Prince William and Catherine Middleton Possible Titles

[rawsilk]

Edward will outrank William and Harry, regardless if the latter two receive dukedoms or not, as the son of a sovereign outranks a grandson of the sovereign. When Charles is king, his sons will outrank his brothers, regardless of any titles William and Harry do or don't have.

One doesn't have to live in the days of Mary Tudor and Elizabeth I in order to appreciate the climate change that comes with the change of régime! It must be harrowing to be one of the members of the royal family whose fortunes go up and down based on who is sovereign at the moment. And I don't mean only for the obvious people like the Duchess of Cornwall (Camilla). Sister Morphine has pointed out how even benign members of the royal family like Edward (and thus Andrew and Anne) as siblings of the current heir to the throne will lose status as he gains it by becoming sovereign!

rawsilk

 

[Sister Morphine]

That's just the way the Order of Precedence in the UK works. There's the Order of Precedence for Ladies and the Order of Precedence for Gentlemen. What is interesting is that Viscount Severn outranks Peter Philips in the OofP for Gentlemen because his father is a prince, but Zara Philips outranks Lady Louise because her mother is a princess of the blood, rather than by marriage.

Order of precedence in England and Wales - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Queen Penelope]

I look at it this way -- I normally go to bed about midnight anyway, and to make sure I see everything from start to finish, I'd need to get up at 3 a.m. Three hours of sleep is just silly.

Coverage starts 11pm-midnight here. There was no question about staying up. When i do a night shift i usually nap most of the afternoon and i'm good to go! Was thinking of doing that, but with printing up the programme and catching the live updates on BBC World, I haven't wanted to nap. C'est la vie. Just finished making tuna canapes and i will have a pot of Earl Grey beside me!!! Hours away now!!!

 

[Osipi]

Coverage starts 11pm-midnight here. There was no question about staying up. When i do a night shift i usually nap most of the afternoon and i'm good to go! Was thinking of doing that, but with printing up the programme and catching the live updates on BBC World, I haven't wanted to nap. C'est la vie. Just finished making tuna canapes and i will have a pot of Earl Grey beside me!!! Hours away now!!!

The live coverage starts here at 3am EST and I'm set and ready for it. I made a huge turkey dinner earlier today so it'll be cold turkey sandwiches and perhaps a glass of wine or two and most definitely a pot of Earl Grey tea! This wedding is going to be totally fabulous! I'm just wondering if Kate is actually getting any sleep.

 

[Queen Penelope]

I know!. If we're this excited, imagine how excited (and nervous!) they must be!!

 

[Sister Morphine]

No doubt they're nervous, but I think they're just waiting for this to be over, since there's been such a tremendous lead-up to it.

 

[Americanskipper]

Very fair point--it looks like the definition you gave earlier is a bit more specific than what I had in mind. What I meant by "Heir Apparent" is a heir who will eventually ascend, even if he's not the first in the line of succession, because they can't be displaced.

In any case, I don't think "Heir Apparent" is an official term within the BRF anyway. My point really was that there are 2 people who will ascend the throne because they *can't* be displaced; all other people in the line of succession can be displaced further down the line by birth of other people.

And I do agree, Kate Nichols really got it wrong.

According to Wikepedia, 'An heir apparent is a person who cannot be displaced from inheriting, except by a change in the rules of succession.' As such, both Charles and William qualifiy.

 

[Cailin Deas]

My money is still on no ducal title.........and Catherine to be created a princess in her own right.......but let's wait and see.........

 

[Americanskipper]

It was Prince Edward's decision to become The Earl of Wessex and The Queen agreed. Otherwise, it is likely Edward would currently be The Duke of Cambridge.

I think William is likely to have asked his grandmother to create him an Earl for now, but we'll have to see what happens.

I agree. I have long thought that. That seems the most logical to me. I am surprised only 8 of us so far have voted for it.

 

[Zonk]

Not much longer...I think I voted for Cambridge.

I like the sound of it. I am so hyped I don't think I can sleep but I know I should.

 

[Sister Morphine]

According to Wikepedia, 'An heir apparent is a person who cannot be displaced from inheriting, except by a change in the rules of succession.' As such, both Charles and William qualifiy.

William is the heir apparent to Charles as his oldest son. He is not the heir apparent of the throne of the Commonwealth Realms. That would be his father. There is only ever one heir apparent/presumptive for any throne. You can't have two people who can inherit it.

