Prince of Wales or Alternate Title for William?

[PrinceOfCanada]

As a thought experiment, let's assume for the moment that Skydragon's comment here is correct.

(Basically she said she doesn't think that Charles will create William PoW if things work out that way, out of deference to the Welsh people).

If Elizabeth predeceases Charles, William will automatically become Duke of Cornwall on Charles' Accession. So that's sorted. And he could just simply be created Prince William of the UK (&c &c), Duke of Cornwall (&c &c). (I'm not sure if he and Harry would continue to be 'of Wales', as their father's title from which they derive the territorial designation would have then Merged in the Crown).

But.. Prince of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a bit of a mouthful, and isn't nearly as pithy as Prince of Wales.

What, then, could it be?

 

[Royal Fan]

I Hope he keeps it but just guessing Duke of Cardiff

 

[PrinceOfCanada]

Seeing as Cardiff is in Wales, and he would already hold a ducal title (Cornwall), I'm thinking probably not?

Perhaps I should have been more clear in my ramblings. If Prince of Wales (as Skydragon proposes) isn't going to be conferred again, then William could end up being known as Prince of _______.

 

[wbenson]

I think if that happens (which I personally doubt will happen), he'll just abandon Prince of X and use Duke of Cornwall. Creating something new to replace something that ancient would just seem too artificial.

 

[Mermaid1962]

I think that "Prince of X" would be quite artificial as well, given that The Prince of Wales has been the title for centuries. I can't imagine The Prince of England (or as some careless reports have it, "Prince William of England."), The Prince of Britain (because that would exclude Northern Ireland), or the Prince of the British Isles (because the Republic of Ireland wouldn't like that). If anything, it would have to be "The Prince of the UK and Northern Ireland," and that's just cumbersome. Prince of the Commonwealth? No...because Prince Charles doesn't seem to be that interested in the Commonwealth and I can't see him giving William a title with that in it. Okay, I give up.

I think if that happens (which I personally doubt will happen), he'll just abandon Prince of X and use Duke of Cornwall. Creating something new to replace something that ancient would just seem too artificial.

 

[Elspeth]

Any reason why he couldn't just be Prince William? He'd also be Duke of Cornwall and all the rest of the list except Earl of Chester (I expect the people of Chester would survive the terrible blow...) He's automatically HRH Prince William by virtue of being the son of the sovereign, so why the need for the creation of a specific "Prince of..." title?

I suppose it's too much to hope that this actually happens. I think this business of having an English prince being called "Prince of Wales" is an insult to the Welsh people.

 

[PrinceOfCanada]

I'm pretty certain I agree with you there, wbenson.

 

[Marengo]

Well, the most logical thing would be that the prince does become prince of Wales in due time. Perhaps it will take some years as it did for George (V) when his father became king (allegedly because Queen Alexandra was attached to the title and didn't want to 'share' it).

In any case, i suppose the Duke of Rothersay would be the most senior title left if the 'prince of Wales' title would be dropped, though the anti-English sentiments should be even stronger in Scotland than in Wales.

 

[jaynecman]

Any reason why he couldn't just be Prince William? He'd also be Duke of Cornwall and all the rest of the list except Earl of Chester (I expect the people of Chester would survive the terrible blow...) He's automatically HRH Prince William by virtue of being the son of the sovereign, so why the need for the creation of a specific "Prince of..." title?

I suppose it's too much to hope that this actually happens. I think this business of having an English prince being called "Prince of Wales" is an insult to the Welsh people.

true elspeth true

Well, the most logical thing would be that the prince does become prince of Wales in due time. Perhaps it will take some years as it did for George (V) when his father became king (allegedly because Queen Alexandra was attached to the title and didn't want to 'share' it).

