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  #21  
Old 05-24-2018, 07:39 PM
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If Louis or any other younger sons of William are given a peerage, such as Duke, then I think Charlotte should be given one too.

Princess Royal is a style, not a title (peerage), so it wouldn't be the same.

alt.talk.royalty FAQ: British royalty and nobility

Yes, it would be the end of a 300-year old tradition but the now discarded male-preference succession to the Crown was an even older tradition.

But I also agree with Mbruno: "I dont see the reason why hereditary peerages should be created for princes of the UK and then linger for generations outside the Royal Family properly."

William can give peerage titles to all of his children, sons and daughters, but make them non-hereditary.
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  #22  
Old 05-29-2018, 05:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawin View Post
If Louis or any other younger sons of William are given a peerage, such as Duke, then I think Charlotte should be given one too.

Princess Royal is a style, not a title (peerage), so it wouldn't be the same.

alt.talk.royalty FAQ: British royalty and nobility

Yes, it would be the end of a 300-year old tradition but the now discarded male-preference succession to the Crown was an even older tradition.

But I also agree with Mbruno: "I dont see the reason why hereditary peerages should be created for princes of the UK and then linger for generations outside the Royal Family properly."

William can give peerage titles to all of his children, sons and daughters, but make them non-hereditary.
This may be the perfect generation to make the switch to non-hereditary. Assuming no law changes impact Beatrice, the Duke of York title will not be passed on. If Charles makes Edward the Duke of Edinburg, as suggested, he could make that non-hereditary. James would still become an Earl. Assuming William outlives Charles, the Duke of Cambridge title merges with the crown. That would just leave Harrys new title as possibly being hereditary and maybe the LPs for that could be changed before he has children.
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  #23  
Old 05-29-2018, 08:36 PM
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If Princess Anne dies during the reign of her nephew King William V, is there a written law of how soon he can give the title of Princess Royal to Charlotte?
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  #24  
Old 05-29-2018, 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post
If Princess Anne dies during the reign of her nephew King William V, is there a written law of how soon he can give the title of Princess Royal to Charlotte?
No, its conferred at the discretion of the reigning sovereign. William could give it to Charlotte the day of Anne's death, a week or a year or ten or twenty years later, etc., or never.
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  #25  
Old 05-29-2018, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post
If Princess Anne dies during the reign of her nephew King William V, is there a written law of how soon he can give the title of Princess Royal to Charlotte?
No. There is no rule about when or if the title is given.

Historical precedence:
-Anne received it in 1987- Mary, Countess Harewood died in 1965. (22 years)
-Mary received it in 1932- Louise died January 4, 1931 (3 days short of 1 year anniversary of Louise's death, Mary got the title on January 1 1932)
-Louise received it in 1905- Victoria (German empress) died in 1901 (4 years)
-Victoria received it in 1841- Charlotte (queen of Wurtemberg) died in 1828 (13 years)
-Charlotte received it in 1789- Anne (princess or orange) died in 1759 (30 years)
-Anne got it in 1727- Louisa Maria had died in 1712 (15 years)
-Louise Maria got it in 1692- Mary had died in 1660 (32 years)
-Mary- was the first and was bestowed the title in 1642 at age 11


The longer waits often had to do with no one to fill the role.
-Charlotte died 12 years before Queen Victoria had her first daughter. Victoria later bestowed the title upon her 1 year old daughter.
-When Anne of Orange died, there was no one to fill the title. Charlotte was born 8 years later. Charlotte's father waited till she was 22 to give her it.
-Anne was only 3 when Louise Maria died. She was given the title at the age of 18


Mary and Louisa Maria got it at birth. It was the tradition from the French court that they adopted, that the eldest daughter of the sovereign, was Princess Royal. Louisa Maria though it wasn't common to use it for her, it fell out of fashion between Mary and Anne.


