Christening of Princess Adrienne: June 8, 2018


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wartenberg7 said:
Well, but it just didn´t come from Nicolas....!


And you seemed to have lost the scenes back then in 1986...?! William was neither running around nor rolling barefeeted on the floor of Westminster Abbey. The Prince and Prcss of Wales would have never dared that to happen in front of TV cameras and, above all, the Queen.?:lol:
As far as I know this particular wedding can be rewatched on you tube. Perhaps you have a look at it again...?
I

Anyway, it is up to themselves how they raise their children. In the end I don´ t care. But believe me when I say I would never accept this behaviour, both by a son or a daughter, in front of cameras or not!
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Will's behavour was bad enough, and I believe the queen was pretty annoyed about it.. and since then, I think that usually little bridesmaids and pages have been removed from wedding services, once they have arrived.. because the RF don't want any further embarrassing scenes. If Leonore was acting up more than William, she was pretty bad IMO and I think that she needs a nanny who will control her.. She's going to be a public figure, even as a child, and has to learn to behave appropriately esp in church.
 
Somebody said:
:previous: The Dutch did at Ariane's christening...
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20 oktober 2007: Doop Prinses Ariane | De Oranjes
Ah yes, the one where the reverent eventually said " I think it's time for the kids to go to bed now" ? that was a total kids party

Let's just be glad that the other kids in the SRF stayed relatively close to their parents and didn't join in the fun ;)

Leonore seems to be very much an Outdoors-kid imo, and as some have said, once she grows a little older and goes to school she'll get used to being indoors a bit more; looking back, maybe if P.Estelle had been there Leonore might have focussed on her and would have been relatively out of the limelight, but that's hindsight and poor Estelle was sick otherwise i'm sure she'd loved to have been there
 
Lee-Z said:
20 oktober 2007: Doop Prinses Ariane | De Oranjes
Ah yes, the one where the reverent eventually said " I think it's time for the kids to go to bed now" ? that was a total kids party

Let's just be glad that the other kids in the SRF stayed relatively close to their parents and didn't join in the fun ;)

Leonore seems to be very much an Outdoors-kid imo, and as some have said, once she grows a little older and goes to school she'll get used to being indoors a bit more; looking back, maybe if P.Estelle had been there Leonore might have focussed on her and would have been relatively out of the limelight, but that's hindsight and poor Estelle was sick otherwise i'm sure she'd loved to have been there
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I remember at Sverre Magnus (?)'s christening, or I might be confusing it with Ariane's here; that the Norwegian royal children were playing with the candles in church and running about energetically - it goes to show that even royal children have their 'moments' as much as ordinary children do. ? I agree with the poster who said that as long as Leonore's behaviour isn't disrupting the flow or performances during the services, it's fine for now. I'm sure there are also a lot of other examples of royal children showing their cheeky and lively sides in public: I can think back to Isabella of Denmark helping to "clean" the windows of the palace when she was little, Savannah Phillips just yesterday shutting up Prince George, etc etc. I used to have a different opinion on Leonore's behaviour, but now it just seems that it's her personality, especially if we consider these examples as well as Madeleine's own behaviour at that age.
 
Imo the issue was that especially during the sermon (and also during the song when she had her tantrum) she was disrupting the service. Nobody was paying attention to the preacher... Running around her mom when Adrienne had received the order was less problematic from that perspective.

However, I don't like the way the children at Harry and Meghan's wedding were reduced to props either so especially in a christening service I am glad they are there with their family.
 
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Children were not props at Harry and Meghan's wedding, taking into consideration their comfort they were not required to sit through a long boring service with cameras on them.
Leonore's behavior was much worse than Williams when he was a child as stated he wasn't in the middle of the aisle rolling around. I pretty much don't care about how she was acting but I can believe her parents don't discipline her enough; many modern parents don't seem to know how to teach their children how to interact with the community.
 
From what I saw, and I watched the whole of it on a YouTube video, Leonore behaved very well for most of the service. It was only at the end that she started to get active, and that's understandable imo. :flowers: I think Madeleine sees herself in Lenore and has a more compassionate sensibility regarding her daughter.
 