In any case, i suppose the Duke of Rothersay would be the most senior title left if the 'prince of Wales' title would be dropped, though the anti-English sentiments should be even stronger in Scotland than in Wales.

marengo, i know and understand why scotland should have anti english sentiments but the welsh are anti english and have been for centurys but these days we put up with them and just moan and grumble abit every so often we get our own way we are patriotic to the last and personaly i love wales to beat england at sport any time i would like william crowned prince of wales at some point in the future but not straight after charls has been crouned king

 

[Stefan]

As a thought experiment, let's assume for the moment that Skydragon's comment here is correct.

(Basically she said she doesn't think that Charles will create William PoW if things work out that way, out of deference to the Welsh people).

If Elizabeth predeceases Charles, William will automatically become Duke of Cornwall on Charles' Accession. So that's sorted. And he could just simply be created Prince William of the UK (&c &c), Duke of Cornwall (&c &c). (I'm not sure if he and Harry would continue to be 'of Wales', as their father's title from which they derive the territorial designation would have then Merged in the Crown).

But.. Prince of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a bit of a mouthful, and isn't nearly as pithy as Prince of Wales.

What, then, could it be?

There is no need to creat him a Prince of the United Kingdom of GRat Britain and Northern Ireland as he has this title already as all chuildren and grandchildren of a Monarch. he is only not styled as a OPrince of the UK, the same as his father who is styled Prince of Wales and his uncles who are styled Duke of York and Earl of Wesses.

 

[Mermaid1962]

Yes; I suggested THE Prince of the UK and Northern Ireland as opposed to mere Princes and Princesses of the UK and Northern Ireland. Still cumbersome though.

There is no need to creat him a Prince of the United Kingdom of GRat Britain and Northern Ireland as he has this title already as all chuildren and grandchildren of a Monarch. he is only not styled as a OPrince of the UK, the same as his father who is styled Prince of Wales and his uncles who are styled Duke of York and Earl of Wesses.

 

[BeatrixFan]

What about a Berkshire title? William, Prince of Berks.

 

[PrinceOfCanada]

What about a Berkshire title? William, Prince of Berks.

Cheeky bugger

the same as his father who is styled Prince of Wales and his uncles who are styled Duke of York and Earl of Wesses.

Not quite. 'Duke', 'Earl', 'Prince' are all titles. 'HRH' would be the style.

 

[Skydragon]

As a thought experiment, let's assume for the moment that Skydragon's comment here is correct.
(Basically she said she doesn't think that Charles will create William PoW if things work out that way, out of deference to the Welsh people).

That wasn't quite what I said at all. This was my comment

It could well be that the Prince of Wales title will end with Charles. He strikes me as the type of chap to take into account what the Welsh people want and there is every possibility that the Welsh will not want the title used by an Englishman again

Not that I don't think Charles will create William PoW, just trying to point out there are no guarantees.

What about a Berkshire title? William, Prince of Berks.

It seems very fitting!

 

[branchg]

Not quite. 'Duke', 'Earl', 'Prince' are all titles. 'HRH' would be the style.

In the UK, Prince/Princess of the UK is a style as well. Until raised to the peerage, the members of the royal family are commoners and their styles as Prince/Princess are simply a recognition of their place and precedence to The Sovereign and the throne. Once created Peers, they assume their titles as a Duke, Marquess, Earl, etc.

The only exception has traditionally been The Prince of Wales, which is considered to be a peerage, although it really is not, being a personal grant from The Sovereign.

 

[Ella Kay]

In the UK, Prince/Princess of the UK is a style as well. Until raised to the peerage, the members of the royal family are commoners and their styles as Prince/Princess are simply a recognition of their place and precedence to The Sovereign and the throne. Once created Peers, they assume their titles as a Duke, Marquess, Earl, etc.

The only exception has traditionally been The Prince of Wales, which is considered to be a peerage, although it really is not, being a personal grant from The Sovereign.

