Prince William and Catherine Middleton Possible Titles

[Frideswide]

Yes, I do understand that of course, but if his bride were Irish, people might take a different view.

 

[scooter]

But Catherine is not Irish, so that is a moot point. Also, If she were Irish, more than likely she would be Roman Catholic which would open a whole different can of worms.

 

[Frideswide]

I was speculating about Prince Harry, so it hasn't anything to do with Catherine, and the RC possibility would not be so important in his case. I do realise the thread is about Prince William, but the Connaught comment was made as an aside.

 

[Sister Morphine]

That's not true.

Until William and Kate have a child, and the line of succession is extended, Harry's marital prospects are quite important. In order to keep his place in line, Harry can't marry a Catholic or if the girl he intends to marry is Catholic she must convert. If he marries a Catholic and renounces his place in line, until William has a child, the next in line for the throne is Beatrice (or is it the Duke of York?). Kind of puts everyone in a bit of a lurch.

Which is why the Act of Settlement is ridiculous, but that's another thread.

 

[Frideswide]

I was aware of the implications regarding marriage to Catholics, but thank you anyway.

I said that it's not so important in Harry's case, which is true - or will be once William has heirs, the prospects of which are now not as far off as they seemed this time last week

 

[branchg]

The Roman Catholic issue isn't as big of a deal as it seems. If either of the boys wanted to marry a Catholic, the prospective bride would simply have to convert to the Anglician Church, which is not a difficult move for a Catholic as the two have more in common than not.

 

[Sister Morphine]

Well Autumn Kelly did it, but Peter Philips was never in serious contention for being King of England unless everyone in place in line ahead of him died suddenly. So she didn't have to, but rather chose to. Any Catholic who would want to marry either William or Harry would have to convert. However it also depends on how steadfast in their faith the prospective bride is. If they don't feel that tied to their faith and would have no problem converting, they probably would. Now Charlotte Casiraghi, whose name I see bandied about here......I doubt very seriously she would ever convert.

Iluvbertie probably knows this, but the last Catholic monarch in England was one of the Stuarts, right? So we're talking early to mid 1600s?

 

[sirhon11234]

Which is why the Act of Settlement is ridiculous, but that's another thread.

Oh I quite agree.

As Princess William of Wales, I believe Catherine would be 3rd Lady of the Realm after The Queen and Camilla.

 

[Sister Morphine]

Wouldn't she be behind the Princess Royal?

 

[Zonk]

No, she would be 3rd Lady in the land after the Queen and Camilla.
It will go something like this: Queen, Camilla, Catherine (after marriage), Sophie and then Anne.

The women take their "precedence" from their husbands.

If Charles is dead, William dies with no heirs, then its Harry. If he dies with no heirs, than its Andrew and Beatrice. Which is always why I said...until William and Harry have kids (especially with their chosen professions) you shouldn't count Beatrice out just yet.

 

[Polly]

As was reported some time ago, HM personally changed the order of precedence for private occasions, thus: herself, then the Princess Royal, then Princess Alexandra (both being of 'the blood'), contrary to the usual position of the heir's wife as second.

The Duchess, however, ranks second in order on all official occasions, i.e. State Dinners. After her marriage, Catherine will officially be placed below Camilla, then Sophie, then Anne, i.e. she'll be fourth, as her son's daughter-in-law. Next are the York princesses, then Lady Louise.

 

[windsorgirl]

Wait, how could Catherine be behind Sophie and Anne for official occasions? Since William is ahead of both of them (Edward, in Sophie's case) officially, wouldn't Catherine be ahead of them, too?

 

[branchg]

Wait, how could Catherine be behind Sophie and Anne for official occasions? Since William is ahead of both of them (Edward, in Sophie's case) officially, wouldn't Catherine be ahead of them, too?

The official order of precedence for males places The Sovereign's sons first, then the sons of sons (male-line grandsons).

