Prince William Created Duke of Cambridge: April 29, 2011

[Galois]

A short lived hereditary title

One other thought. I know two of Queen Victoria's grandsons were granted dukedoms in the same situation as Prince William (as the eldest living son of the Prince of Wales as an adult) but it is still rather interesting. Here is a title granted presumably with the usual stipulation that it would pass to the male heirs of the body, but it is highly unlikely that it would ever pass to another person. For either the Duke would ascend the throne, such as the Duke of York, King George V, and the title would merge with the crown. Or else the duke would die before ascending the throne, in which case if he had no legitimate sons the title would become extinct as was the case with the Duke of Clarence and Avondale.

It is possible that the Duke could have a legitimate son, and then die before inheriting the throne. The title would still be fairly short lived, for once the Queen and the Prince of Wales both die whoever holds the ducal title would become King and the title would merge with the crown (unless it was already extinct). This is a title for which it is almost impossible for it to survive for several generations. I say almost, because there is one theoretical possibility for how the title could survive. Suppose the Duke suddenly decided to become Catholic and have his children raised as such. That would remove his line from succession to the throne, but there is no reason he couldn't keep his current titles which could then be passed down for generations. I emphasize that this is purely theoretical, there is no way I could see a direct heir to the throne doing that.

 

[ladongas]

Smart Move

While the article is interesting, I wouldn't read too much into it. The Royal Family will clearly refer to them as the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge. The statement that Prince William "had let it be known" that he would prefer for his wife to become "Princess Catherine" was news reported months ago. The Queen could certainly understand these feelings. I don't doubt she had wanted her husband to be known as Prince Phillip before her ascension, but she had to wait. Nonetheless she decided that Prince William must wait as well. That being said, there is an acknowledgement from the royal family that the public will call her what it chooses, and they're not going to constantly correct people. That is all I understand from the Prince of Wale's communications secretary.

You are right, of course. It is very smart for the Palace to insist on protocol, but to acknowledge the power of the Prince William and Princess Catherine "brand".

However, do you think that the general public and the press will spontaneously begin to refer to Princess Camilla, Princess Sophie, and Princess Marie Christine?

 

[Galois]

However, do you think that the general public and the press will spontaneously begin to refer to Princess Camilla, Princess Sophie, and Princess Marie Christine?

I get the wink, but I do think there is an understandable difference. The Countess of Wessex and Princess Michael of Kent will almost assuredly never become queen. The Duchess of Cornwall almost assuredly will become queen but the public doesn't like to think about that. Currently the idea seems to be at the point she is queen is when she'll finally be called Princess. The Duchess of Cambridge, however, will most likely become queen and the public is excited about that. So in their mind, she is a princess.

 

[Susanna Wynne]

Well, since Paddy approves, I'm going to call her Princess Catherine, and I suspect William will, and the press, and her charities, etc., etc. And when the Queen has gone to her eternal reward someday (many years, I hope) in the future, we will most likely be able to call Catherine "The Princess of Wales."

 

[Sister Morphine]

I get the wink, but I do think there is an understandable difference. The Countess of Wessex and Princess Michael of Kent will almost assuredly never become queen. The Duchess of Cornwall almost assuredly will become queen but the public doesn't like to think about that. Currently the idea seems to be at the point she is queen is when she'll finally be called Princess. The Duchess of Cambridge, however, will most likely become queen and the public is excited about that. So in their mind, she is a princess.

She already is a princess, people seem to be forgetting that. She is HRH Princess William, Duchess of Cambridge, Countess of Strathearn, Lady Carrickfergus. She married a prince, thus she is a princess. Just like her husband's aunt and his step-mother.

 

[Skippy]

She already is a princess, people seem to be forgetting that. She is HRH Princess William, Duchess of Cambridge, Countess of Strathearn, Lady Carrickfergus. She married a prince, thus she is a princess. Just like her husband's aunt and his step-mother.

I think for some people it is confusing that she officially is Princess William but not Princess Catherine .
Some would say, I think, "what is the difference?".

 

[MRSJ]

She already is a princess, people seem to be forgetting that. She is HRH Princess William, Duchess of Cambridge, Countess of Strathearn, Lady Carrickfergus. She married a prince, thus she is a princess. Just like her husband's aunt and his step-mother.

Of course but I think the point is like Diana she will be referred to as Princess Catherine unlike the other women who in press will still be Duchess of Cornwall, Countess of Wessex and Duchess of Kent etc......it's a bit like Diana vs Sarah- no one called Sarah Princess Sarah in the press, even though both of then were Princesses....