Another thing in this discussion is how people in general are expected to behave in church. I worked for the Church of Sweden for several years. Children acting like kids usually do is nothing new or annoying to the clergy or churchgoers. I'm not saying that kids are encouraged to scream or run around in the church, but they are usually allowed to roam the floor and are often invited up to watch things like pouring water at baptisms more closely. So yes, Leonore is a free spirit. But I think that would have been a bigger problem in other countries, with a different expectation on how you behave in church. I didn't see anything at Adriennes baptism that I haven't seen in church during other baptisms, with other children.
 
Madeleine really should know better if Leonore is how Madeleine was at that age. Queen Silvia was away from home a lot of time and up to now Madeleine is mostly a stay-at-home mother.

Spirited child or not, every child should learn how to behave in certain situations. A church is a solemn location, not a playground.

I always feel a sort of "there we will go again" when Leonore is scheduled to attend. She has yet to show that she knows how to behave herself and that is where her parents come in. Parenting is parenting, not being friends with your child. There are plenty of other locations and opportunities for her to run around like a wild child.

From what I see up to now in public, I find them seriously lacking.

And that is my opinion.
 
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I agree and given they knew what was coming, they could for example have an extra nanny take care of Leonore when it got too much, that was when rolling on the floor.
Getting her out of the picture and slowing her down, resurfacing afterwards.
 
If the clergy is fine with Leonore rolling on the floor, why would she be taken out by a nanny? I just don't get it.
 
Thank you to the Swedish churchgoers who have contributed to the discussion of small children’s behavior during church services. All of them agree that the behavior we saw was perfectly acceptable and normal. Cultural differences, however slight, is what makes this international forum a great place to be, learn, and accept each other.
 
Once again the photos are totally ruined with a huge amount of photoshop.
 
Not hard to guess why no family picture was included. Leonore (or Nicolas) most likely was not cooperative so they decided on a picture wit Adrienne and parents instead.
 
I saw all the fuss here before I had a chance to watch the service online and I have to say...is that all there was?

I saw a four year old behave very well for her age for a very long time. Until she didn't, but even then, it was within the realm of normal misbehavior for a child of her age and addressed pretty quickly by her parents. Chris tried an approach that didn't work at first, trying to silently get her attention to tell her to come back to her seat (doesn't work if the child doesn't look your way!), but once he realized there was no alternative to getting out of his seat and adding to the distraction he scooped her up and handed her off to family on the pew behind.

Madeleine did laugh about the way Leonore circled around her at the end, but given that things were basically over and this was, as people have pointed out, the kind of service that is meant to be a celebration where children are welcome to be children and not one that is meant to be sober and solemn, that didn't seem problematic to me. When Leonore rolled on the floor, on the other hand, nobody laughed it off or ignored it; Madeleine had her hands busy with a fussing baby but was clearly seen whispering at Chris to take care of things...which he did. As for the photos where she's behind people, it looked from the last couple of pictures in the shoot that the adults were surprised to realize she was doing it and probably hadn't even realized during the first few shots. And once they did realize, they decided they were finished rather than let her keep doing it.

They're in a very tough position. She's quite spirited, so it's going to take her a little longer to learn how to be restrained at these sorts of events. She's still at the age where it is developmentally normal for a tantrum to sometimes follow correction. There is surely nothing they want to avoid more than a public tantrum on camera. It's one thing to have video clips circulating of your kid being a happy (if inappropriate for the occasion) kid, it's another to have video clips of your kid being angry and/or loud. But bottom line, she's only four! She's still a very small girl. She's clearly learning to do better (just look at the first 3/4 of this christening to see her doing much better than we've seen from her in the past), but of course she's got more to learn. That's just how it is with young kids.
 
loonytick said:
I saw all the fuss here before I had a chance to watch the service online and I have to say...is that all there was?

