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  #1001  
Old 06-25-2011, 07:35 AM
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Of course I know the difference, it just seems pretentious and unnecessary for Mr Middleton to buy himself a coat of arms, especially as his daughter would be given one of her own on her marriage to the heir to the heir.
He did this, it is said, to give his son and other daughter a coat of arms, which was obviously important to him, and could be bought.
I see it as a first step to the ascension of the Middletons towards nobility, a sign of what is to come. If this isn't social climbing at its absolute apex then what is?

I guess the same could be said for Christopher Rhys Jones who also purchased a coat of arms before his daughter married a member of the BRF. At that time, upon her marriage Sophie would have access to Edward...so I guess it wasn't necessary for her as well?
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  #1002  
Old 06-25-2011, 09:02 AM
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I guess the same could be said for Christopher Rhys Jones who also purchased a coat of arms before his daughter married a member of the BRF. At that time, upon her marriage Sophie would have access to Edward...so I guess it wasn't necessary for her as well?
I didn't know that. But the Rhys Jones family have not been like the Middleton family who seem to revel in the reflected glory of their illustrious daughter. I did see that when the marriage to Sophie was about to take place some genealogist found she was of remote royal descent and then the same was done for Kate. I have no idea if Sophie has siblings but would they have the coat of arms as Kate's do because of the purchase?
There is so much dust thrown in our eyes when it comes to people mixing with and marrying into royal families it is hard to know what is true and what isn't. Mr Middleton has been and airline pilot then a luggage controller and from what I have seen written the last is the correct job description. Pilot has a better ring to it.
Whatever happens she is making a very attractive wife to the heir to the heir, she gave out medals so her royal "work" has already begun so no one can call her lazy again. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ole-royal.html
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  #1003  
Old 06-25-2011, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by expat View Post
Of course I know the difference, it just seems pretentious and unnecessary for Mr Middleton to buy himself a coat of arms, especially as his daughter would be given one of her own on her marriage to the heir to the heir.
He did this, it is said, to give his son and other daughter a coat of arms, which was obviously important to him, and could be bought.
I see it as a first step to the ascension of the Middletons towards nobility, a sign of what is to come. If this isn't social climbing at its absolute apex then what is?
I got the impression that his acquiring a coat of arms was the usual thing to do, because consorts always get a coat of arms that is half their husband's and half their father's:

Royal coat of arms of the United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  #1004  
Old 06-25-2011, 09:27 AM
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Sophie, does have a brother...David who also has use of the coats of arms. Frankly, I don't think anyone cared much about the Rhys Jones because they were (and I don't mean to be rude) are not that exciting. The parents were elderly, and the brother and sister in law wouldn't stand out in a crowd. There isn't wrong with that, but frankly the British tabloid press wants youth, glitz and excitement, you weren't going to get that with Sophie's family.

Correction, Sophie's coat was redesgined as it was not recognized. You can check it out here BBC News | UK | Sophie's new coat . And yes, her brother, her father, and her uncle can use the coat of arms.

Its amazing that some people are mocked because they did nothing to earn their wealth and/or social positions due to an accident of birth and than others are also looked down because they have the nerve to move beyond their social positions based on their birth because of great ideas and/or hard work.

For the record, I don't believe the Middleton's are reveling in their new status. You barely see Michael or James, and even if you did...so what? And its the press that are changing Michael's previous positions around...I haven't heard him speak of it because really it doesnt matter what he did...he wasn't on the dole and frankly, that's all that should mattered. Are they supposed to be holed up in their place of business and/or home 24/7 like criminals? Are they not allowed to go out and about with their daily lives? Is it there fault, that the press thinks there is a story and feels the need to take pictures all the time?

Carole Middleton has been out but again, she can't be social? Pippa has always been out and frankly if I was in her position (and had her money) I would be shopping a lot as well. Is she shopping on the tax payer dime? Do we know what she does 24/7? And frankly, I would rather Pippa smile at the press (and be accused of loving the limelight) than scowl at the press (and be accused of being fake, seeking and changing her mind about the press, and any other thing she could be accused of because she is not happy with the attention).