So, for females, it would be The Sovereign's daughter-in-laws (Camilla and Sophie), then The Sovereign's daughter (Anne), then The Sovereign's male-line grandson's wife (Catherine).

 

[Sister Morphine]

No, she would be 3rd Lady in the land after the Queen and Camilla. It will go something like this: Queen, Camilla, Catherine (after marriage), Sophie and then Anne.

The women take their "precedence" from their husbands.

If Charles is dead, William dies with no heirs, then its Harry. If he dies with no heirs, than its Andrew and Beatrice. Which is always why I said...until William and Harry have kids (especially with their chosen professions) you shouldn't count Beatrice out just yet.

Thank you. I wasn't sure, but I thought the Princess Royal, being a princess of the blood royal, would outrank Catherine, who would be a mere princess by marriage.

In any event, I appreciate you clearing that up for me.

 

[branchg]

Thank you. I wasn't sure, but I thought the Princess Royal, being a princess of the blood royal, would outrank Catherine, who would be a mere princess by marriage.

In official precedence, The Princess Royal, as The Sovereign's daughter, comes before the wives of sons of the sons of The Sovereign. Camilla and Sophie, as wives of the sons of The Sovereign, take precedence before Anne, but Catherine would not.

In court precedence, which is determined entirely at the will of The Sovereign, The Princess Royal comes right after The Queen, followed by Princess Alexandra, then The Duchess of Cornwall and The Countess of Wessex. So, Catherine's precedence at court remains to be seen.

 

[texankitcat]

If that is how the Queen has chosen order of precedence within the females of the Royal Family, then we can assume that Kate would come after The Countess of Wessex since she will be married to the sovereigns grandchild rather than a son. However, William IS the second in line to the throne, so you would think that would give his wife precedence after The Duchess of Cornwall. For that matter, technically Camilla as the wife of the heir to the throne should come before The Princess Royal and Princess Alexandra if this was done by rank rather than at the favor of the Queen.

When Charles becomes King, Camilla will be Queen Consort or Princess Consort, but either way she will outrank all other female Royals. Therefore she would come first. Since William would then be first in line and his rank would be raised as such, that would give his wife presidence over all other females with the exception of Camilla wouldn't it?

It's all so confusing! I have a headache....

 

[texankitcat]

As was reported some time ago, HM personally changed the order of precedence for private occasions, thus: herself, then the Princess Royal, then Princess Alexandra (both being of 'the blood'), contrary to the usual position of the heir's wife as second.

The Duchess, however, ranks second in order on all official occasions, i.e. State Dinners. After her marriage, Catherine will officially be placed below Camilla, then Sophie, then Anne, i.e. she'll be fourth, as her son's daughter-in-law. Next are the York princesses, then Lady Louise.

I didn't see this before I gave myself a headache. Okay, this answers my question.

 

[ghost_night554]

I read that William will automatically lose the title "Prince William of Wales" once he marries is that true?

 

[texankitcat]

I read that William will automatically lose the title "Prince William of Wales" once he marries is that true?

I haven't read that. From what I understand, he could be granted a Duchal title by the Queen, or he would remain HRH Prince William of Wales and Catherine would assume the female version of his title as HRH Princess William of Wales.

If I understand this correctly if he is granted a Duchal title, he will be titled HRH Prince William of Wales, The Duke of xxxxx. Kate, or Catherine would be titled HRH Princess William of Wales, Duchess of xxxxx...I think.

 

[branchg]

I read that William will automatically lose the title "Prince William of Wales" once he marries is that true?

No. He is "HRH Prince William" at birth by right of the Letters Patent of 1917 as a male-line grandson of The Sovereign. If The Queen creates him a Peer, for example, Duke of Cambridge, on his wedding day, then he will become HRH Prince William, Duke of Cambridge, and styled as "HRH The Duke of Cambridge".

Catherine takes her style, title and rank from her husband, becoming "HRH The Duchess of Cambridge", in this example after marriage, with the rank of a Princess (HRH Princess William).

