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  #181  
Old 07-24-2015, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Michiru-Kaiou View Post
There is always so much talk about Prince Carl Philip or Princess Madeleine (and his spouse) renouncing their rights and live as "plain, old" Mr./Mrs.... Now, is this even possible under Swedish law? Can they even give up their titles and succession rights if they want to? Or has the only "chance" gone by by marrying with consent?

(Disclaimer: I do not support the idea that they should renounce their titles, I am just curious. And it definitely is something to consider before demanding a renunciation.)

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I honestly have no clue :P And have never (to my memory) suggested it :P But I have no idea!
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  #182  
Old 07-24-2015, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by xenobia View Post
Just a note. Imagine that prince Harry falls in love with (and marries) a famous french-canadian lawyer. Then imagine that she gives an interview (in french, since she hasn't learned english) where she explains that the family has decided to move to Quebec. She is making more money than Harry, who just has his charity work and can fly home now and then, and her business is based there. Since she provides for their family, it's more practical for them to live in Quebec.

I think that situation gives a little glimpse of what Chris' interview is stirring up in Sweden.
I guess that even if they would have marrried without Consent they would have keept their titles. But in Carl Philip's case Sofia would not have become Princess neither would any children they possible have. And Madeleine's children would not have been titlted.
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  #183  
Old 07-24-2015, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post

If Madeleine wants to leave Sweden for good and opt out of royal duties, she should give up her HRH title and her succession rights. The problem is I don't think that's what she wants. My impression is that she is moving to London just to comply with Chris' will, even though she'd rather stay in Sweden, and will try to show up in the home country for occasional royal duties sporadically. For her, that is actually the worst PR outcome possible since it reinforces a public perception that she lives outside Sweden, disconnected from Swedish life, but shows up as a princess of Sweden when it is convenient for her to do so, for example in grand events and on major dates. That hurts her already low popularity.
Why would she need to give up her Titles and succession rights if she would do no royal duties. In Norway Märtha Louise is still Princess albeit without HRH but she has keept her succession rights. And she does no royal duites anymore. Or in Luxembourg Pricne Guillaume and Prince Felix are still in line of succession albeit they live abroad and have Jobs.
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  #184  
Old 07-24-2015, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
Why would she need to give up her Titles and succession rights if she would do no royal duties. In Notrway Märtha Louise is still Pricness albeit without HRH but she has keept her succession rights. And she does no royal duites anymore. Or in Luxembourg Pricne Guillaume and Prince Felix are still in line of succession albeit they live abroad and have Jobs.
I agree. Most people seem to think that the apanage is tied to the title. I can agree though that they shouldn't have given the kids titles if Madeleine in the long run will opt out of royal life. But the money is in no way tied to it, it's tied to the engagements.
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  #185  
Old 07-24-2015, 12:02 PM
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The line of discussion which contained derogatory remarks about Sweden as a country and the Swedish culture has been deleted. Another line of off-topic discussion has been move to a new thread about Gender Equality that can be found here:
http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f187/gender-equality-38964.html

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  #186  
Old 07-24-2015, 12:28 PM
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Maybe it's fun to compare what the dutch gossip press picked up from the interview?
Zweedse royal volgt taalles met dochter (1)|Prive| Telegraaf.nl
Headline: Swedish royal takes language lessons with daughter (1)
no mention of the breadwinner phrase

translation
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  #187  
Old 07-24-2015, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
Maybe it's fun to compare what the dutch gossip press picked up from the interview?
Zweedse royal volgt taalles met dochter (1)|Prive| Telegraaf.nl
Headline: Swedish royal takes language lessons with daughter (1)
no mention of the breadwinner phrase

translation
Haha, that line was so sweet that they are learning together :)
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  #188  
Old 07-24-2015, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
I guess that even if they would have marrried without Consent they would have keept their titles. But in Carl Philip's case Sofia would not have become Princess neither would any children they possible have. And Madeleine's children would not have been titlted.
Carl Gustaf's uncles lost their titles when they married "unequally" and were excluded from the line of succession under the old (pre-1979) law. I suppose the same would apply to Madeleine.

