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  #361  
Old 07-24-2010, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millmoll View Post
Is anyone else not impressed with Kate's work shy attitude - I don't think she has had a "proper" job since leaving uni - not exactly a good role model for the future !
How do you define "proper" job?

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Originally Posted by Frankinscence View Post
Please pardon my ignorance, but does one need to be accorded special rights - by you or anyone - in order to post an opinion, even if it is one with which you don't like? Is this an opinion forum on royals and their associates or not? Perhaps I'm in the wrong place.

I think this lady makes some valid points. This isn't a court, so the same rules of evidence do not apply. Come to think of it: not even in a criminal court would one have to provide evidence from every single citizen to order to have a submission accepted.

However, the matter of 'credibility' holds true in this case. Credibility is peripheral to evidence; it's how judges (in my country, at least) actually decide cases when there is a lack of irrefutable evidence in civil cases. And, sometimes, it's used as an adjunct to decisions and obviously to assess whether or not a witness can be trusted (ie has credibility).

This poster makes a valid point: Kate doesn't have any credibility because there is no evidence that she has really worked a day in her life. The odd sighting of her rifling through boxes or attending some seminar do not count.

However, regarding the matter of whether or not specific posters - including you - wish to believe that she does is entirely different.

I'm sorry, but you come across as being very harsh on this poster; I hope that this poster will not be too intimidated to return, as I happen to think she makes valid points.
Sorry, but I am responding to someones opinion, with a counter opinion. Which I have every right to do. I haven't said anything bad or out of line to the poster, so what is your problem with me replying to his/her comment?

The assumption that people will not like her when and if she becomes Queen, is not right, unless this poster can predict the future he/she has no idea what the public will think of her. This has nothing to do with being in a court, I am asking the poster to prove her claim, i'm not going to believe something that cannot be proved.
Kate is a private citizen, how are we supposed to get evidence of her working? Are the press suppose to follow her 24/7 so we can have evidence that she works?

I'm responding to a post, the way I always do, this poster has differing views to mine so i'm giving my opinion on what she says, there is nothing wrong with that is there?
And I also hope that this poster comes back and responds to what I have said.
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  #362  
Old 07-24-2010, 01:45 PM
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You stated that a poster 'has no right' to an opinion, which I thought was harsh and against forum rules. But, perhaps you didn't mean it literally? I don't think it's a good idea for you and I to continue to debate this, and I'm sincerely hoping you will agree to that. Actually, I apologise if it came across as being anything more than my being a little startled, actually.

But my opinion stands. A person may make a valid assumption easily whereupon there is no evidence to refute it. And, with respect, anyone can make an assumption on what people will think in future based upon what is being stated now - and it has nothing to do with predicting 'the future' or anything else so dramatic. It's really commonplace. It's how economic theory is written, how businesses and politics run. It's not new or novel.

We're really just looking at things from a different side of the coin, actually and I will explain further.

I brought up the references to court simply because you seem very concerned with people proving their opinions according to your requests. The standards you have insisted upon are higher than what is required in a formal court hearing. Fair enough, if you insist. But I'm making the point that they are making a valid opinion, just as you are. An opinion doesn't cease to be valid because the burden of proof doesn't satisfy you. Perhaps I'm wrong, but this is the impression I'm getting from your posts.

But if you must insist, the fact that Kate has no desire or cannot otherwise provide evidence that she is actually working only proves my point, not yours. Please note your own words:

'... i'm not going to believe something that cannot be proved ...'

Right, you said it. In your own words, Kate can not or will not prove that she works. They can both lead to the same assumptions.

So, further, don't you think it's only fair that others will speculate and form opinions that Kate doesn't work? After all, they cannot see the proof that she does. Honestly, it's just human nature and logic.

I totally appreciate that you view things differently, as is your right. But asking someone to provide evidence that something doesn't exist (ie Kate not working) does not make sense to someone who views things with a curious and/or skeptical mind. Some people want to provide the benefit of doubt, others do not. It doesn't make anyone wrong.

Peace.
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  #363  
Old 07-24-2010, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankinscence View Post
You stated that a poster 'has no right' to an opinion, which I thought was harsh and against forum rules. But, perhaps you didn't mean it literally? I don't think it's a good idea for you and I to continue to debate this, and I'm sincerely hoping you will agree to that. Actually, I apologise if it came across as being anything more than my being a little startled, actually.
If you mean this quote

Quote:
you have no right to say what other people believe
I do not even mention the word opinion, all I said was that they don't have the right to speak for what other people may not believe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankinscence View Post
But my opinion stands. A person may make a valid assumption easily whereupon there is no evidence to refute it. And, with respect, anyone can make an assumption on what people will think in future based upon what is being stated now - and it has nothing to do with predicting 'the future' or anything else so dramatic. It's really commonplace.
People cannot think now that Kate is not doing her work as a princess honestly, because she is not a princess. So this claim cannot be based on something that is felt now.