 

[Sunnystar]

I look at it this way -- I normally go to bed about midnight anyway, and to make sure I see everything from start to finish, I'd need to get up at 3 a.m. Three hours of sleep is just silly.

I left work early because of my stupid cold (sneezing and coughing up a storm is not pleasant and I got my most pressing work out of the way) but I've been unable to really fall asleep in the 7 hours or so since I got home. I'm just too excited about the wedding!

 

[Royal Fan]

Duke of Cambridge The Viscount Fife Baron of Bershire

 

[HRHofNothing]

BBC News Channel in the UK stated a few minutes ago that there will be an announcement about titles at 8 am tomorrow BST.

So, it seems William will be given some sort of title. I really doubt that the Queen will let kate be known as Princess Catherine and it makes no sense for the Palace to announce that William is NOT getting a title, so...

 

[HRHofNothing]

My money is still on no ducal title.........and Catherine to be created a princess in her own right.......but let's wait and see.........

I seriously doubt that.....however if it does happen The Queen will need every one of her security guards to protect her from Princess Michael of Kent

 

[CarolinaLandgrave]

Sadly... I can't sleep either! And without running the risk of keeping my household up all night, I headed to weekend cabin in the mountains. I am set sit up til the end....
I sure hope he is offered (and accepts) the title Duke of Cambridge... for there is no other as fitting for this young man... How Queen Mary, with her love of family history, would smile down knowing her great-great grandson was given her grandfather's title... and it would be fitting tribute, as well, to one of the only agreeable sons of George III (IMO).

 

[Americanskipper]

William is the heir apparent to Charles as his oldest son. He is not the heir apparent of the throne of the Commonwealth Realms. That would be his father. There is only ever one heir apparent/presumptive for any throne. You can't have two people who can inherit it.

I would say Charles is the heir to the throne - and there can only be one heir to the throne.

But I would consider both Charles, William and eventually William's oldest son all heir apparents.

Otherwise, what would you call somebody like William's oldest son - who will definately inherit the throne one day, but is not next in line? Seems like that concept needs a word to describe it, and for me (and evidently for Wikedpedia though they sure are not the authority on this type of thing) it is 'heir apparent'.

 

[Sister Morphine]

I would say Charles is the heir to the throne - and there can only be one heir to the throne.

I just said that. That makes him the heir apparent of the throne of the Commonwealth Realms. Not William. Not William's eldest son (or daughter, depends on if primogeniture rules change), not anyone else. If you can only have one person inherit a throne, you can only have one person be the heir apparent/presumptive for said throne.

William will be the heir apparent to the throne of the Commonwealth Realms when Charles is king, and not a minute before then.

 

[Americanskipper]

I just said that. That makes him the heir apparent of the throne of the Commonwealth Realms. Not William. Not William's eldest son (or daughter, depends on if primogeniture rules change), not anyone else. If you can only have one person inherit a throne, you can only have one person be the heir apparent/presumptive for said throne.

William will be the heir apparent to the throne of the Commonwealth Realms when Charles is king, and not a minute before then.

If you insist on using the word 'heir apparent' to describe the next in line to the throne, what word do you use to describe William and William's oldest son - people who will eventually definately become the monarch?
Also, what then is the difference between heir and heir apparent?

 

[Sister Morphine]

If you insist on using the word 'heir apparent' to describe the next in line to the throne, what word do you use to describe William and William's oldest son - people who will eventually definately become the monarch?
Also, what then is the difference between heir and heir apparent?

I "insist" on using heir apparent to describe the next in line to the throne, because that's what the next in line to the throne is called. That's like asking why I insist on calling my mother my mother. William has no official designation in the way that his father does, and if he has a son while the Queen is still on throne, that child won't have an official designation either. When Charles is king, William will his heir apparent. When William is king, his eldest child (if primogeniture rules have changed) will be his heir apparent.

An heir is a person who inherits or has a right of inheritance in the property of another following the latter's death. An heir apparent is a person whose succession to a position appears certain. For example, my mother was my grandmother's heiress. When she died, my mother received what was left of her property and some money. Charles is his mother's heir apparent. That means his place in the line of succession to her position is certain and indefeasible. Charles cannot be displaced from his position by anyone, at any time. An heir CAN be displaced.