 

[Skippy]

Of course but I think the point is like Diana she will be referred to as Princess Catherine unlike the other women who in press will still be Duchess of Cornwall, Countess of Wessex and Duchess of Kent etc......it's a bit like Diana vs Sarah- no one called Sarah Princess Sarah in the press, even though both of then were Princesses....

I think that is because Diana had "Princess" in both her titles - Princess Charles and her official title Princess of Wales. Sarah became Princess Andrew and her official title Duchess of York.

So Catherine is now Princess William and Duchess of Cambridge but may apparently unofficially be called Princess Catherine.

 

[MRSJ]

I think that is because Diana had "Princess" in both her titles - Princess Charles and her official title Princess of Wales. Sarah became Princess Andrew and her official title Duchess of York.

So Catherine is now Princess William and Duchess of Cambridge but may apparently unofficially be called Princess Catherine.

Yes, that does make sense and I guess my point was that she's going to be Princess Catherine unofficially because William official press secretary say so...had nothing been said I think plp would have ended up going with Duchess like Sarah.....but I guess it's ok either way now.

 

[Frideswide]

That article contains a number of errors, so I'm not sure I'd fully trust their quotes and paraphrases. They've tried to get it right, but it's all a bit shaky

Miss Kate Middleton became Her Royal Highness Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge, on her marriage to the second in line to the throne.

It is also suggested the Countess of Wessex would also have been unhappy as she was denied the title "Princess Sophie", when she married Prince Edward in 1999.

Not being a princess and having to curtsy in public to her in-laws may prove to be a small price to pay for a gentle introduction to the royal limelight for the former Kate Middleton.

 

[Iluvbertie]

It is possible that the Duke could have a legitimate son, and then die before inheriting the throne. The title would still be fairly short lived, for once the Queen and the Prince of Wales both die whoever holds the ducal title would become King and the title would merge with the crown (unless it was already extinct). This is a title for which it is almost impossible for it to survive for several generations. I say almost, because there is one theoretical possibility for how the title could survive. Suppose the Duke suddenly decided to become Catholic and have his children raised as such. That would remove his line from succession to the throne, but there is no reason he couldn't keep his current titles which could then be passed down for generations. I emphasize that this is purely theoretical, there is no way I could see a direct heir to the throne doing that.

Of course if the LPs have the usual remainder of 'heirs male' then the following scenario sees the title continue:

Law changes for equal succession.
William and Kate have a daughter and then a son.
William dies before becoming King.
Son becomes Duke of Cambridge but his older sister will eventually become Queen.

 

[Iluvbertie]

This is the same comment that was made in 1981 - they said then that the public could call Diana Princess Diana.

However I will stick with the title that she was given - Duchess of Cambridge.

She is a princess by marriage of course but I prefer to use either the official title or a total nickname - Kate.

 

[Royal_Eagle]

This is the same comment that was made in 1981 - they said then that the public could call Diana Princess Diana.

However I will stick with the title that she was given - Duchess of Cambridge.

She is a princess by marriage of course but I prefer to use either the official title or a total nickname - Kate.

Same here--and out of respect for them and their role, I prefer to call them correctly, which is Duchess of Cambridge, although I might use 'Catherine' too (Kate just seems too informal for me--and I've got a sister with a very similar name and she never liked any shorter nicknames either, so it works for me )

It's all good though. But I don't really cut the newspapers, especially the serious newspapers any slack for getting their titles mixed up or call them inappropriately--they're supposed to report facts and not get facts mixed up, such as titles, etc.

 

[branchg]

The article is full of nonsense. The Queen did not, as many of us predicted, agree to allow Catherine to take the style of "Princess Catherine" upon marriage. She created William a Duke and his wife takes her title as a Duchess with the rank of HRH as Princess William, the same as the other wives of royal rank in the family.

Regardless of her title, her precedence at court is expected to follow the daughter of The Sovereign, Princess Alexandra, and the two wives of the Sons of The Sovereign. Even if she had the style of a Princess, her precedence would be the same.

And no one curtsies or bows to each other at court, except to The Queen and Prince Philip.

 

[Galois]

Of course if the LPs have the usual remainder of 'heirs male' then the following scenario sees the title continue:

Law changes for equal succession.
William and Kate have a daughter and then a son.
William dies before becoming King.
Son becomes Duke of Cambridge but his older sister will eventually become Queen.

Good point. That's probably actually the most likely scenario in which the title would continue (although still on the improbable side).

