Prince William and Catherine Middleton Possible Titles

[Tsarevitch]

Contrary to his younger brother Prince Harry, I see no necessity for a title for Prince William. Time is on his side. In a foreseeable future he will become one of the most titled Peers of the Realm. When he is created -for an example- Duke of Cambridge, then this is only for a very limited time because that Dukedom will become 'invisible' after the more prestigious titles Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall and Duke of Rothesay.

My advice: let it all go via the 'natural way':

Their Royal Highnesses the Prince and Princess William of Wales
Then: Their Royal Highnesses The Duke and Duchess of Cornwall*
Then: Their Royal Highnesses The Prince and Princess of Wales*
Then: Their Majesties The King and The Queen

(* = in Scotland: Their Royal Highnesses The Duke and Duchess of Rothesay)

 

[Hissy]

Purple_Lulu & EmpressRouge! You guys are too funny! I remember that show when I was a kid! I will have to watch again to refresh my memory.
KittyAtlanta: Wow thanks for sharing that, it's very interesting, never know what "6 degrees of separation" people will have.

Someone I'm sure will correct me if I'm wrong but I recall reading in Majesty or Royalty magazine in their history section that the Duke of Monmouth was beheaded with an ax, but it took so long to finish the job that he actually turned his head incredulously to look at the executioner. That horrible image has stuck with me since. I would prefer something other than Duke of Clarence, or Monmouth. Yet I guess it will be hard to find a title that is completely innocent of all scandal, and tragedy....

 

[HRHHermione]

I really hope Kate doesn't get stuck being called Princess William. It seems so retro and sexist. If William doesn't receive a ducal title, I really hope that Kate will be allowed to use Princess Catherine.

 

[Hissy]

Yes, I agree with hoping she would not have to become known by Princess William. It's a little disturbing actually...

Yet for some reason I have never had a problem with Princess Micheal's title. Not sure why. Maybe I have just become used to it, and she's not exactly a shrinking flower so she hasn't really lost herself in the title!

For that matter I wish she could use Kate, it is cute, and youthful, and what everybody has long these almost ten years known her by. (I realize that it is considered too familiar/casual, etc. but I believe many fans will still call her that affectionately.)

 

[Royal_Eagle]

Their Royal Highnesses the Prince and Princess William of Wales
Then: Their Royal Highnesses The Duke and Duchess of Cornwall*
Then: Their Royal Highnesses The Prince and Princess of Wales*
Then: Their Majesties The King and The Queen

(* = in Scotland: Their Royal Highnesses The Duke and Duchess of Rothesay)

Very minor correction...the first titles up there should be "Their Royal Highnesses Prince and Princess William of Wales" (no article until Prince Charles ascends to the Throne). (I know you probably didn't meant it that way, but wanted to avoid any confusion).

I'll stop being pedantic and go lie down.

But before I go, I agree with others that they should get some other title so Catherine won't be called "Princess William". I very much doubt the Queen will let her be called "Princess Catherine", hence the need of some other title.

 

[Queen Penelope]

I really hope Kate doesn't get stuck being called Princess William. It seems so retro and sexist. If William doesn't receive a ducal title, I really hope that Kate will be allowed to use Princess Catherine.

Yes, it is retro to call her Princess William, however she'll more than likely be called Princess Kate/Catherine in the press much like Diana was (incorrectly) called Princess Diana. IMO, that's why it's not a big deal if she's officially Princess William, because I am guessing she'll be generally known as Princess Kate/Catherine.

 

[HRHHermione]

I think she could use Kate if she wanted- she seems to use them interchangeably. My name is Genevieve but I typically go by Gen- I'm totally comfortable using either though, and she seems to be as well. She'll likely always be Kate to fans and tabloid press, but Catherine officially. And I don't see them letting her title be "Princess William" because it hurts the image they're building of modern monarchy. It'll be very interesting to see what happens with titles come April 29! Although... Would William receive a ducal title in the days leading up to the wedding if he's going to receive one?

 

[Royal_Eagle]

I think the usual practice is to grant the new title the day before or on the wedding day itself.

 

[Hissy]

Yes, exactly. I was quite young but I remember at Prince Andrew's wedding the commentators were saying something like: the newly styled Duke of York by the Queen that morning, etc. which was nice because it added an extra point of interest to the day to hear his new title (as well as for Fergie).

 

[Tsarevitch]

I really hope Kate doesn't get stuck being called Princess William. It seems so retro and sexist. If William doesn't receive a ducal title, I really hope that Kate will be allowed to use Princess Catherine.