I saw a four year old behave very well for her age for a very long time. Until she didn't, but even then, it was within the realm of normal misbehavior for a child of her age and addressed pretty quickly by her parents. Chris tried an approach that didn't work at first, trying to silently get her attention to tell her to come back to her seat (doesn't work if the child doesn't look your way!), but once he realized there was no alternative to getting out of his seat and adding to the distraction he scooped her up and handed her off to family on the pew behind.

Madeleine did laugh about the way Leonore circled around her at the end, but given that things were basically over and this was, as people have pointed out, the kind of service that is meant to be a celebration where children are welcome to be children and not one that is meant to be sober and solemn, that didn't seem problematic to me. When Leonore rolled on the floor, on the other hand, nobody laughed it off or ignored it; Madeleine had her hands busy with a fussing baby but was clearly seen whispering at Chris to take care of things...which he did. As for the photos where she's behind people, it looked from the last couple of pictures in the shoot that the adults were surprised to realize she was doing it and probably hadn't even realized during the first few shots. And once they did realize, they decided they were finished rather than let her keep doing it.

They're in a very tough position. She's quite spirited, so it's going to take her a little longer to learn how to be restrained at these sorts of events. She's still at the age where it is developmentally normal for a tantrum to sometimes follow correction. There is surely nothing they want to avoid more than a public tantrum on camera. It's one thing to have video clips circulating of your kid being a happy (if inappropriate for the occasion) kid, it's another to have video clips of your kid being angry and/or loud. But bottom line, she's only four! She's still a very small girl. She's clearly learning to do better (just look at the first 3/4 of this christening to see her doing much better than we've seen from her in the past), but of course she's got more to learn. That's just how it is with young kids.
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Sorry, I'm not a parent, so I don't have experience on how to "make" children behave, but, in that kind of situation, shouldn't the parents simply tell the kid that, if he/she misbehaves, he/she will have to stay home with the nanny next time ? Or would that be considered too harsh ?
 
Mbruno said:
Sorry, I'm not a parent, so I don't have experience on how to "make" children behave, but, in that kind of situation, shouldn't the parents simply tell the kid that, if he/she misbehaves, he/she will have to stay home with the nanny next time ? Or would that be considered too harsh ?
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And more precisely: what is the problem with a kid behaving like a kid at a baptism? Why would they threaten her with staying at home? The clergy are used to kids, and Leonore rolling on the floor is just fine at a baptism.
 
xenobia said:
And more precisely: what is the problem with a kid behaving like a kid at a baptism? Why would they threaten her with staying at home? The clergy are used to kids, and Leonore rolling on the floor is just fine at a baptism.
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I suppose it depends on your cultural tradition. Where I come from, children are not expected to roam around freely in church during a service, especially when sacraments are being administered. As kids, we were told to be silent and pay attention to what the priest was saying/doing, and if we started moving or making noises, we would be discreetly told by a parent to be quiet, or we would be removed from the room if we didn't (i.e. a parent would take us out of the church until we "calmed down"). But I am Catholic, not Lutheran, so maybe it's different in the Church of Sweden.


In any case, rolling on the floor in public or taking off your shoes in a formal occasion would be considered inappropriate even if it were not in church, but, for example, in a party with other adults or in a restaurant. But, again, I suppose my family is/was more conservative than the average Swedish family.
 
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loonytick said:
I saw all the fuss here before I had a chance to watch the service online and I have to say...is that all there was?

(...)

They're in a very tough position. She's quite spirited, so it's going to take her a little longer to learn how to be restrained at these sorts of events. She's still at the age where it is developmentally normal for a tantrum to sometimes follow correction. There is surely nothing they want to avoid more than a public tantrum on camera. It's one thing to have video clips circulating of your kid being a happy (if inappropriate for the occasion) kid, it's another to have video clips of your kid being angry and/or loud. But bottom line, she's only four! She's still a very small girl. She's clearly learning to do better (just look at the first 3/4 of this christening to see her doing much better than we've seen from her in the past), but of course she's got more to learn. That's just how it is with young kids.
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Leonore had a tantrum during the service as well. During the song after the sermon when Nicolas was sitting on her chair she was jumping up and down because she didn't get her way (luckily the choir was louder and it wasn't during the sermon or someone else talking), then the camera moved away (on purpose it looked like) and when the family was in full view again she had gotten her way with Nicolas being handed over to his cousin on the second row (they almost forgot to take him with them when leaving).
 