It really depends on when Anne dies really. If Charlotte is an adult, and a full working royal when Anne dies, it may only be a few years before she is given the title. Or they may choose to wait as done with Anne.
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  #26  
Old 05-29-2018, 09:52 PM
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As stated above I believe that bestowing the style 'Princess Royal' on Princess Charlotte will happen at a suitable time and in a suitable manner. As to equal primogeniture for the aristocracy, I believe there is a very thick brick wall as to that notion.

The rules on the royal succession have changed for the crown. It is very notable that not only did that not also apply to the aristocracy, but male entail remains, thereby rendering widows and daughters homeless . . . still!
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  #27  
Old 05-30-2018, 01:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post
If Princess Anne dies during the reign of her nephew King William V, is there a written law of how soon he can give the title of Princess Royal to Charlotte?
No. He could do it that same day or wait 20+ years. It is the same with how long the King waits to create his heir apparent Prince of Wales - totally at the discretion of the monarch of the day.
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  #28  
Old 05-30-2018, 01:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post
If Princess Anne dies during the reign of her nephew King William V, is there a written law of how soon he can give the title of Princess Royal to Charlotte?
No, and strictly-speaking I don't think there's even a law requiring that titles be unique (there are two different earldoms of Mar, for example). There could be a dozen Princesses Royal and, though it would be silly, it would be perfectly lawful.
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  #29  
Old 05-30-2018, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
No. There is no rule about when or if the title is given.

Historical precedence:
-Anne received it in 1987- Mary, Countess Harewood died in 1965. (22 years)
-Mary received it in 1932- Louise died January 4, 1931 (3 days short of 1 year anniversary of Louise's death, Mary got the title on January 1 1932)
-Louise received it in 1905- Victoria (German empress) died in 1901 (4 years)
-Victoria received it in 1841- Charlotte (queen of Wurtemberg) died in 1828 (13 years)
-Charlotte received it in 1789- Anne (princess or orange) died in 1759 (30 years)
-Anne got it in 1727- Louisa Maria had died in 1712 (15 years)
-Louise Maria got it in 1692- Mary had died in 1660 (32 years)
-Mary- was the first and was bestowed the title in 1642 at age 11


The longer waits often had to do with no one to fill the role.
-Charlotte died 12 years before Queen Victoria had her first daughter. Victoria later bestowed the title upon her 1 year old daughter.
-When Anne of Orange died, there was no one to fill the title. Charlotte was born 8 years later. Charlotte's father waited till she was 22 to give her it.
-Anne was only 3 when Louise Maria died. She was given the title at the age of 18


Mary and Louisa Maria got it at birth. It was the tradition from the French court that they adopted, that the eldest daughter of the sovereign, was Princess Royal. Louisa Maria though it wasn't common to use it for her, it fell out of fashion between Mary and Anne.


It really depends on when Anne dies really. If Charlotte is an adult, and a full working royal when Anne dies, it may only be a few years before she is given the title. Or they may choose to wait as done with Anne.
Louisa Maria was never Princess Royal. Her father James II/VII lost his throne in 1688, four years before she was born, although he continued to claim the throne (and the right to grant styles and titles).

Charlotte was called Princess Royal from birth but wasn't officially granted the style until 1789.

This website contains details about the seven princesses who have held the style Princess Royal:

alt.talk.royalty FAQ: British royalty and nobility
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  #30  
Old 05-30-2018, 08:44 AM
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Yes, Princess Charlotte will be the next Princess Royal in her father’s reign.
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  #31  
Old 05-30-2018, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by MARG View Post
As stated above I believe that bestowing the style 'Princess Royal' on Princess Charlotte will happen at a suitable time and in a suitable marriage. As to equal primogeniture for the aristocracy, I believe there is a very thick brick wall as to that notion.

The rules on the royal succession have changed for the crown. It is very notable that not only did that also apply to the aristocracy, but male entail remains, thereby rendering widows and daughters homeless . . . still!



Technically, I think entails have been abolished in British law. What may happen is that the estate may be held in trust by the title holder, but other family members normally also derive capital gains or other forms of income from the trust.