In essence there is no difference between Prince and Princess William of Wales and Mrs and Mrs William Morris.

 

[HRHHermione]

In essence there is no difference between Prince and Princess William of Wales and Mrs and Mrs William Morris.

I know- I think it's kind of sexist and retro for a woman to go by Mrs. William Morris as well... Any name that replaces her first name just doesn't sound right to me personally.

 

[melissaadrian]

In essence there is no difference between Prince and Princess William of Wales and Mrs and Mrs William Morris.

This isn't the 1950's any more. Most women don't say hi I am Mrs. James Wilson, they say I am Mrs. Sarah Wilson. Women may take their husband's last name, some don't and some do the Spanish thing and use both, but they usually retain their first name.

Yes I am sure she will be called Princess Catherine in public, actually I'd not be surprised if the press calls her Princess Kate, but the Queen will not grant her that right or she'd have to for others like the Princess Michael. I'd like to see them be given a Ducal title, it could be another 10-20 years before Elizabeth dies, considering she is 80 and her mother was 102 when she died. I doubt it will take long after Charles becomes king, that he names his son Prince of Wales.

Princess Kate I think we will see by a lot of people. Look at how many people called Diana Princess Di.

 

[Tsarevitch]

Oh, undoubtedly the public will do what the public wants. The French Press still writes Lady Di, 30 years after her marriage. And the Brits used to say Queen-Mum.

Without any doubt Catherine will remain known as Kate, maybe Princess Catherine at best. A title will not help either because the tabloids will really never ever refer to her as The Duchess of Cambridge or The Duchess of Rothesay for that matter. This is no reason to throw a formal style overboard.

If William had no titles, then -formally- they would be adressed as:
Mr and Mrs William of Wales

Now with titles:
Prince and Princess William of Wales

It is archaic, but the whole monarchy hangs together from archaisms: why is the Queen still driving in a horsedrawn carriage to the Houses of Parliament? Can not she drive to it in a Toyota Prius hybrid and read the Speech from I-Pad?

 

[KittyAtlanta]

My goodness! What is wrong with being "Princess William"? Sexist - not in my book. The reason, in my mind, that the BRF is the be-all, end-all of modernity's monarchies is that they have retained most the grace and custom of bygone years.

 

[Queen Penelope]

My goodness! What is wrong with being "Princess William"? Sexist - not in my book. The reason, in my mind, that the BRF is the be-all, end-all of modernity's monarchies is that they have retained most the grace and custom of bygone years.

Very well said.

 

[HRHHermione]

Very well said.

I don't necessarily think that referring to a woman by her husband's name is a good tradition. One of the things I most admire about the British monarchy is how well they've adapted in recent years. They've managed to retain the dignity and pageantry of the monarchy while maintaing cultural relevance. I understand that it would be ridiculous for them to jump on every trend, but it's been proper business form to refer to women as Ms. first name (chosen last name) since the early eighties. At this point, Catherine using William's first name would be beyond dated. I think the beauty of this couple is that they come off as fresh and modem but still dignified, and I think allowing Catherine to use he own first name would fit with that. Granted, a ducal title means that it doesn't matter, but if they choose to
not take a ducal title- I think it would be prudent to let her be known as Princess Catherine

 

[Tsarevitch]

But then the Royal Court should throw all archaisms out of the windows. When Richard and Hyacinth Bucket are invited for the Queen's Garden Party, they will get a letter addressed to Mr and Mrs Richard Bucket and the text also does not simply say that they are welcome if they want.

No, it is By Her Majesty's Command that the Lord Chamberlain has the honor to invite them...

Oh yes, speaking about archaisms: why is the Lord Chamberlain not simply the CEO of Buckingham Ltd? Why is a Lady in Waiting not simply called Personal Assistant? And why is the Queen's Treasurer not simply the Concern Controller?

These archaisms are the spice in the sauce of the monarchy.

 

[HRHHermione]

I think that particular one isn't a quaint archaism- I think it's actually based on a very damaging notion- that a woman should take on her husband's identity and forego her own. There are very good reasons women are no longer known primarily by their husband's first name. I know people will disagree, but I'd personally hate to see Kate go by that title.

 

[Tsarevitch]

I understand but you can be comforted that everyone will refer to her as Kate or Catherine, even if she was Empress of the Seven Seas.

 

[Lady Marmalade]

I agree and disagree. I am married, use my husband's last name, but am independent in the sense of knowing I am equal to men. But, in all fairness, she is not a princess by birth, so to call her Princess Catherine is incorrect.

What is interesting, is Mary, Maxima, Mette-Marit, Mathilde, etc...are all called princess before the first name.