xenobia said:
And more precisely: what is the problem with a kid behaving like a kid at a baptism? Why would they threaten her with staying at home? The clergy are used to kids, and Leonore rolling on the floor is just fine at a baptism.
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I'm sure that different cultural customs, religions, etc. all play into this but honestly, in my family and my religion (Catholic) that behavior would have lasted all of about two seconds before someone snatched her up and removed her. We might have let the shoe removal slide as long as it was calmly and discreetly done but there is absolutely no way that the rest of that would have been allowed to occur.

I understand that it's probably more difficult for Chris and Madeleine that it would be for the rest of us since we don't have the eyes of the world on us or the criticism that comes with it but honestly, by the age of four, there's absolutely no reason why a child shouldn't be able to sit appropriately in church for an hour for a christening or even just simply a church service. And even though it sounds hypocritical since I try hard not to judge other people's parenting skills or parenting decisions, being in the public eye is just simply different than being in a normal private family. And being in the public eye does come with a different set of expectations whether that's right or wrong. And quite frankly, I expect that most parents in the public eye find that they have to be more strict with their children than they might otherwise be in order to avoid just exactly this kind of thing and the headlines that come with it.
 
Mbruno said:
I suppose it depends on your cultural tradition. Where I come from, children are not expected to roam around freely in church during a service, especially when sacraments are being administered. As kids, we were told to be silent and pay attention to what the priest was saying/doing, and if we started moving or making noises, we would be discreetly told by a parent to be quiet, or we would be removed from the room if we didn't (i.e. a parent would take us out of the church until we "calmed down"). But I am Catholic, not Lutheran, so maybe it's different in the Church of Sweden.

In any case, rolling on the floor in public or taking off your shoes in a formal occasion would be considered inappropriate even if it were not in church, but, for example, in a party with other adults or in a restaurant. But, again, I suppose my family is/was more conservative than the average Swedish family.
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And I fully respect that you have a different cultural tradition, including what's okay at a baptism. Being more conservative than the average Swedish family is actually very easy ? The thing that I find strange is when other posters apply their traditions to an occasion (like this baptism) and think that there is something wrong. Is Leonore a free spirited child? Yes, she is. More so than her siblings and cousins. And I'm also sure that she'll learn how to behave in different surroundings and respect other peoples traditions. But a baptism here isn't an occasion where children have to sit tight on a chair and not make a noise. The clergy are used to lots of children moving around in church during baptisms, and as long as they aren't screaming (so others can't hear) or destroying something, it's just not a big deal.
 
_Heather_ said:
I'm sure that different cultural customs, religions, etc. all play into this but honestly, in my family and my religion (Catholic) that behavior would have lasted all of about two seconds before someone snatched her up and removed her. We might have let the shoe removal slide as long as it was calmly and discreetly done but there is absolutely no way that the rest of that would have been allowed to occur.

I understand that it's probably more difficult for Chris and Madeleine that it would be for the rest of us since we don't have the eyes of the world on us or the criticism that comes with it but honestly, by the age of four, there's absolutely no reason why a child shouldn't be able to sit appropriately in church for an hour for a christening or even just simply a church service. And even though it sounds hypocritical since I try hard not to judge other people's parenting skills or parenting decisions, being in the public eye is just simply different than being in a normal private family. And being in the public eye does come with a different set of expectations whether that's right or wrong. And quite frankly, I expect that most parents in the public eye find that they have to be more strict with their children than they might otherwise be in order to avoid just exactly this kind of thing and the headlines that come with it.
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You're assuming that this was an occasion where children were supposed to sit appropriately and quietly in church. If it were a funeral, I would agree with you. But it wasn't. I've been to several baptisms and also worked for the church of Sweden, and this was one of the more tidy and well organised baptisms. Leonore moving around just wasn't that big of a deal. If posters here hadn't made such a fuzz about it, I would honestly not have thought that much about it. She's just a kid. The church of Sweden, including the clergy, are use to kids being kids.
 