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Originally Posted by Frankinscence View Post
We're really just looking at things from a different side of the coin, actually and I will explain further.

I brought up the references to court simply because you seem very concerned with people proving their opinions according to your requests. Fair enough, if you insist. But I'm making the point that they are making a valid opinion, just as you are. An opinion doesn't cease to be valid because the burden of proof doesn't satisfy you. Perhaps I'm wrong, but this is the impression I'm getting from your posts.
Like I said, I do not want them to prove their opinions, I want them to prove things that they state as fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankinscence View Post
But if you must insist, the fact that Kate has no desire or cannot otherwise provide evidence that she is actually working only proves my point, not yours. Please note your own words:

'... i'm not going to believe something that cannot be proved ...'

Right, you said it. In your own words, Kate cannot prove that she works.

So, further, don't you think it's only fair that others will speculate and form opinions without having to provide solid proof to you?

I totally appreciate that you view things differently, as is your right. But asking someone to provide evidence that something doesn't exist (ie Kate not working) does not make sense.

Peace.
I've become slightly confused, and this has nothing to do with your post, it has to do with the lack of my sleep in the past few nights. I'm going to read back over the post you first commented on I think, and see where I asked the poster about Kate's work.

You are right that Kate cannot prove she is working, and people cannot prove that she is working because that would be an invasion of privacy. All I can go on, as ever is what the press find out, now it is some what unlikely that they would make up the story that she is working for her parents, most of the press over here tend to pick one royal to really go for.
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  #364  
Old 07-24-2010, 02:07 PM
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I should be in bed, also. We can pick this up tomorrow, if you wish. I feel that I'm losing something in the comprehension department. Good night. :)
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  #365  
Old 07-24-2010, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankinscence View Post
I think this lady makes some valid points. This isn't a court, so the same rules of evidence do not apply. Come to think of it: not even in a criminal court would one have to provide evidence from every single citizen to order to have a submission accepted.
Welcome to the forums Frankinsence! Yes, this is a forum where everyone's opinions are very well welcomed but when a statement is made (e.g. "Lady XYZ caught red handed with a copy of Internet for Dummies in her hands while driving a motorcycle at 4 am!) to keep things from going way off base, its the general rule to provide sources where you obtained the information. Not "evidence" per se but a source that supports the statement. Of course, if its the DM or NotW type or someone known to "fudge" news items we all have a laugh about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankinscence View Post
This poster makes a valid point: Kate doesn't have any credibility because there is no evidence that she has really worked a day in her life. The odd sighting of her rifling through boxes or attending some seminar do not count.
I don't believe that working a full time job is the basis of anyone's credibility. If it is, boy am I in trouble! What she does with her time I don't believe is any of my business either. Trust me, if I had the ways and means, I would be doing a lot more traveling and shopping myself. If Kate wishes to spend her days counting sheep on the Wales countryside and it makes her happy, then by all means count them (and I bet get a good nights sleep too!).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankinscence View Post
I'm sorry, but you come across as being very harsh on this poster; I hope that this poster will not be too intimidated to return, as I happen to think she makes valid points.
I've made what I thought were valid points too that were wrong or just misinformed. What I do love about TRF is that there are a wealth of people here that have corrected me or shown me where my thinking might not be on the right track or just plain out changed my opinion of things.
If it wasn't for people like Lumutqueen, who I look forward to trailing around the threads, my enjoyment of these forums would not be the enriching experience it is. This is what these forums are about.
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  #366  
Old 07-24-2010, 02:29 PM
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Thanks, it seems like a good forum, with intelligent posters who like to think. I have a better understanding now, my mistake.

