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  #401  
Old 02-18-2013, 09:05 AM
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The Royal Family name of Windsor was confirmed by The Queen after her accession in 1952. However, in 1960, The Queen and The Duke of Edinburgh decided that they would like their own direct descendants to be distinguished from the rest of the Royal Family (without changing the name of the Royal House), as Windsor is the surname used by all the male and unmarried female descendants of George V.

It was therefore declared in the Privy Council that The Queen's descendants, other than those with the style of Royal Highness and the title of Prince/Princess, or female descendants who marry, would carry the name of Mountbatten-Windsor.

The effect of the declaration was that all The Queen's children, on occasions when they needed a surname, would have the surname Mountbatten-Windsor.
To me, their premise and conclusion don't match. William is a Royal Highness and a Prince, which means that his surname should be Windsor. And yet they state that when a surname is needed, they should use Mountbatten-Windsor.

Either way, thank you for posting the link. I assume those in charge of the official website know better than anyone else, even if their explanation is illogical.
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  #402  
Old 02-18-2013, 09:27 AM
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I just call them The Cambridge's. Like The York's, Wessex's, Kent's and Gloucester's.
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  #403  
Old 02-18-2013, 09:28 AM
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It seems simple to me:
Windsor is the surname used by all the male and unmarried female descendants of George V - The Gloucesters and The Kents.
The Queen's descendants or female descendants who unmarry, would carry the name of Mountbatten-Windsor - The Weleses (The Cambridges), The Yorks, The Wessexes.
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  #404  
Old 02-18-2013, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Spheno View Post
It seems simple to me:
Windsor is the surname used by all the male and unmarried female descendants of George V - The Gloucesters and The Kents.
The Queen's descendants or female descendants who unmarry, would carry the name of Mountbatten-Windsor - The Weleses (The Cambridges), The Yorks, The Wessexes.
That's the conclusion. But then they give the following premise: It was therefore declared in the Privy Council that The Queen's descendants, other than those with the style of Royal Highness and the title of Prince/Princess, or female descendants who marry, would carry the name of Mountbatten-Windsor.

I accept Mountbatten-Windsor will be the surname of Harry's children and all other descendants of the Queen and Prince Philip who are not Royal Highnesses and Princes/Princesses of the United Kingdom. I can even accept that Lady Louise and Viscount Severn are Mountbatten-Windsor. But I do not understand how Mountbatten-Windsor can be the surname of the Wales and the York families, or Prince William's (future) children - all of whom are/will be Royal Highnesses and Princes/Princesses of the United Kingdom.
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  #405  
Old 02-18-2013, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
But I do not understand how Mountbatten-Windsor can be the surname of the Wales and the York families, or Prince William's (future) children - all of whom are/will be Royal Highnesses and Princes/Princesses of the United Kingdom.
They don't have surname.
If they need surname:
The effect of the declaration was that all The Queen's children, on occasions when they needed a surname, would have the surname Mountbatten-Windsor.

The Queen and her children are NOT the male descendants of George V.
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  #406  
Old 02-18-2013, 09:50 AM
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They do have a surname - Windsor or Mountbatten Windsor. Not to have a need for surname and not actually having one are two different things.
Quote from the same link you posted:
Quote:
Before 1917, members of the British Royal Family had no surname, but only the name of the house or dynasty to which they belonged. ...
In 1917, there was a radical change, when George V specifically adopted Windsor, not only as the name of the 'House' or dynasty, but also as the surname of his family.
I know Anne and Charles have used Mountbatten-Windsor in their private lives (for instance, I believe Charles used that surname in the Navy and Anne - upon getting married). But again, I don't see how it can be the official surname of those royals who carry the style of Royal Highness and title of Princes/Princesses.
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  #407  
Old 02-18-2013, 11:44 AM
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Just an odd question on this point. When William and Kate filed suit in France, didn't it state William Mountbatten-Windsor and Catherine Middleton (females use their maiden names)? I remember there being a discussion on this then.
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  #408  
Old 02-18-2013, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Just an odd question on this point. When William and Kate filed suit in France, didn't it state William Mountbatten-Windsor and Catherine Middleton (females use their maiden names)? I remember there being a discussion on this then.
Indeed it did. Full names as well.
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  #409  
Old 02-21-2013, 07:17 AM
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Richard Palmer‏@RoyalReporter
We were originally told to expect an announcement on William's future in January but I believe it's now likely to be in March
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  #410  
Old 02-21-2013, 08:23 AM
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Richard Palmer‏@RoyalReporter
We were originally told to expect an announcement on William's future in January but I believe it's now likely to be in March
Do we need a poll to establish if we think he will stay on in the armed forces for another stint?
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  #411  
Old 02-21-2013, 08:44 AM
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Since everyone in the BRF needs a passport (except for HM), they would have to use a surname. I believe Anne used M-W on both her marriage certificates as a tribute to her father. The Queen may have even "decreed" that the family surname, when needed, was to be Mountbatten-Windsor...seems I read this somewhere. Make no mistake, Philip has always been head of the family, not HM.
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  #412  
Old 02-21-2013, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post