Answering the question, I don't think there is any provision in Swedish law for someone to give up succession rights. Madeleine has one easy way out though: it suffices that she converts to Roman Catholicism. That would probably please her Catholic husband and would automatically remove her from the line of succession.

In terms of comparison to other countries, Martha Louise of Norway is an HH, not an HRH, and not a member of the Norwegian royal house, so the comparison doesn't really apply. Younger children of monarchs who are HRHs and retain membership of the royal house generally take up official engagements, e.g. Joachim in Denmark; Andrew, Edward and Anne in the UK; Astrid and Laurent in Belgium. King Felipe VI's sisters in Spain don't have an official role now, but, again, although they are still HRHs, they are no longer official members of the Royal House, unlike Madeleine who still is.

The most controversial example is Constantijn of the Netherlands, who lives and works in Brussels (but is now moving back to Amsterdam) and rarely attends public events in his capacity as member of the Dutch Royal House. Nevertheless, since his brother's accession, he has stepped up somewhat his public appearances, attending for example the State Opening of the Dutch Parliament every year. Princess Laurentien, on the other hand, is involved with several state bodies and NGOs in the Netherlands. Again, they are both far more engaged with Dutch affairs than Madeleine is with Swedish affairs.
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  #189  
Old 07-24-2015, 01:42 PM
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Really the pr department of the srf strikes again!
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  #190  
Old 07-24-2015, 04:59 PM
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Princess Madeleine of Sweden's husband Chris O'Neill defends himself - hellomagazine.com
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  #191  
Old 07-24-2015, 05:26 PM
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I've been reading through this topic and as an American who also was a stay at home mom, Girl Scout leader, soccer mom and a few other things thrown in the mix, I have to say that reading the interview given by Chris O'Neill made me understand the man a bit more. The Swedish Royal Family is something that I am just beginning to know and understand through here and the people who know way more than me. Remember, this is just my opinion.

First and foremost, this interview has laid to rest for me any notion that Chris could ever be the type of man that was out to bag a bride for status, money, fame or any other self serving motive. This is a man that also grew up with more step siblings than most of us have cousins and perhaps the home was not one where Mom and Dad and kids sat down for the evening meal and the kids rushed to the door because Daddy's home. Perhaps Chris has found what his dream was in Maddie and that is stability of home and family. I have to giggle at the image of a proud Chris O'Neill that takes pride in his responsibility to provide for his family and that's not only financial but also to love and protect and nurture. This would be a family that as the children grow older that when something concerns all of them, they would hold a family council. Sexist? I don't think so.

Perhaps Chris and Maddie are deciding on what's best for the family and leaving out the "I wants" and for right now it'll be best they live in London. I can see this family being progressive enough that they don't have to serve each other or live in each other's pockets but support each other. They're secure enough in each other that they can allow each other to be the best possible person they can be. If I'm not mistaken, a flight from London to Stockholm is a pretty quick one and very less stressing than transatlantic flights and who's to say that this family won't have a secondary home in Sweden?

This still is a relatively young marriage and I've yet to see one where everything is cut, dried and pasted exactly in picture perfect order and there's happily ever after guaranteed or your money back. Their story has just begun.
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  #192  
Old 07-24-2015, 07:15 PM
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very nice post, I agree with your summation.
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  #193  
Old 07-25-2015, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by hernameispekka View Post
I wonder if his view of royalty was scewed by his sister being married to.. I think it's a count? So maybe he thought it was a hollow thing like that... Everything went so faast for them so maybe it didn't sink in enough? A bit of me thinks that she just makes a perfect "trophy wife" with a golden title attached, and that she might have lived like that in NY. But there is alot more to her title...
That has been my belief all along, except I wouldn't call Madeleine a trophy wife. But having a sophisticated woman versed in diplomacy had to be an added bonus. I don't think Chris had the smallest clue about a modern functional monarchy and what it entails. He has moved in the highest society mixing with titled people and even those with royal titles. But he had not encountered the real deal.

