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  #181  
Old 05-01-2011, 05:17 PM
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A short lived hereditary title

One other thought. I know two of Queen Victoria's grandsons were granted dukedoms in the same situation as Prince William (as the eldest living son of the Prince of Wales as an adult) but it is still rather interesting. Here is a title granted presumably with the usual stipulation that it would pass to the male heirs of the body, but it is highly unlikely that it would ever pass to another person. For either the Duke would ascend the throne, such as the Duke of York, King George V, and the title would merge with the crown. Or else the duke would die before ascending the throne, in which case if he had no legitimate sons the title would become extinct as was the case with the Duke of Clarence and Avondale.

It is possible that the Duke could have a legitimate son, and then die before inheriting the throne. The title would still be fairly short lived, for once the Queen and the Prince of Wales both die whoever holds the ducal title would become King and the title would merge with the crown (unless it was already extinct). This is a title for which it is almost impossible for it to survive for several generations. I say almost, because there is one theoretical possibility for how the title could survive. Suppose the Duke suddenly decided to become Catholic and have his children raised as such. That would remove his line from succession to the throne, but there is no reason he couldn't keep his current titles which could then be passed down for generations. I emphasize that this is purely theoretical, there is no way I could see a direct heir to the throne doing that.
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  #182  
Old 05-01-2011, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Galois View Post
While the article is interesting, I wouldn't read too much into it. The Royal Family will clearly refer to them as the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge. The statement that Prince William "had let it be known" that he would prefer for his wife to become "Princess Catherine" was news reported months ago. The Queen could certainly understand these feelings. I don't doubt she had wanted her husband to be known as Prince Phillip before her ascension, but she had to wait. Nonetheless she decided that Prince William must wait as well. That being said, there is an acknowledgement from the royal family that the public will call her what it chooses, and they're not going to constantly correct people. That is all I understand from the Prince of Wale's communications secretary.
You are right, of course. It is very smart for the Palace to insist on protocol, but to acknowledge the power of the Prince William and Princess Catherine "brand".

However, do you think that the general public and the press will spontaneously begin to refer to Princess Camilla, Princess Sophie, and Princess Marie Christine?
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  #183  
Old 05-01-2011, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by ladongas View Post

However, do you think that the general public and the press will spontaneously begin to refer to Princess Camilla, Princess Sophie, and Princess Marie Christine?
I get the wink, but I do think there is an understandable difference. The Countess of Wessex and Princess Michael of Kent will almost assuredly never become queen. The Duchess of Cornwall almost assuredly will become queen but the public doesn't like to think about that. Currently the idea seems to be at the point she is queen is when she'll finally be called Princess. The Duchess of Cambridge, however, will most likely become queen and the public is excited about that. So in their mind, she is a princess.
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  #184  
Old 05-01-2011, 06:02 PM
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Well, since Paddy approves, I'm going to call her Princess Catherine, and I suspect William will, and the press, and her charities, etc., etc. And when the Queen has gone to her eternal reward someday (many years, I hope) in the future, we will most likely be able to call Catherine "The Princess of Wales."
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  #185  
Old 05-01-2011, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Galois View Post
I get the wink, but I do think there is an understandable difference. The Countess of Wessex and Princess Michael of Kent will almost assuredly never become queen. The Duchess of Cornwall almost assuredly will become queen but the public doesn't like to think about that. Currently the idea seems to be at the point she is queen is when she'll finally be called Princess. The Duchess of Cambridge, however, will most likely become queen and the public is excited about that. So in their mind, she is a princess.

She already is a princess, people seem to be forgetting that. She is HRH Princess William, Duchess of Cambridge, Countess of Strathearn, Lady Carrickfergus. She married a prince, thus she is a princess. Just like her husband's aunt and his step-mother.
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  #186  
Old 05-01-2011, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post
She already is a princess, people seem to be forgetting that. She is HRH Princess William, Duchess of Cambridge, Countess of Strathearn, Lady Carrickfergus. She married a prince, thus she is a princess. Just like her husband's aunt and his step-mother.
I think for some people it is confusing that she officially is Princess William but not Princess Catherine .
Some would say, I think, "what is the difference?".
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  #187  
Old 05-01-2011, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Morphine

She already is a princess, people seem to be forgetting that. She is HRH Princess William, Duchess of Cambridge, Countess of Strathearn, Lady Carrickfergus. She married a prince, thus she is a princess. Just like her husband's aunt and his step-mother.
Of course but I think the point is like Diana she will be referred to as Princess Catherine unlike the other women who in press will still be Duchess of Cornwall, Countess of Wessex and Duchess of Kent etc......it's a bit like Diana vs Sarah- no one called Sarah Princess Sarah in the press, even though both of then were Princesses....
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  #188  
Old 05-01-2011, 06:35 PM
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Of course but I think the point is like Diana she will be referred to as Princess Catherine unlike the other women who in press will still be Duchess of Cornwall, Countess of Wessex and Duchess of Kent etc......it's a bit like Diana vs Sarah- no one called Sarah Princess Sarah in the press, even though both of then were Princesses....
I think that is because Diana had "Princess" in both her titles - Princess Charles and her official title Princess of Wales. Sarah became Princess Andrew and her official title Duchess of York.

So Catherine is now Princess William and Duchess of Cambridge but may apparently unofficially be called Princess Catherine.
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  #189  
Old 05-01-2011, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Skippy

I think that is because Diana had "Princess" in both her titles - Princess Charles and her official title Princess of Wales. Sarah became Princess Andrew and her official title Duchess of York.