I'll respond properly tomorrow. You make some good points.
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  #367  
Old 07-24-2010, 05:53 PM
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Kate Middleton is my role model She will be very popular if she marries William
But Diana is a Legend now The Queen of our hearts
Could Kate become a Legend like sweet Diana? Only God and the Angels know it
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  #368  
Old 07-24-2010, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Anne83 View Post
Kate Middleton is my role model She will be very popular if she marries William
But Diana is a Legend now The Queen of our hearts
Could Kate become a Legend like sweet Diana? Only God and the Angels know it
The term People's Princess was coined by Tony Blair at the time of Diana's death which I kind of thought fitting as people all over still admired her and loved her in spite of the fact that she was no longer a royal princess. From the Panorama interview, Diana stated she wanted to be "Queen of people's hearts". Many thought that was a slur to HM but I honestly think she never intended it to be interpreted that way... just that she cared about people no matter who they were and its reflected today as you see William and Harry with their patronages.

Basically though I see Diana having legend and iconic status because the media made her one. Diana did a lot of good for a lot of people and causes but yet she also was in the media's cross hairs for things that were blatantly self serving and manipulative. She was and is no angel but was a human soul with ups and downs and bright and dark sides just like the rest of us have.

Will Kate be a legend like Diana? I hope not. She's a totally different person and will be portrayed over the years to come (if she marries Will) as herself. Comparing her to Diana is the last thing we can do as they are totally different people, in different types of relationships and with totally different expectations of the lives they lead/led.
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  #369  
Old 07-24-2010, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
Why should she do all these things, until she is engaged? Mary and Marie of Denmark, never learnt Danish until they were engaged to their husbands. As I have said before if she gets involved with causes, with charities, which by the way she has done, the press are going to jump on that and say that she is getting ready for an engagement, she knows she is going to be William's wife, and when it doesn't happen people aren't going to be happy.
Oddly enough I guess I`ve been assuming that William and Kate have some kind of agreement to marry. I don`t know much about Kate but I`m assuming at least that she`s a smart girl...would she stay in a relationship for seven years without a promise of future commitment?

I guess I don`t really understand William and Kate`s protracted courtship. Yes, it might look like she was overstepping her bounds by preparing herself for royal life...but on the other hand, if she`s just "with" William year after year without any engagement and without any career moves on her part, she does look like someone who`s just basically...waiting. And I didn`t use to have any opinion on Kate at all, positive or negative. But this relationship has been going on for such a long time.

Edited to add: I don`t feel like this contributes to the Kate vs. Diana discussion at all, so the moderators can feel free to move it...
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  #370  
Old 07-25-2010, 02:30 AM
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Osipi: when I used the term 'credibility' I meant it in the narrow sense of Kate having a job. I did not mean that generally. Goodness, I'm not that shallow! I believe a person should have a balanced approach to life, or one's values skew, IMO.

But, really, the girl is not married, she does not have children, or other extraneous responsibilities. Unless she is ill, there is no excuse for her not to work. In the other thread, I discussed the future role, for which she covets, requires 'hard work'. William's future consort is not a part-time gig.

lumutqueen (from the H & C thread): Kate's work record is truly paltry. She's almost 30 and she looks pitiful, IMO, compared to myself and others I know, as well as those who hold the same opinion and values as me. There is no evidence anywhere that Kate has worked a full day in her life! That, from my perspective, is truly shocking.

Now, she swanned around for about 18 months doing diddly squat, except going on lavish vacations with William, shopping, attending parties, nightclubs, etc. She got the part-time job at Jigsaw because William allegedly knew it was bad for both of them for her to be seen as an idle girl-about-town. There is evidence to suggest this is true, because allegedly, HM said: "And what does she do all day". Further reports came that Kate's lack of work was known as "The Kate Problem". Wow, if true, that's potent and poignant.

I think one must remember the work ethic of HM. I relate to that, as my family work like trojans. I'm a bit more slack compared to those in my family who work 12 hour days in their 60s. I find able people who WON'T work repugnant (read: not people who are unable to work due to illness or disability) - and that has nothing to do with money or class. You either have a work ethic or you don't, and you don't get it overnight. It has to be nurtured. Kate won't suddenly get a work ethic once she marries; that is fanciful. And, even if she does: what does that say about her? That she can only get motivated when she either had to, or wants to? Good grief! She'll have a lot of boring and distasteful matters that she'll have to deal with if she marries William ...

Now, can I just say that perception is almost everything in life. Reality takes a back seat.
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  #371  
Old 07-25-2010, 11:49 AM
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^I agree with the credibility part.
It's a given that being princess is not a modern position (the job definition is, for all intend and purpose: trophy wife) but that doesn't mean princesses to be should not have modern qualities.