They can't win.
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  #1005  
Old 06-25-2011, 09:44 AM
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That is true but I was thinking more of Carole in the third carriage at Ascot in the royal procession and I can't imagine the Rhys -Jones family like this, but as you say Carole is an attractive woman and obviously has learned the royal wave and was enjoying herself, as of course anyone would in the same position. Pippa the sister is called Her Royal Hotness and has a grin like Cheshire cat in every photo op, but then that is understandable too. Perhaps one day I will warm to this family even James , but not the scrubbed and well turned out Uncle Gary, that I think would be out of the question.
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  #1006  
Old 06-25-2011, 09:48 AM
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Sophie's family coat of arms is very nice and they have a motto I see, dating back hundreds of years. The Middleton design is very pretty. At the time it was said that there was no need for this to be bought as the Queen would be awarding Kate with one to use but that Mr Middleton wanted his son and other daughter to have the use of it so paid for it to be designed.
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  #1007  
Old 06-25-2011, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by expat View Post
Sophie's family coat of arms is very nice and they have a motto I see, dating back hundreds of years. The Middleton design is very pretty. At the time it was said that there was no need for this to be bought as the Queen would be awarding Kate with one to use but that Mr Middleton wanted his son and other daughter to have the use of it so paid for it to be designed.
To my knowledge the Queen would not be granting Kate a coat of arms but rather Kate would have access to some form of William's Coat of Arms. As did Sophie, Camilla, Sarah, Diana, the late Alice and Marina, etc. all of their coats of arms were merged with their husbands. The only difference is that these women's families already had a coat of arms. I believe Kate did need a coat of arms as William's signify his royal birth and positions.

And actually, Sophie's father, Christopher Rhys Jones has rode in an Ascot carriage for several years now. And Carole has ridden because she is a member of a horse syndicate (who were some of the other people in teh carriage and this is an established practice). I don't believe Christopher Rhy Jones is a part of a syndicate so his presence was because of his daughters position.
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  #1008  
Old 06-25-2011, 11:37 AM
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Does Carol ride, or does she own a horse? Isn't Kate allergic? Now I have used my brain cells a bit, of course a syndicate means she owns part of a horse or horses.
At the time of the coat of arms. Sarah chose a busy bee and there is no doubt about her family being of noble origin.

I found this: Royal Wedding: Kate Middleton gets a coat of arms that can be use for the family business too | Mail Online

If Christopher did ride in a carriage I don't think I would recognize him, the family is very discreet and except for the wedding group I don't think I have ever seen his photo.
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  #1009  
Old 06-25-2011, 11:53 AM
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Your last statement actually proves my earlier point: Christopher Rhys Jones, whom might be a very nice man (I don't know so I can't speak from personal experience) would not stand out in a crowd. He is an elderly man that the British press pretty much doesn't focus on. He lived/lives a pretty average life and didn't move beyond his station. His story while normal and comforting is boring. No disrespect to him but that doesn't sell. The Middleton's with their youth, flash, and rise from somewhat humble beginnings do.

I am not sure when they became a member of a horsing syndicating but the fact is they are and as such even if their daughter wasn't married into the BRF they would have the right to ride in the carriages. The only difference is that people wouldn't care who they are. Its a double edged sword.

Mr. Rhys Jones has in fact, ridden in the Ascot carriages SEVERAL timesfor the past couple of years as a guest of the Queen. I believe he was there a day or so before Carole Middleton.
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  #1010  
Old 06-25-2011, 12:06 PM
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Well it is good news in the article for people with aspirations, anyone can buy a coat of arms, all you need is the money and not that much either.
I wonder if Mr Middleton will use it? There are many people who have the right to a crest and even titles who don't use them, I once asked about this and I was told that the old nobility from many hundreds of years ago don't feel the need for this ostentation, of course in the case of Kate she needs one because of her position as wife of the heir to the heir.
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  #1011  
Old 06-25-2011, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by expat View Post
I once asked about this and I was told that the old nobility from many hundreds of years ago don't feel the need for this ostentation, of course in the case of Kate she needs one because of her position as wife of the heir to the heir.
Ostentation? I think a coat of arms is a wonderful thing to have, and I don't think there is anything shameful about acquiring one for yourself instead of inheriting it.
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  #1012  
Old 06-25-2011, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by expat View Post
That is true but I was thinking more of Carole in the third carriage at Ascot in the royal procession and I can't imagine the Rhys -Jones family like this, but as you say Carole is an attractive woman and obviously has learned the royal wave and was enjoying herself, as of course anyone would in the same position. Pippa the sister is called Her Royal Hotness and has a grin like Cheshire cat in every photo op, but then that is understandable too. Perhaps one day I will warm to this family even James , but not the scrubbed and well turned out Uncle Gary, that I think would be out of the question.
Wait a sec.
I believe the Rhys-Jones family has been at Ascot in the carriages as well!
Also, keep in mind William has made it CRYSTAL clear he wants the Middleton family to be included as much as possible in family events etc.
This is known and has been discussed in the press.
The Spencer's were pretty much sidelined when Diana married Charles.
And as we all know they are one of the Great Whig families of GB.
Also, all of this talk about the coat of arms...
I think it's fine for Kate's father to buy his coat of arms,
I don't see a problem. Kate will be the Queen on England some day.
It is perfectly right that her family should have their own coat of arms. IMHO.
I'm very proud of my family coat of arms, which you can see next to my name above.!
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  #1013  
Old 06-25-2011, 04:15 PM
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The last family that I believe was sidelined was the Phillips family as the Fergusons and the Spencers were part of the scene so to speak.