thank you Xenobia, for telling us what your customs are in Sweden as a churchgoer and a worker in the church. And, Mbruno, if all you had to do was to "tell" children what to do, how easy it would be.
I too was brought up Catholic and all of the modern Catholic churches we attended had "cry" rooms at the back of the church, a room with a window to be able to see, but so that nobody could hear you.
I also remember Danish princess Isabella as a very provocative toddler and youngster and she has turned out beautifully.
Also, I really think it is against the rules of the forum to criticize children isn't it mods? It certainly applies in the fashion threads
 
As far as I can tell it is mostly Madeleine and Chris that are (indirectly) criticized. It seems most people understand that she is 4 years old and will do what can be expected of someone that age with a certain character and upbringing.
 
Mbruno said:
But I am Catholic, not Lutheran, so maybe it's different in the Church of Sweden.
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_Heather_ said:
I'm sure that different cultural customs, religions, etc. all play into this but honestly, in my family and my religion (Catholic) that behavior would have lasted all of about two seconds before someone snatched her up and removed her. We might have let the shoe removal slide as long as it was calmly and discreetly done but there is absolutely no way that the rest of that would have been allowed to occur.
.
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It has noting to do with being Catholic, but with being American. Apparently, Americans have issues with kids behaving like kids. If you go into any Catholic Church in Spain, Italy, France or other European or South American country you would see kids behaving like normal children and no one would give them a thought.

Could you guys please stop this berating of a four year old child. It’s making me so uncomfortable I’m not able to read this thread. As someone who works with children with various issues, like autism, Asperger's, ADHD, ADD, the amount of judgmental posts in this thread is making me horrified.
 
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A good number of the Swedish Royal Family did not look comfortable at all with Leonore's behavior. There were moments when Silvia, Princess Christina and Princess Birgitta looked unhappy, even Victoria looked confounded a time or two. So whatever the norms in European churches might be, it seems as if the SRF were uncomfortable with the situation.

I don't blame Leonore at all. She's a small child. However, I do think Chris and Madeleine and by extension the SRF may need to strategize how to handle things a little differently. Leonore has a ton of energy and seems to need a lot of stimulation. She actually needs more structure and support than say Estelle or Nicolas at these events. And as she was bored it might make sense to have a Nanny on hand to take her out.
 
loonytick said:
I saw all the fuss here before I had a chance to watch the service online and I have to say...is that all there was?

I saw a four year old behave very well for her age for a very long time. Until she didn't, but even then, it was within the realm of normal misbehavior for a child of her age and addressed pretty quickly by her parents. Chris tried an approach that didn't work at first, trying to silently get her attention to tell her to come back to her seat (doesn't work if the child doesn't look your way!), but once he realized there was no alternative to getting out of his seat and adding to the distraction he scooped her up and handed her off to family on the pew behind.
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Agree 100%. :flowers: I saw the same thing.

loonytick said:
They're in a very tough position. She's quite spirited, so it's going to take her a little longer to learn how to be restrained at these sorts of events. She's still at the age where it is developmentally normal for a tantrum to sometimes follow correction. There is surely nothing they want to avoid more than a public tantrum on camera. It's one thing to have video clips circulating of your kid being a happy (if inappropriate for the occasion) kid, it's another to have video clips of your kid being angry and/or loud. But bottom line, she's only four! She's still a very small girl. She's clearly learning to do better (just look at the first 3/4 of this christening to see her doing much better than we've seen from her in the past), but of course she's got more to learn. That's just how it is with young kids.
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I see it the same. Too much is being made of this. :huh: Other royal families tend to 'sanitize' what the public sees, I think, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. (Charlotte had a temper tantrum on the tarmac in some foreign country: we can all sympathize). I stand in awe of Madeleine's poise. :flowers: A born mother.
 
Time to move on from the topic of Leonore's behavior & parenting tips.

More posts on the matter will be deleted.

Some -parts of- harsh posts have been deleted.

 
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