Kate seems to me straight out of a Jane Austin novel. Almost all the current crown princesses have achievements and have proven that they can make a mark in the world and commend the respect of their peer.
Kate is almost 30 and I see no hint that she has a career, that she is financially independent (something her siblings seem to have achieved) and she has still not shown any indication that she is would be able to stand on her own two feet in the real world. At almost 30, this is downright pathetic, imo.
I think this model of womanhood was acceptable 50 years ago, or for the generation of my mother or grandmother, but I cannot see how Kate can earn the respect of my generation (and if she is to become Queen, she'll need it).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
I do see her doing a lot of duties and working with a lot of charities if and when she enters the Firm but to do so beforehand would be rather presumptuous.
I completely disagree.
Charity work has nothing to do with being royal. Millions of ordinary people are active in their communities. That would not show her to be presumptuous but caring about something else other then her self-interests.

What would be presumptuous would be to do charity the way royals do, i.e., in the form of patronage, showing up to glamourous charity galas as the headliner, etc. ( which, ironically, is exactly why she has been rumored to be preparing to do starting the fall). I see absolutely no issue with her doing some hand-on charity work.
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  #372  
Old 07-25-2010, 12:13 PM
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And pray tell me where is she going to do "hands on" charity work without the tabloids getting wind of it and headlines of "Waity Katie wanna be princess"
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  #373  
Old 07-25-2010, 01:15 PM
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^???

1. What a pathetic headline that would be. As I already said, hand-on charity work does not scream 'princess', it screams 'charitable person'.

2. You think doing charity work would harm her reputation and get her bad press? I can't see how it would but even so, it's not like she's getting good press these days doing nothing.
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  #374  
Old 07-25-2010, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankinscence View Post
Osipi: when I used the term 'credibility' I meant it in the narrow sense of Kate having a job. I did not mean that generally. Goodness, I'm not that shallow! I believe a person should have a balanced approach to life, or one's values skew, IMO.

But, really, the girl is not married, she does not have children, or other extraneous responsibilities. Unless she is ill, there is no excuse for her not to work. In the other thread, I discussed the future role, for which she covets, requires 'hard work'. William's future consort is not a part-time gig.

lumutqueen (from the H & C thread): Kate's work record is truly paltry. She's almost 30 and she looks pitiful, IMO, compared to myself and others I know, as well as those who hold the same opinion and values as me. There is no evidence anywhere that Kate has worked a full day in her life! That, from my perspective, is truly shocking.

Now, she swanned around for about 18 months doing diddly squat, except going on lavish vacations with William, shopping, attending parties, nightclubs, etc. She got the part-time job at Jigsaw because William allegedly knew it was bad for both of them for her to be seen as an idle girl-about-town. There is evidence to suggest this is true, because allegedly, HM said: "And what does she do all day". Further reports came that Kate's lack of work was known as "The Kate Problem". Wow, if true, that's potent and poignant.

I think one must remember the work ethic of HM. I relate to that, as my family work like trojans. I'm a bit more slack compared to those in my family who work 12 hour days in their 60s. I find able people who WON'T work repugnant (read: not people who are unable to work due to illness or disability) - and that has nothing to do with money or class. You either have a work ethic or you don't, and you don't get it overnight. It has to be nurtured. Kate won't suddenly get a work ethic once she marries; that is fanciful. And, even if she does: what does that say about her? That she can only get motivated when she either had to, or wants to? Good grief! She'll have a lot of boring and distasteful matters that she'll have to deal with if she marries William ...

Now, can I just say that perception is almost everything in life. Reality takes a back seat.
Just out of curiosity when you say evidence what are you looking for exactly? The owner of Jigsaw gave an interview a while ago where she talked about Kate working there. Would that do you? It is probably somewhere in the many, many threads about her and William. Other than that unless she invites a member of the British press to follow her for a day I don't think you will ever know how much she does or doesn't work during the day.
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  #375  
Old 07-25-2010, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Idriel View Post
^I agree with the credibility part.
It's a given that being princess is not a modern position (the job definition is, for all intend and purpose: trophy wife) but that doesn't mean princesses to be should not have modern qualities.

Kate seems to me straight out of a Jane Austin novel. Almost all the current crown princesses have achievements and have proven that they can make a mark in the world and commend the respect of their peer.
Kate is almost 30 and I see no hint that she has a career, that she is financially independent (something her siblings seem to have achieved) and she has still not shown any indication that she is would be able to stand on her own two feet in the real world. At almost 30, this is downright pathetic, imo.
I think this model of womanhood was acceptable 50 years ago, or for the generation of my mother or grandmother, but I cannot see how Kate can earn the respect of my generation (and if she is to become Queen, she'll need it).I completely disagree.
Charity work has nothing to do with being royal. Millions of ordinary people are active in their communities. That would not show her to be presumptuous but caring about something else other then her self-interests.