I think William is keen to keep the Middleton's in the loop as in the past for special occasions/holidays it was automatically assumed that the inlaws (Mark, Sarah, Diana, Sophie, etc.) would be spending the holidays with the Windsors. In that instance, that certainly appeared to be the case but you never know what they did when they left the cameras.

I think the BRF made more of an effort with Sophie's family (as evidenced by Mr. Rhys Jones coming to Ascot, etc.) The Spencers were not sidelined during the Charles/Diana marriage. Since they are/were part of the British aristocracy they could have, if they wanted been a part of social scene. Considering that Sarah lived in the country, Charles was in South Africa and Jane was married to Robert Fellowes, you did see them out and about.
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  #1014  
Old 06-25-2011, 04:54 PM
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A coat of arms is a very nice thing to have and it is to be proud of, but I can't help but think an inherited one is worth 100 times more than one that was bought as a kind of vanity.
It is reminiscent of those "buy a title" advertisements one sees quite often.
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  #1015  
Old 06-25-2011, 05:11 PM
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I am sure of the families in the past, whose arms are quite old, at one time had to buy them (or did something like supply troops for a battle for a monarch to receive a title) or received them because they were born on the wrong side of the blanket (and they were given a new title).

So isn't it quite the same thing?
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  #1016  
Old 06-25-2011, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by expat View Post
A coat of arms is a very nice thing to have and it is to be proud of, but I can't help but think an inherited one is worth 100 times more than one that was bought as a kind of vanity.
It is reminiscent of those "buy a title" advertisements one sees quite often.
Well as the saying goes "you gotta start somewhere" . Let's face it, even some of the most illustrious people/aristocracy started out as bastards.
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  #1017  
Old 06-25-2011, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
The last family that I believe was sidelined was the Phillips family as the Fergusons and the Spencers were part of the scene so to speak.

I think William is keen to keep the Middleton's in the loop as in the past for special occasions/holidays it was automatically assumed that the inlaws (Mark, Sarah, Diana, Sophie, etc.) would be spending the holidays with the Windsors. In that instance, that certainly appeared to be the case but you never know what they did when they left the cameras.

I think the BRF made more of an effort with Sophie's family (as evidenced by Mr. Rhys Jones coming to Ascot, etc.) The Spencers were not sidelined during the Charles/Diana marriage. Since they are/were part of the British aristocracy they could have, if they wanted been a part of social scene. Considering that Sarah lived in the country, Charles was in South Africa and Jane was married to Robert Fellowes, you did see them out and about.
This is all true.
I thought I read an article, around the time of the wedding, that said William wanted to include the Middletons because his mother's family was excluded.
It was probably from the Daily Mail, which always has half truths and recycled gossip!
As far as the Spencers, It is true Sarah and Jane were in the picture, but I thought that Earl Spencer was kinda shut out because of the controversial Raine. I could be wrong.
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  #1018  
Old 06-25-2011, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by expat View Post
the Middleton family who seem to revel in the reflected glory of their illustrious daughter.
That is not my perception of Catherine's family
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  #1019  
Old 06-25-2011, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by figtreecrossing

That is not my perception of Catherine's family

I also feel HRH the Duchess of Cambridge's family are not reveling in
any kind of glory. I live in the US, and except for Pippa and HRH, basically, I hardly run across anything about their parents, brother, or any other family member.
I do realize Mrs.Carole Middleton is very excited about her daughter's new role in life. Any children that are a result of HRH and HRH, will be just as much a grandchild for the Middleton's as well as for HRH the Prince of Wales.
Happiness is most definitely a good thing. How did you expect the Middleton's to react? Should they be sad instead?
HRH's family is obviously very happy for and proud of Kate - as they should be.
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  #1020  
Old 06-26-2011, 01:24 AM
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Originally Posted by expat View Post
A coat of arms is a very nice thing to have and it is to be proud of, but I can't help but think an inherited one is worth 100 times more than one that was bought as a kind of vanity.
It is reminiscent of those "buy a title" advertisements one sees quite often.
But why? How can acquiring something for yourself as opposed to inheriting it be shameful?
Besides, if James has children, they will inherit this coat of arms. For them it will be an inherited one. Every tradition has to start somewhere!

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Well as the saying goes "you gotta start somewhere" . Let's face it, even some of the most illustrious people/aristocracy started out as bastards.
Exactly!
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