Prince Daniel, a Swede and wonderful consort who gave up so much he had achieved on his own all for his beloved Victoria, Prince Carl Philip a prince of Sweden, sometime racer and designer and husband to Princess Sofia. Nothing is expected of this couple and then there's plain old Mr Chris O'Neill, not a prince and is a self-employed financier.

Chris has a culture that seems at total odds with that of the Swedes. And yet it seems that he is expected to give away his career, ambitions and perhaps a job he loves, just so he can hang around sponging off the in-laws whilst painting Madeleines toes. If he had that in mind he would have kicked the job into touch and sat back and become a "kept man" before the wedding. And wouldn't everyone just love to howl about the Kings appanage and Chris being paid for the privilege of doing nothing.

Culture is a very strange thing and coming from a country that gave women the vote in September 1883 and equal pay for equal work in 1972. And yet the crystal clear glass ceiling is still sitting there just as it always has. My culture has some major kinks to work out. But I know the parameters because that is how it has alway been so who am I to denigrate Chris because his culture differs from mine.
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  #55  
Old 07-22-2015, 09:07 AM
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I dont think he is male chauvinist. I dont think he says anything wrong, he is the breadwinner, not Madde. It's different from Victoria's situation. He acknowledges Madde has a role. Also I find a good thing he wants to live with his family and not in a hotel room... Why should he since Madde does few engagements in a year in Sweden?
Yes, I agree that their logic is sound :)
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  #56  
Old 07-22-2015, 09:12 AM
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And that is it in a nutshell. Chris is not Swedish and I would venture to say that neither he nor Madeleine had given it much thought because the topic had yet to arise. The intense scrutiny of his private life, down to his penchant for collect watches, must have been mind blowing. I think he thought he could do his job from Stockholm and actually believe they thought it would work as well.

However, along came the press and the invasion into what, in Chris's culture, is utterly private and nobody else's business and he reacted with not a little hostility. The nature of his business is built on privacy and discretion, and yet here the press are going through his private finances, intimating that he is involved in dodgy finance and tax fraud.

That he made the decision that he could not live in Sweden and maintain his business, was hardly a surprise. I mean let's face it, if he couldn't keep his own private finances out of the press what chance did he have of keeping anyone else's, and there goes his job. That he or they decided to move was hardly an unpredictable outcome.

He is not precisely 9 - 5, but he works all week and commuting between London and Stockholm was never going to be an easy ask. But, forgive me if am incorrect, Madeleine is on Maternity Leave and when she's ready to come back she can commute to the few engagements she has in a month.

I too agree with Muhler in that Honest, yes, absolutely. But what I have yet to discover is why Chris's culture cannot be accepted as valid and the hostility is reduced to infantile insults calling him at best, conservative and at worst, a male chauvinist pig! Wow, just wow. Seems to me there is a lot of "my way or the highway" going on here.

Fairs fair, he gave Sweden a go, and Sweden tried to roll right over him. They couldn't understand the difference between Prince Daniel, a Swede and wonderful consort who gave up so much he had achieved on his own all for his beloved Victoria, Prince Carl Philip a prince of Sweden, sometime racer and designer and husband to Princess Sofia. Nothing is expected of this couple and then there's plain old Mr Chris O'Neill, not a prince and is a self-employed financier.

Chris has a culture that seems at total odds with that of the Swedes. And yet it seems that he is expected to give away his career, ambitions and perhaps a job he loves, just so he can hang around sponging off the in-laws whilst painting Madeleines toes. If he had that in mind he would have kicked the job into touch and sat back and become a "kept man" before the wedding. And wouldn't everyone just love to howl about the Kings appanage and Chris being paid for the privilege of doing nothing.

Culture is a very strange thing and coming from a country that gave women the vote in September 1883 and equal pay for equal work in 1972. And yet the crystal clear glass ceiling is still sitting there just as it always has. My culture has some major kinks to work out. But I know the parameters because that is how it has alway been so who am I to denigrate Chris because his culture differs from mine.
I don't look down on him or his culture. But this is a kind of "relationship" between Chris and the Swedish people and we all know how hard it is when different cultures in a relationship start crashing together. So it's only natural that now "we" are working out a few kinks until "we both" understand each others cultures more and can find a nice balance. I honestly both understand and respect their choice, it was just a bit of an awakening to how big the culture difference actually is, and I think that might have been what they were going through as well.
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  #57  
Old 07-22-2015, 09:37 AM
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I don't look down on him or his culture. But this is a kind of "relationship" between Chris and the Swedish people and we all know how hard it is when different cultures in a relationship start crashing together. So it's only natural that now "we" are working out a few kinks until "we both" understand each others cultures more and can find a nice balance. I honestly both understand and respect their choice, it was just a bit of an awakening to how big the culture difference actually is, and I think that might have been what they were going through as well.
Agreed. This is about understanding that Chris seems to be born, raised and living in a world with quite a different cultural context than the average swede. Any swedish man that would go out and say things in public like "I'm the breadwinner" would be looked upon like he stepped out of the 1950's. Our society is very different compared to many others. I get the impression that Chris doesn't really get that, so that's why I think that he will clash quite a bit with the media and society in the future.
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Old 07-22-2015, 09:59 AM
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Perhaps the (or some) Swedes aren't as tolerant or open about differences as they thought they were.



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  #59  
Old 07-22-2015, 10:04 AM
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Perhaps the (or some) Swedes aren't as tolerant or open about differences as they thought they were.



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Was that a jab at us or Swedes in general? We very much said we accepted it but that it differs alot from our general experiences. That is not at all non-tolerant.
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Old 07-22-2015, 10:04 AM
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Perhaps the Swedes aren't as tolerant about differences as they thought they were.
I don't think that anyone has suggested that swedes are tolerant when it comes to gender differences. I would say that most swedes are very intolerant when it comes to issues on gender inequality and gender norms. Gender equality is a very big thing here. Being conservative is just about the most shocking thing you can do here.

In a way, it's quite interesting to compare this to all the criticism against princess Sofia. I think that a lot of people from other countries are upset about her past as a model and other things that are frequently discussed. Most swedes doesn't care. Being (semi)nude isn't a big thing. But try to be conservative... that's an easy way to clash with your surroundings. In other countries it's the other way around. I think it all comes down to the different cultural values and traditions.
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