 

[MRSJ]

And no one curtsies or bows to each other at court, except to The Queen and Prince Philip.

But they do at other official events, I've seen a video of Anne curtesy to Camilla (at Ascot I believe) so Kate has to know......and someone who knows better then I must confirm but I believe the Queen has said in private precedence the Princesses in their own right outrank the wives so if they made Catherine a princess in her own right she would outrank Camilla (without husbands),right?

 

[wbenson]

I'm not personally totally convinced that Anne was curtseying in that video. It's possible, but I don't think it's 100% certain.

And no one curtsies or bows to each other at court, except to The Queen and Prince Philip.

I'm not sure they even usually do to Prince Philip. At the wedding, Camilla curtsied to the Queen but not to him. (I don't believe William did at RAF Valley last month, either.)

 

[Iluvbertie]

But they do at other official events, I've seen a video of Anne curtesy to Camilla (at Ascot I believe) so Kate has to know......and someone who knows better then I must confirm but I believe the Queen has said in private precedence the Princesses in their own right outrank the wives so if they made Catherine a princess in her own right she would outrank Camilla (without husbands),right?

Which is one very good reason why she didn't make her a princess in her own right - unless she also made Camilla and Sophie ones as well.

 

[Osipi]

I'm not sure they even usually do to Prince Philip. At the wedding, Camilla curtsied to the Queen but not to him. (I don't believe William did at RAF Valley last month, either.)

IIRC when William greeted HM at the RAF base, he kissed her on both cheeks. I would imagine though at a formal state occasion, it might be totally different.

 

[wbenson]

After the kiss he bowed. It's at 0:45 in this video (which unfortunately cuts off right after):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOVBAj8wWm8

 

[Osipi]

After the kiss he bowed. It's at 0:45 in this video (which unfortunately cuts off right after):

YouTube - Queen Visits William 01.04.11

Absolutely right! I must have missed that as it was so quick.

 

[biboquinhas]

Well I think is time to open a new Thread for Duke and Duchess of Cambridge here

 

[Susanna Wynne]

I will be interested in the new list of precedence which will be published soon, probably before the Trooping of the Colour.

Still, it was the Prince of Wales's communications secretary, Paddy Haverson, who was quoted by the Telegraph, a respectable paper, saying that calling her "Princess Catherine" was acceptable. They get that keeping the world from calling her "Princess Catherine" would be like holding back the waves of the ocean; but the Queen also had to 'officially' think of her daughter and the Duchess of Cornwall and the other blood princesses when creating her title and precedence. So, she has tried to please both Prince William and the rest of the family. No one should think that Paddy would have made such a statement if it wasn't sanctioned by the Prince of Wales and the Queen.

And it will be interesting how they are introduced at future public appearances if the Prince/Duke really wants to continue to be known as 'Prince William.' We shall soon see.

 

[Lumutqueen]

I will be interested in the new list of precedence which will be published soon, probably before the Trooping of the Colour.

Still, it was the Prince of Wales's communications secretary, Paddy Haverson, who was quoted by the Telegraph, a respectable paper, saying that calling her "Princess Catherine" was acceptable. They get that keeping the world from calling her "Princess Catherine" would be like holding back the waves of the ocean; but the Queen also had to 'officially' think of her daughter and the Duchess of Cornwall and the other blood princesses when creating her title and precedence. So, she has tried to please both Prince William and the rest of the family. No one should think that Paddy would have made such a statement if it wasn't sanctioned by the Prince of Wales and the Queen.

And it will be interesting how they are introduced at future public appearances if the Prince/Duke really wants to continue to be known as 'Prince William.' We shall soon see.

Paddy said that on the day of the wedding itself and I found it shocking. I think William will be introduce as either HRH The Duke of Cambridge or Prince William, The Duke of Cambridge.

 

[Kataryn]

I once read an article in a scientific publication for historians about the title of "Prince of Scotland". Most people don't know that the title of "The Prince and Great Steward of Scotland" is a title for the heir apparent which still includes certain rights within the Scottish law of today. Its very similar to the title "The Prince of Wales" and is the historical equivalent - the English had "Prince of Wales" for the heir, the Scottish had "Prince and Great Steward of Scotland".

But after 1603 the title ceased to be used in that very official form, it is now one of the titles of the heir apparent who, like the other heirs after 1603, prefers the title Duke of Rothesay when in Scotland. None the less, Charles is "The Prince of Scotland".