I would appreciate if someone with greater knowledge of UK property law could please clarify.
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  #32  
Old 05-30-2018, 09:09 AM
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I remember reading somewhere that with regard to Princess Anne (the present Princess Royal): The Queen had offered to make her Princess Royal sometime earlier than 1987 and Princess Anne refused. Possibly in line with the notion that she and her husband (Mark Phillips) didn't want any titles or styles for him or their children.

What changed in 1987 was that Anne and Mark's marriage was breaking down and Anne no longer wanted to be known as HRH The Princess Anne, Mrs. Mark Phillips.

Accepting the Princess Royal title was a convenient way of changing that without being too public about the marriage breakdown. She could of course have been styled HRH The Princess Royal, Mrs. Mark Phillips and presumably she would have been had everything been happy-smiley at home. Instead she changed her style to HRH The Princess Royal.

Later, after divorcing Phillips and marrying Tim Laurence in 1992, she kept the same style: HRH The Princess Royal.

After Laurence was knighted Anne could have been (and still could be) styled HRH The Princess Royal, Lady Laurence but I'm quite sure she won't ever adopt that style now and just stay with HRH The Princess Royal.
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  #33  
Old 05-30-2018, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Leaside View Post
I remember reading somewhere that with regard to Princess Anne (the present Princess Royal): The Queen had offered to make her Princess Royal sometime earlier than 1987 and Princess Anne refused. Possibly in line with the notion that she and her husband (Mark Phillips) didn't want any titles or styles for him or their children.

What changed in 1987 was that Anne and Mark's marriage was breaking down and Anne no longer wanted to be known as HRH The Princess Anne, Mrs. Mark Phillips.

Accepting the Princess Royal title was a convenient way of changing that without being too public about the marriage breakdown. She could of course have been styled HRH The Princess Royal, Mrs. Mark Phillips and presumably she would have been had everything been happy-smiley at home. Instead she changed her style to HRH The Princess Royal.

Later, after divorcing Phillips and marrying Tim Laurence in 1992, she kept the same style: HRH The Princess Royal.

After Laurence was knighted Anne could have been (and still could be) styled HRH The Princess Royal, Lady Laurence but I'm quite sure she won't ever adopt that style now and just stay with HRH The Princess Royal.
That is interesting. Just as a clarification: Removing the Mrs. Mark Phillips upon being given the title Princess Royal was in line with precedent. The official Gazette shows that the preceding Princesses Royal normally were styled HRH The Princess Royal, rather than HRH The Princess Royal, Countess of Harewood or HRH The Princess Royal, Duchess of Fife.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wbenson View Post
No, and strictly-speaking I don't think there's even a law requiring that titles be unique (there are two different earldoms of Mar, for example). There could be a dozen Princesses Royal and, though it would be silly, it would be perfectly lawful.
It was even traditional in certain abolished monarchies, such as Italy and Sicily, where all princes/princesses in the senior line held the title of Prince/ss Royal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawin View Post
If Louis or any other younger sons of William are given a peerage, such as Duke, then I think Charlotte should be given one too.

Princess Royal is a style, not a title (peerage), so it wouldn't be the same.

alt.talk.royalty FAQ: British royalty and nobility

Yes, it would be the end of a 300-year old tradition but the now discarded male-preference succession to the Crown was an even older tradition.
An option that would continue the 300-year-old tradition while giving the same treatment to females and males would be to always confer the title Prince/ss of Wales on the eldest child of the Queen or King, the title/style Prince/ss Royal on the second child, and dukedoms on the other children.
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  #34  
Old 10-28-2018, 06:38 PM
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If Princess Charlotte is Princess Royal and marries a nobleman of Great Britain, she will take her husband's title. For example, if he is already an Earl, she would be Countess. If he is the heir of the Earl, she would be Viscountess. This can get confusing. It reminds me of Princess Mary being Viscountess Lascelles, Princess Royal, and Countess of Harewood.
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