They do have a surname - Windsor or Mountbatten Windsor. Not to have a need for surname and not actually having one are two different things.
Quote from the same link you posted: I know Anne and Charles have used Mountbatten-Windsor in their private lives (for instance, I believe Charles used that surname in the Navy and Anne - upon getting married). But again, I don't see how it can be the official surname of those royals who carry the style of Royal Highness and title of Princes/Princesses.
Artemisia: This being true, do you (or anyone) know why William and Harry are known by the surname WALES in military service? That has always confused me.
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  #413  
Old 02-21-2013, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by AdmirerUS View Post
Artemisia: This being true, do you (or anyone) know why William and Harry are known by the surname WALES in military service? That has always confused me.
Probably as he is HRH Prince William of Wales.
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  #414  
Old 02-21-2013, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KittyAtlanta View Post
Since everyone in the BRF needs a passport (except for HM), they would have to use a surname. I believe Anne used M-W on both her marriage certificates as a tribute to her father. The Queen may have even "decreed" that the family surname, when needed, was to be Mountbatten-Windsor...seems I read this somewhere. Make no mistake, Philip has always been head of the family, not HM.
They have their titles in passports.
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  #415  
Old 02-21-2013, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by AdmirerUS View Post
Artemisia: This being true, do you (or anyone) know why William and Harry are known by the surname WALES in military service? That has always confused me.
Before William was created the Duke of Cambridge, he had no peerage title and it is customary for children of Royal Dukes to be known by the name of their father's Dukedom ("name + of + Dukedom", like Beatrice of York). Because of that, and because "Wales" is rather more inconspicuous than "Windsor", William and Harry chose it as their surname for their Army careers.

Harry still remains "of Wales" but William, a Peer in his own right, is now "of Cambridge".
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  #416  
Old 02-21-2013, 10:16 AM
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They have their titles in passports.
Indeed they do.
Here is a copy of Prince Charles's passport which lists his titles and styles (not all of them, of course; the passport would run out of pages).
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  #417  
Old 02-21-2013, 10:55 AM
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On Charles and Camilla's wedding certificate, Charles's 'name and surname' is recorded as 'His Royal Highness Prince Charles Philip Arthur George THE PRINCE OF WALES'.

Camilla's is 'Camilla Rosemary PARKER BOWLES'.

The registrar has used capitals and underlined what is considered to be their surnames, in Charles's case it's 'The Prince of Wales' and in Camilla's it's 'Parker Bowles'. So, Charles is not using Winsdor, Mountbatton-Windsor or simply Wales. He's essentially using his title as his surname. I would think his current passport (the one in Artemisia's link is quite old as UK passports have been a maroon colour for many years now to, unfortunately, comply with EU rules) would be the same.

Personally, I think the royals just choose whatever name they fancy when one is needed.
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  #418  
Old 02-21-2013, 11:27 AM
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Yeah, William is no longer Prince William of Wales but HRH The Duke of Cambridge.
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  #419  
Old 02-21-2013, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
That's the conclusion. But then they give the following premise: It was therefore declared in the Privy Council that The Queen's descendants, other than those with the style of Royal Highness and the title of Prince/Princess, or female descendants who marry, would carry the name of Mountbatten-Windsor.

I accept Mountbatten-Windsor will be the surname of Harry's children and all other descendants of the Queen and Prince Philip who are not Royal Highnesses and Princes/Princesses of the United Kingdom. I can even accept that Lady Louise and Viscount Severn are Mountbatten-Windsor. But I do not understand how Mountbatten-Windsor can be the surname of the Wales and the York families, or Prince William's (future) children - all of whom are/will be Royal Highnesses and Princes/Princesses of the United Kingdom.
To me it's quite simple ... the last name Mountbatten is inherited from the paternal side of the family ... that's Prince Phillip's last name ... in many countries, where a child is born and the parents have separate last names (in this case Queen Elizabeth's is Windsor and Prince Phillip's is Mountbatten) the child / children (and other such descendants) can legally use one or the other or both (hyphenated).
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  #420  
Old 02-21-2013, 06:08 PM
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The reason why the Mountbatten-Windsor surname is said to belong to those who are of male line descent but do not use (or have) an HRH is because people with the HRH do not use (or need) a surname in regular practice. Where you or I would use a surname, people with HRHs instead use a title. For legal matters The Prince of Wales' surname is The Prince of Wales. His full name is Charles Philip Arthur George - no surname - not Charles Philip Arthur George Mountbatten-Windsor (or Windsor, for that matter).

When members of the Royal Family who have an HRH need to use a surname they can do so in one of three ways:
1. They use their title, either in completion or partiality. Charles' passport lists his surname as The Prince of Wales, while when they were at school and while in the armed forces both William and Harry have used Wales. This can also be seen with Edward, who was styled as Edward Wessex in his production company following his marriage.
2. They use the surname Windsor. Edward in particular has done this; he was styled as Edward Windsor in his production company prior to his marriage, and his daughter is Lady Louise Windsor.
3. They can use Mountbatten-Windsor, as is done with all non-HRH male-line members of the family. At this point there are, officially, no such people who are Mountbatten-Windsors - Edward's children are both HRHs, they just don't use it. Right now, the future children of Edward's son will be styled as such and, depending on when he has children (and if HM is still alive then), Harry's future children will also be styled as such.

Most HRHs have made use of Mountbatten-Windsor at some point in time or another, at times when they needed a surname and chose not to use their titles, but it is not a part of their legal name. Nor, for that matter, is Windsor, which in all technicality at this point is the House name but not the surname. In terms of surnames, the Windsors are the male-line descendants of George V (i.e. HM's cousins), while the Mountbatten-Windsors are the male-line descendants of Elizabeth II.
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