 

[Americanskipper]

I "insist" on using heir apparent to describe the next in line to the throne, because that's what the next in line to the throne is called. That's like asking why I insist on calling my mother my mother. William has no official designation in the way that his father does, and if he has a son while the Queen is still on throne, that child won't have an official designation either. When Charles is king, William will his heir apparent. When William is king, his eldest child (if primogeniture rules have changed) will be his heir apparent.

An heir is a person who inherits or has a right of inheritance in the property of another following the latter's death. An heir apparent is a person whose succession to a position appears certain. For example, my mother was my grandmother's heiress. When she died, my mother received what was left of her property and some money. Charles is his mother's heir apparent. That means his place in the line of succession to her position is certain and indefeasible. Charles cannot be displaced from his position by anyone, at any time. An heir CAN be displaced.

Using your definition of 'heir apparent' - William qualifies. His succession to a position (King) appears certain. He will succeed to the throne. It is certain. As long as he lives long enough, he will succeed to the throne.

However, once again, using your definition of 'heir', William is not heir because he will not inherit anything from the Queen when she dies.

Hence, using your definitions, Charles is the Heir, but Charles, William and William's oldest son are all heir apparents.

 

[Sister Morphine]

Charles is his mother's heir apparent. Period. Not William, not any children William has. You can have more than one person in line to inherit a position, but there can only be ONE at the head of the line. Charles is at the head of the line. Not William, not any children William has. The person at the head of the line is the heir apparent. Not anyone standing behind them.

CPss Victoria is her father's heiress apparent. CP Frederik is his mother's heir apparent. His son Christian is not heir apparent. CP Felipe is father's heir apparent. His daughter Leonor is not heiress apparent. CP Phillipe is his father's heir apparent. His daughter Elisabeth is not heiress apparent. CP Haakon is his father's heir apparent. His daughter Ingrid Alexandra is not heiress apparent. CP Willem-Alexander is his mother's heir apparent. His daughter Catharina-Amalia is not heiress apparent.

There can only be one at the head of the line. The head of the line is the heir/heiress apparent. Not their eldest children, not anyone else. That's how it works. That's how it's always worked, that's what these people have always been called.

 

[wbenson]

Enough .

 

[rawsilk]

That's just the way the Order of Precedence in the UK works. There's the Order of Precedence for Ladies and the Order of Precedence for Gentlemen. What is interesting is that Viscount Severn outranks Peter Philips in the OofP for Gentlemen because his father is a prince, but Zara Philips outranks Lady Louise because her mother is a princess of the blood, rather than by marriage.

Interesting. Because Lady Louise Windsor is above even the The Princess Royal, let alone Zara Phillips, in the Line of Succession.

rawsilk

 

[Americanskipper]

Enough .

I will bite my tongue since this is a day of celebration when an heir apparent probably will get a new title in about 3 hours.

I wonder if in addition to giving William a new title, I wonder if Mr. Middleton will also be given a title.

 

[Sister Morphine]

Interesting. Because Lady Louise Windsor is above even the The Princess Royal, let alone Zara Phillips, in the Line of Succession.

rawsilk

That's because her father is the son of the sovereign, and sons are ahead of daughters in the line of succession.

 

[Duchess Rennie]

I wonder if in addition to giving William a new title, I wonder if Mr. Middleton will also be given a title.

Why on earth would Mr. Middleton be given a title? Absolutely no reason whatsoever for that. Mr. Ferguson and Mr. Rhys-Jones weren't. Even Mark Phillips wasn't given one, by his and Anne's choice, of course.

 

[Americanskipper]

Why on earth would Mr. Middleton be given a title? Absolutely no reason whatsoever for that. Mr. Ferguson and Mr. Rhys-Jones weren't. Even Mark Phillips wasn't given one, by his and Anne's choice, of course.

They were not going to be grandparents of a future King, as Mr. Middleton will be. I just think the annoucement about titles today may possibly (not likely but possibly) be regarding his title.

I still think the most likely scenario will be William being made an earl today.

 

[rawsilk]

That's because her father is the son of the sovereign, and sons are ahead of daughters in the line of succession.

Indeed. That is why I find it fascinating that while determining who will reign one set of criteria is used and when determining precedence in other areas (presumably as in who sits where at the table) another set of criteria is used!

rawsilk

 

[Sister Morphine]

They were not going to be grandparents of a future King, as Mr. Middleton will be.

That doesn't entitle him to a peerage.