Also, Princess Alice, Prince Philip's mother, born a princess, was also called Princess Andrew, even though she was born a princess...

 

[jdcharlie]

I think that particular one isn't a quaint archaism- I think it's actually based on a very damaging notion- that a woman should take on her husband's identity and forego her own.

I agree. It's similar to taking out the promise to obey from the wedding vows. In the same respect, I hope Kate and William's first born, if it is a girl, is made the heir. You can't claim to be remotely modern and changing with the times and keep practices if they are damaging because they are traditional. It is a good change to make.

 

[KittyAtlanta]

Yes, the Europeans are all Princess Somebody. From a historical perspective, I like it that the BRF continues to do the Princess Male-Somebody, as it is easy to tell which royal women were born royal and those who were not.

 

[Zonk]

Let's get back on topic.

If you would like to talk about the succession laws, please do so here http://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...ement-and-the-line-of-succession-7472-38.html .

 

[NGalitzine]

I think that particular one isn't a quaint archaism- I think it's actually based on a very damaging notion- that a woman should take on her husband's identity and forego her own. There are very good reasons women are no longer known primarily by their husband's first name. I know people will disagree, but I'd personally hate to see Kate go by that title.

In this case that it what is hapening though, Catherine is taking on her husbands identity as a member of the BRF.
She is not Miss Catherine Middleton marrying Mr William Wales and becoming Mrs Catherine Wales. She is taking on the identity of a princess by virtue of marrying Prince William of Wales. She is not a princess by birth so Princess Catherine doesn't work.

 

[Tsarevitch]

In old days also royalborn ladies were called with their husband´s title like Empress Friedrich or Princess Andrew. But when they were called Princess Victoria respectively Princess Alice this was not exactly incorrect because both were still born Princesses on their own, of course.

This discussion is only for royaltywatchers and -lovers. The comman man in the street will simply say Wills and Kate.

 

[Sister Morphine]

Damaging? Sexist? Well, okay if you think so.

 

[Madame Royale]

It's just commonplace on the continent to oblige women royal's who were not born so, the right to be referred to as Princess xxxx. It's no big deal and neither should it be really, imo.

An unofficial reference (and that is all it is) toward a common born princess doesn't make a princess of the blood any less royal and takes nothing away from them personally. Especially those princesses who are the daughter of a sovereign who bare the designation of 'the'. That in itself is quite evident as to who infact they are by right of birth. No question.

It's not the done thing in England (with exception for a certain lady no longer with us) and fair enough.

 

[Tsarevitch]

Yes, the Europeans are all Princess Somebody. From a historical perspective, I like it that the BRF continues to do the Princess Male-Somebody, as it is easy to tell which royal women were born royal and those who were not.

It is true that on many continental Courts the rules have been 'eased'. But it is still a widespread custom amongst royalty and aristocracy to address according tradition when it is about formal events. An example, this Belgian family:

The eldest male holder of the title and his spouse:
Le Comte et la Comtesse du Parc Locmaria

The Count's mother (the Dowager):
La Comtesse Douairière du Parc Locmaria

The Count's children:
Le Comte Alain du Parc Locmaria
Le Comte Claude du Parc Locmaria

The Count's siblings and in-laws:
Le Comte Gaëtan du Parc Locmaria
La Comtesse Gaëtan du Parc Locmaria née De Ghellinck
Le Comte Charles du Parc Locmaria
La Comtesse Charles du Parc Locmaria née De Brocqueville



But it does not say everything, actually the Countess Gaëtan and the Countess Charles are both also born aristocrats: the first one born from the Viscounts De Ghellinck and the other born from the Counts De Brocqueville.

 

[Lady Ann]

Although, I would love to see her called anything but Princess William. I see nothing wrong with it as it wont be forever. I don't see it as sexist or damaging at all, it is tradition and that is what the royal family is all about. She will get other titles in time. IMO they will be Duke and Duchess of xxx. only a short time to wait and see now.

PS I will be very surprised if she is called Princess Catherine...

 

[branchg]

I really hope Kate doesn't get stuck being called Princess William. It seems so retro and sexist. If William doesn't receive a ducal title, I really hope that Kate will be allowed to use Princess Catherine.

She won't be "stuck" with Princess William as her style (it is not a title) because The Queen will very likely create her grandson a Duke upon marriage. She will be HRH The Duchess of X.

The tradition of "Princess Husband's Name" is one that reflects the style being limited to the children and male-line grandchildren of The Sovereign by right of birth. A woman who marries into the family is a princess by marriage only, not in her own right.