What was not longer used but still exists today according to the law that governed the creation of the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland" in 1701 is the title of Prince and Princess of Scotland for all male-line descendants of kings of the UK. That said, it means that Lord Frederick Windsor is in fact Lord Frederick Windsor, Prince of Scotland and his wife Sophie is not only Lady Frederick, but could call herself lawfully "Princess Sophie of Scotland" as the wife of a prince of Scotland - Scottish rules are different from that of the Uk, in Scotland the wife of a prince used her own name and that was not changed when Scotland became part of the Uk.

In 1917 the historian wrote, it was thought about reviving the Scottish prince/ss tiltles in order to reduce the Germanicness of the RF. The king chose the Windsor-name for the Royal House instead and created his relatives peers in the UK peerage.

It was discussed as well in the abdication crisis when the new king George VI. and Queen Elizabeth were afraid that the former king would claim the title and thus enable his wife Wallis to be HRH Princess Wallis of Scotland.

It was again discussed when Scotland got more independence with the Uk but the queen for whatever reasons does not like the idea. Maybe due to the abdication crisis.

Point is: on marrying William Catherine became by law HRH Princess Catherine of Scotland", even though the RF prefers to ignore these titles.
Maybe thats the reason why the Palace "accepts" that Catherine might be called "Princess Catherine" because lawfully she is that and not because she is a princess in her own right, but because she is married to a Prince of Scotland. One who will one day be "The Prince and Great Steward of Scotland".

 

[PrincePatrick]

Very interesting Kataryn! I'd never heard about the Prince of Scotland. It is strange indeed that the BRF would ignore these titles...

 

[cdngirl]

I actully like the Duchess of Cambridge better that Princess Catherine, simply because it rolls of the tongue better.

 

[MRSJ]

I will be interested in the new list of precedence which will be published soon, probably before the Trooping of the Colour.

Myself as well...for some reason I find the precedence fascinating and am slighty obssesed with making sure I understand it

 

[Tiggersk8]

I once read an article in a scientific publication for historians about the title of "Prince of Scotland". Most people don't know that the title of "The Prince and Great Steward of Scotland" is a title for the heir apparent which still includes certain rights within the Scottish law of today. Its very similar to the title "The Prince of Wales" and is the historical equivalent - the English had "Prince of Wales" for the heir, the Scottish had "Prince and Great Steward of Scotland".

But after 1603 the title ceased to be used in that very official form, it is now one of the titles of the heir apparent who, like the other heirs after 1603, prefers the title Duke of Rothesay when in Scotland. None the less, Charles is "The Prince of Scotland".

What was not longer used but still exists today according to the law that governed the creation of the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland" in 1701 is the title of Prince and Princess of Scotland for all male-line descendants of kings of the UK. That said, it means that Lord Frederick Windsor is in fact Lord Frederick Windsor, Prince of Scotland and his wife Sophie is not only Lady Frederick, but could call herself lawfully "Princess Sophie of Scotland" as the wife of a prince of Scotland - Scottish rules are different from that of the Uk, in Scotland the wife of a prince used her own name and that was not changed when Scotland became part of the Uk.

In 1917 the historian wrote, it was thought about reviving the Scottish prince/ss tiltles in order to reduce the Germanicness of the RF. The king chose the Windsor-name for the Royal House instead and created his relatives peers in the UK peerage.

It was discussed as well in the abdication crisis when the new king George VI. and Queen Elizabeth were afraid that the former king would claim the title and thus enable his wife Wallis to be HRH Princess Wallis of Scotland.

It was again discussed when Scotland got more independence with the Uk but the queen for whatever reasons does not like the idea. Maybe due to the abdication crisis.

Point is: on marrying William Catherine became by law HRH Princess Catherine of Scotland", even though the RF prefers to ignore these titles.
Maybe thats the reason why the Palace "accepts" that Catherine might be called "Princess Catherine" because lawfully she is that and not because she is a princess in her own right, but because she is married to a Prince of Scotland. One who will one day be "The Prince and Great Steward of Scotland".

Wow!! I never knew that before either. That's really interesting and nice to know that she really is Princess Catherine. Now I won't have to grind my teeth as much when I hear her called that now.

BTW, may I have your permission to copy and paste that into a Word Doc for my own Royal Library/Cache of Information? Please and Thank you!?!

 

[Kataryn]

Wow!! I never knew that before either. That's really interesting and nice to know that she really is Princess Catherine. Now I won't have to grind my teeth as much when I hear her called that now.

BTW, may I have your permission to copy and paste that into a Word Doc for my own Royal Library/Cache of Information? Please and Thank you!?!

Sure you can.