Suddenly he's engaged to a Princess and with his dual US/UK citizenship he would probably only think in terms of the younger British royals if he thought at all. And Madeleine? I think she was happily moving and shaking for her mother's charity 'World Childhood Foundation' and only putting on an evening dress every now and then. Her personal jewellery both real and yet discrete. Nothing special. I don't know that he even knew about the Nobels, except perhaps Peace Prize and that's in Norway.

Chris and Madeleine seemed to meet, fall in love, get engaged, get married, get pregnant, move back to NY, have baby, get pregnant again, move back to Sweden, arrange to move to another country, have second baby. And they have only been married two years . . . that's right, two! I don't think either of them was prepared for the situations that have arisen in Sweden or the severity of the criticism. Because wow that's fast and I mean really, really fast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
Maybe it's fun to compare what the dutch gossip press picked up from the interview?
Zweedse royal volgt taalles met dochter (1)|Prive| Telegraaf.nl
Headline: Swedish royal takes language lessons with daughter (1)
no mention of the breadwinner phrase

translation
Well, that says it all. Cute that he's learning Swedish with his daughter. She's probably faster than she is scambling to keep up. Lol. Obviously they've got their male chauvinist pigs under control there!
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  #194  
Old 07-25-2015, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by xenobia View Post
And so it begins. This is taken from a major paper in southern Sweden. It's ironic, but it's triggered by Chris' remarks in the interview, as I suspected...

Rough translation:

"A princess of Sweden must be able to live and work in our nation without starving between banquets".

Karl Oskar left Sweden to find a living for his wife and children overseas. (Refers to the US-emigrants in the late 1800's, my remark). Now history repeats itself. Chris O'Neill moves his family to London, where financial soil is more profitable than the poor and unfriendly moors in Sweden. O'Neill has in an interview with Expressen explained that he sees no other way out. The family needs to be supported. As a father and husband he is forced to shoulder the heavy responsibility. "I'm the one who puts the food on the family. I have to primarily think about our little family" (Expressen 21.7).

So it's that bad. It's was all about the basics. The food! In the royal house, someone risks going hungry away from the dinner table. You can imagine the Oliver Twist-like scenes at the castle: "Please, sir, I want some more!"

It simply can't go on like this. The king, the head of the royal house, get an apanage of somewhere between125 and 130 million SKE every year. And the word apanage is derived from the ancient latins "apanare", which means "provide with bread". But apparently the isn't much left over for princess Madeleine, who's private fortune apparently doesn't give them money enough to cover the essentials.

I therefore suggest a national campaign in favor of the distressed family O'Neill-Bernadotte. A princess of Sweden must be able to live and work in the kingdom without starving between banquets.

”En prinsessa av Sverige måste kunna leva och verka i riket utan att behöva svälta mellan banketterna” - Sydsvenskan
For those who understand swedish, the writer of this chronicle, Per Svensson and Margareta Gotthardsson, the reporter of Svensk Damtidning, were interviewed and discussing about Chris's interview at Sveriges Radio (audio file)
Kungabarnen som förebilder - P1-morgon _ Sveriges Radio