So Catherine is now Princess William and Duchess of Cambridge but may apparently unofficially be called Princess Catherine.
Yes, that does make sense and I guess my point was that she's going to be Princess Catherine unofficially because William official press secretary say so...had nothing been said I think plp would have ended up going with Duchess like Sarah.....but I guess it's ok either way now.
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  #190  
Old 05-01-2011, 08:38 PM
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That article contains a number of errors, so I'm not sure I'd fully trust their quotes and paraphrases. They've tried to get it right, but it's all a bit shaky

Quote:
Miss Kate Middleton became Her Royal Highness Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge, on her marriage to the second in line to the throne.
Quote:
It is also suggested the Countess of Wessex would also have been unhappy as she was denied the title "Princess Sophie", when she married Prince Edward in 1999.
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Not being a princess and having to curtsy in public to her in-laws may prove to be a small price to pay for a gentle introduction to the royal limelight for the former Kate Middleton.
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  #191  
Old 05-01-2011, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Galois View Post
It is possible that the Duke could have a legitimate son, and then die before inheriting the throne. The title would still be fairly short lived, for once the Queen and the Prince of Wales both die whoever holds the ducal title would become King and the title would merge with the crown (unless it was already extinct). This is a title for which it is almost impossible for it to survive for several generations. I say almost, because there is one theoretical possibility for how the title could survive. Suppose the Duke suddenly decided to become Catholic and have his children raised as such. That would remove his line from succession to the throne, but there is no reason he couldn't keep his current titles which could then be passed down for generations. I emphasize that this is purely theoretical, there is no way I could see a direct heir to the throne doing that.
Of course if the LPs have the usual remainder of 'heirs male' then the following scenario sees the title continue:

Law changes for equal succession.
William and Kate have a daughter and then a son.
William dies before becoming King.
Son becomes Duke of Cambridge but his older sister will eventually become Queen.
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  #192  
Old 05-01-2011, 09:08 PM
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This is the same comment that was made in 1981 - they said then that the public could call Diana Princess Diana.

However I will stick with the title that she was given - Duchess of Cambridge.

She is a princess by marriage of course but I prefer to use either the official title or a total nickname - Kate.
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  #193  
Old 05-01-2011, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
This is the same comment that was made in 1981 - they said then that the public could call Diana Princess Diana.

However I will stick with the title that she was given - Duchess of Cambridge.

She is a princess by marriage of course but I prefer to use either the official title or a total nickname - Kate.
Same here--and out of respect for them and their role, I prefer to call them correctly, which is Duchess of Cambridge, although I might use 'Catherine' too (Kate just seems too informal for me--and I've got a sister with a very similar name and she never liked any shorter nicknames either, so it works for me :) )

It's all good though. But I don't really cut the newspapers, especially the serious newspapers any slack for getting their titles mixed up or call them inappropriately--they're supposed to report facts and not get facts mixed up, such as titles, etc.
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  #194  
Old 05-01-2011, 10:24 PM
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The article is full of nonsense. The Queen did not, as many of us predicted, agree to allow Catherine to take the style of "Princess Catherine" upon marriage. She created William a Duke and his wife takes her title as a Duchess with the rank of HRH as Princess William, the same as the other wives of royal rank in the family.

Regardless of her title, her precedence at court is expected to follow the daughter of The Sovereign, Princess Alexandra, and the two wives of the Sons of The Sovereign. Even if she had the style of a Princess, her precedence would be the same.

And no one curtsies or bows to each other at court, except to The Queen and Prince Philip.
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  #195  
Old 05-01-2011, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Of course if the LPs have the usual remainder of 'heirs male' then the following scenario sees the title continue:

Law changes for equal succession.
William and Kate have a daughter and then a son.
William dies before becoming King.
Son becomes Duke of Cambridge but his older sister will eventually become Queen.
Good point. That's probably actually the most likely scenario in which the title would continue (although still on the improbable side).
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  #196  
Old 05-01-2011, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg

And no one curtsies or bows to each other at court, except to The Queen and Prince Philip.
But they do at other official events, I've seen a video of Anne curtesy to Camilla (at Ascot I believe) so Kate has to know......and someone who knows better then I must confirm but I believe the Queen has said in private precedence the Princesses in their own right outrank the wives so if they made Catherine a princess in her own right she would outrank Camilla (without husbands),right?
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  #197  
Old 05-02-2011, 12:50 AM
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I'm not personally totally convinced that Anne was curtseying in that video. It's possible, but I don't think it's 100% certain.

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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
And no one curtsies or bows to each other at court, except to The Queen and Prince Philip.
I'm not sure they even usually do to Prince Philip. At the wedding, Camilla curtsied to the Queen but not to him. (I don't believe William did at RAF Valley last month, either.)
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  #198  
Old 05-02-2011, 03:44 AM
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Originally Posted by MRSJ View Post
But they do at other official events, I've seen a video of Anne curtesy to Camilla (at Ascot I believe) so Kate has to know......and someone who knows better then I must confirm but I believe the Queen has said in private precedence the Princesses in their own right outrank the wives so if they made Catherine a princess in her own right she would outrank Camilla (without husbands),right?

Which is one very good reason why she didn't make her a princess in her own right - unless she also made Camilla and Sophie ones as well.
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  #199  
Old 05-02-2011, 04:48 AM
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I'm not sure they even usually do to Prince Philip. At the wedding, Camilla curtsied to the Queen but not to him. (I don't believe William did at RAF Valley last month, either.)
IIRC when William greeted HM at the RAF base, he kissed her on both cheeks. I would imagine though at a formal state occasion, it might be totally different.
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  #200  
Old 05-02-2011, 04:51 AM
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After the kiss he bowed. It's at 0:45 in this video (which unfortunately cuts off right after):

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