 

[texankitcat]

See, I knew I had that wrong. Thank you for clarifying this! I should have this down by now.

 

[Iluvbertie]

That's not true.

Until William and Kate have a child, and the line of succession is extended, Harry's marital prospects are quite important. In order to keep his place in line, Harry can't marry a Catholic or if the girl he intends to marry is Catholic she must convert. If he marries a Catholic and renounces his place in line, until William has a child, the next in line for the throne is Beatrice (or is it the Duke of York?). Kind of puts everyone in a bit of a lurch.

Which is why the Act of Settlement is ridiculous, but that's another thread.

He wouldn't need to renounce anything as the issue only becomes relevant if he is to become King. At that point he would be overlooked for Andrew. He would still carry out all duties of the grandson, son, brother of the monarch and only when the time came would he be treated as dead.

 

[Warren]

It's all so confusing! I have a headache....

And you haven't yet explored the Order of Precedence thread - it's over 20 pages long!

 

[ghost_night554]

No. He is "HRH Prince William" at birth by right of the Letters Patent of 1917 as a male-line grandson of The Sovereign. If The Queen creates him a Peer, for example, Duke of Cambridge, on his wedding day, then he will become HRH Prince William, Duke of Cambridge, and styled as "HRH The Duke of Cambridge".

Catherine takes her style, title and rank from her husband, becoming "HRH The Duchess of Cambridge", in this example after marriage, with the rank of a Princess (HRH Princess William).

So hold on now I'm confused does William automatically get a title at marriage or is there a chance he will remain HRH Prince William of Wales?

 

[Madame Royale]

So hold on now I'm confused does William automatically get a title at marriage or is there a chance he will remain HRH Prince William of Wales?

It is entirely at Her Majesty's favour as to whether or not William is created a royal Duke upon marriage.

History would indicate it is quite likely, but no it's not set in stone.

 

[Iluvbertie]

So hold on now I'm confused does William automatically get a title at marriage or is there a chance he will remain HRH Prince William of Wales?

He could get a title in his own right or Her Majesty might decide to leave him as HRH Prince William of Wales knowing that in time he will get an array of titles, currently held by his father.

In the past royal men have been created something on the day of their wedding or the day e.g. Andrew and Edward were created Duke of York and Earl of Wessex resepectively on their wedding days but it is up to the Queen and the Queen alone.

I would suspect some title as I don't think the royal family would like to have to refer to Kate officially as HRH Princess William of Wales, which she would be if William has no other title.

 

[branchg]

I think it's a foregone conclusion he will be created a Peer on his wedding day by The Queen as the spare to the throne. The question is whether she will create him a Duke, or decide an Earldom is appropriate.

 

[texankitcat]

And you haven't yet explored the Order of Precedence thread - it's over 20 pages long!

Actually, I had not read that thread, but will make a point of it now. Thank you!

 

[texankitcat]

I think it's a foregone conclusion he will be created a Peer on his wedding day by The Queen as the spare to the throne. The question is whether she will create him a Duke, or decide an Earldom is appropriate.

I would imagine this would be something she will discuss with William to get his thoughts and feelings on the subject. Somehow, I don't see that an Earldom will be considered by the Queen. He is after all second in line to the throne, and no one else in the Royal family can unsurp that position. Has any other Royal that is second in line to the throne ever taken an earldom title instead of a Dukedom?

 

[Zonk]

I think giving an Earldom on a "Princes" marriage was first done with Prince Edward when the Queen created him the Earl of Wessex. Until the day of the wedding, people were discussing which Dukedom he would be given.

I believe Edward was given an Earldom because it is assumed he will be the Duke of Edinburgh upon Phillips (death...there is a sticky and a long thread about THAT!), and because Edward is not Top 5 in terms of Succession and it allows (IMO) him and his family to assume less of a public role. But that is just iMO.