I will not translate everything. Per Svensson said that he doesn't really know what Madeleine does as a princess, because it hasn't been told much in the media. And there is a progressive conflict that the royal family wants to maintain their "specialty" and at the same time live as common life as possible and he isn't sure if that is possible. Svensson defended his sarcastic chronicle and said that it doesn't tell very good things about Sweden's ability to provide for it's royal family if we must get help from an american businessman so that a princess is provided for. That argument shouldn't have been used, the reason is totally different. They want to live like a normal family and decide where they will live. That is fine, but then they perhaps should not be members of the royal house. Gotthardsson said that of course the members of the Royal family have big responsibility as the role models of equality. She thinks that Madeleine and Chris just want to do as they want and live in London.Gotthardsson was asked what she thought about Chris's citation, she said that she thinks that it was a very strange citation. The crown princess is a very egalitarian person and of course Madeleine also, she has her own money, she can provide for herself. Gotthardsson hopes that this was just an odd and clumsy expression from Chris. Svensson said that the royal family wants to live almost like common Swedes and the members have very various backgrounds, it may work well for short term, but for long term the royal house should maintain it's "specialty" and differ from the common Swedes. And he thinks that the king is aware of that and doesn't want that Madeleine leaves the royal house because every change at the royal house could be negative for it in the long run.
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  #195  
Old 07-27-2015, 08:41 AM
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How about this is the new modern monarchy, Chriss and Maddie are living their life the way they see fit. If it were such a big problem the King would surely do something.
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  #196  
Old 07-29-2015, 12:22 AM
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The new photos have been moved to the Princess Leonore and Prince Nicolas, News and Pictures Part 1: June 2014 - thread.
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  #197  
Old 07-29-2015, 11:41 AM
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Good point made princess carmen.
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  #198  
Old 07-30-2015, 09:02 PM
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Let me see if I can summarize it: first you have many people who complain about these "lazy-do-nothing" royals who are supported from the public purse; then you have a person married to a royal who insists on being a self sufficient working person, support his family etc. and to avoid any conflict of interest he declines a title etc; and you still find people to complain -not just complain, get offended- along the lines of "oh has it come to this that we need someone to support our princess" Go figure.

It seems to me someone wants to create a controversy where there is none.... Can't win.
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  #199  
Old 07-30-2015, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by LadyFinn View Post
For those who understand swedish, the writer of this chronicle, Per Svensson and Margareta Gotthardsson, the reporter of Svensk Damtidning, were interviewed and discussing about Chris's interview at Sveriges Radio (audio file)
Kungabarnen som förebilder - P1-morgon _ Sveriges Radio

I will not translate everything. Per Svensson said that he doesn't really know what Madeleine does as a princess, because it hasn't been told much in the media. And there is a progressive conflict that the royal family wants to maintain their "specialty" and at the same time live as common life as possible and he isn't sure if that is possible. Svensson defended his sarcastic chronicle and said that it doesn't tell very good things about Sweden's ability to provide for it's royal family if we must get help from an american businessman so that a princess is provided for. That argument shouldn't have been used, the reason is totally different. They want to live like a normal family and decide where they will live. That is fine, but then they perhaps should not be members of the royal house. Gotthardsson said that of course the members of the Royal family have big responsibility as the role models of equality. She thinks that Madeleine and Chris just want to do as they want and live in London.Gotthardsson was asked what she thought about Chris's citation, she said that she thinks that it was a very strange citation. The crown princess is a very egalitarian person and of course Madeleine also, she has her own money, she can provide for herself. Gotthardsson hopes that this was just an odd and clumsy expression from Chris. Svensson said that the royal family wants to live almost like common Swedes and the members have very various backgrounds, it may work well for short term, but for long term the royal house should maintain it's "specialty" and differ from the common Swedes. And he thinks that the king is aware of that and doesn't want that Madeleine leaves the royal house because every change at the royal house could be negative for it in the long run.
I really don't see how Chris's expression was necessarily odd or clumsy. Yes, Madeleine has her own money but my understanding is that it's in the form of a trust fund and/or an inheritance. Depending on how those funds have been invested it may not be easy - or advantageous from the point of view of taxes - for her to access them for day to day expenses. Or maybe she and Chris have decided to keep those funds intact and reinvest the interest so they can grow into an even more secure inheritance for their own children. It's quite possible that Chris is, in fact, the breadwinner in their family in that they actually live off what he makes from his job. Isn't that a better scenario than having them both supported by Swedish taxpayers?
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Old 07-30-2015, 11:15 PM
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Madeleine in Stockholm. https://instagram.com/p/5xGUlsGaBR/
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