What would be presumptuous would be to do charity the way royals do, i.e., in the form of patronage, showing up to glamourous charity galas as the headliner, etc. ( which, ironically, is exactly why she has been rumored to be preparing to do starting the fall). I see absolutely no issue with her doing some hand-on charity work.
Her family has said that she works within the business. It is not a huge business but it is a growing business that has supported the family in a fairly nice lifestyle for many years. If she is working for the business I would presume that she is being paid a wage and is therefore finically independent. If her and William end tomorrow there is no reason that she cannot continue to work for the business, continue to make it grow, take over when her parents retire and support any family she may have in the future in a fairly nice lifestyle. You know, have working in and building this business as her career.

It is a bit insulting to the millions of us around the world who choose to enter into the family business to constantly have it described as not a real job or not a career.

And in keeping in the topic of the thread I don't think anyone would want to have the type of popularity of Diana had. I think it became an like addiction to her and she became someone who would do anything no matter what the cost to maintain it, yet at the some time she hated it. I suppose she didn't know how to handle it, I don't think anybody could.
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  #376  
Old 07-25-2010, 03:31 PM
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Will she more popular? I think not in this way like Diana. I think the people know too much about her. Or think they know her. Diana was only 19, the people dind´t know her well and see this adorable, pretty bride, who married into the old family. In this times with internet, TV etc. it will be more difficult to win the hearts of the commoner.
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  #377  
Old 07-25-2010, 05:04 PM
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Her family has said that she works within the business.
The debate about the nature and seriousness of Kate's employment within the family business (or even whether she still has said employment) has been had a thousand times. There are the ones who think she has a significant job and actual career, other who don't. Check past posts for the pro and cons arguments.

For the record, I have never said working for your parents does not constitute a valid career. Kate's brother has a company that is backed and endorsed by Party Pieces, I think he has a career. Ivanka Trump works for her father, she has a career too and works bloody hard at it.
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  #378  
Old 07-25-2010, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Idriel View Post
Charity work has nothing to do with being royal. Millions of ordinary people are active in their communities. That would not show her to be presumptuous but caring about something else other then her self-interests.

What would be presumptuous would be to do charity the way royals do, i.e., in the form of patronage, showing up to glamourous charity galas as the headliner, etc. ( which, ironically, is exactly why she has been rumored to be preparing to do starting the fall). I see absolutely no issue with her doing some hand-on charity work.

When I said that doing charity work would be presumptuous I did mean in the form of patronages etc in the way that royals do it not in the form that ordinary people do it - although it would be difficult for her to go to say a Red Cross Op Shop and help out voluntarily as the paps would be all over her there but she would be able to do stuff privately.

Sorry I wasn't clear with my wording but I also assumed that people would realise that I meant public support of charities rather than doing what private citizens can and do do.
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  #379  
Old 07-25-2010, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Amelia View Post
Just out of curiosity when you say evidence what are you looking for exactly? The owner of Jigsaw gave an interview a while ago where she talked about Kate working there. Would that do you? It is probably somewhere in the many, many threads about her and William. Other than that unless she invites a member of the British press to follow her for a day I don't think you will ever know how much she does or doesn't work during the day.

I couldn't agree more. There is no evidence that she hasn't worked hard for her family either and I believe that until there is proof positive that she hasn' been working for them then she has to get the benefit of the doubt. Her family have been saying that she works for them and I see no reason not to believe them.
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  #380  
Old 07-25-2010, 08:23 PM
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Just my two cents here...

I think the question of whether Kate will be more popular than Diana is a bit silly. For one thing, if one looks at YouTube, they would see a whole bunch of videos opposing her for every little reason. Already, Kate has many people against her. Diana was popular from day one.

Second, most royal commentators will tell you that Diana was a phenomenon. Seemingly everyone believed in her wedding being a fairytale. But these days, people are more cynical. If and when Kate marries William, there will be a lot of people grumbling about whether the marriage would last and if they really love each other.

Also, if Kate is to be more popular than Diana, she would be massively popular already - and she's not.

Diana is irreplacable, that is well-known. Kate hasn't and probably won't, have the same effect on the UK as Diana did in terms of how it saw itself. Another thing to keep in mind is back in 1981, Brits respected the monarchy more than they do today.
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