That explanation makes a lot of sense, branchg -- I guess that's why women who marry a Prince of the UK are Princess X of the UK, instead of Princess First Name (like Princess Michael of Kent)? And why, for example, Sophie Rhys-Jones would have just been Princess Edward of the UK on her marriage had the Queen not made Edward The Earl of Wessex?

The only thing that's tripping me up (I think, anyway) is the commoner/peer distinction. A person can be a prince or princess and still be a commoner?

 

[PrinceOfCanada]

A person can be a prince or princess and still be a commoner?

Unless one possesses a title in the peerage, yes. E.g., 'duke' or 'earl'. Few members of the BRF are commoners. Beatrice and Eugenie are.

 

[Warren]

Without getting into an argument over definitions, the word "commoner" means different things to different people.

• For most, and in general usage, it means anyone who is not royal or aristocratic;
• Prince of Canada's usage as "one who doesn't possess a title in the peerage";
• The Concise Oxford Dictionary as "one of the common people, as opposed to the aristocracy";
• The Wiki as "one who is neither the Sovereign nor a peer";
• and, in a more jocular tone, Princess Marina's view of anyone who was not born of the blood royal.
No doubt there are others.

The more restrictive usages would class Princes William, Harry and Michael of Kent, and the Princess Royal, Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie of York and Alexandra of Kent as commoners. Whether this makes sense or not depends entirely on the meaning one puts on the word "commoner".

We don't need to get bogged down in semantics or to split hairs, and in any case this thread is to discuss "Alternate title for William".

 

[Ella Kay]

Thanks, Warren, that makes sense. I'm used to the more general sense of the word, not the more specific ones.

To swing the thread back to its original topic, I remember reading that William will likely receive a dukedom (I think Cambridge was the one being speculated) on his wedding. If he does, maybe he'll just keep using that title if he is not invested as The Prince of Wales?

 

[Amelia]

The whole business of titles and styles totally confuses me but if they didn't want to continue using the 'Prince of Wales' title for the heir to the throne could they not do like they have in other countries and just call him 'Crown Prince'? Could he not be Duke of X, Crown Prince of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland?

 

[kimebear]

The Duke of Cornwall would be the senior title over any other dukedom he might be granted for his wedding. He and Harry would also acquire the all important "The", HRH The Prince William and HRH The Prince Henry.

 

[branchg]

The Duke of Cornwall would be the senior title over any other dukedom he might be granted for his wedding. He and Harry would also acquire the all important "The", HRH The Prince William and HRH The Prince Henry.

If created The Duke of Cambridge by his grandmother, William would assume the style and title of "HRH The Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge" in England after Charles became King.

Technically, the heir to the throne holds a distinct title and style in England, Scotland and Wales (once created Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester), although in practice this is not followed formally except in Scotland, where Charles is referred to as "The Prince Charles, Duke of Rothesay". But he is also "The Prince Charles, Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester" in Wales, and "The Prince Charles, Duke of Cornwall" in England.

 

[Thomas Parkman]

Really, Good People, this is all a bit much. And let us be plain here: the title Prince of Wales has been the title granted to the heirs directly in position to inherit the English/British throne for 7-8 hundred years. Since one of the major characteristics of monarchy is its adherence to tradition why do you people always seem to have the yen to change something, on the dubious assumption that it will somehow be better. Today the colour of choice is some hideous shade of purple. In the 1960's it was some hideous colour of green or orange, which now seems quite dated and ugly, which it always was. People are fickle, so I say, if it ain't broke, why fix it. When the time comes, as it must, HRH William, Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall etc will be just fine. As it has been fine for centures as the clear title of honour for the heir to the
British throne it will be so then. Cheers.

 

[Elspeth]

Easy for you to say...

The English have always been somewhat disliked by the Welsh, partly because of the legacy of Edward I, who was the one who imposed an English Prince of Wales in the first place. I don't think it'd hurt for the monarch to stop granting Welsh and Irish titles unless it was to royals who genuinely intended to become part of those societies, which William fairly clearly doesn't.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

The Duke of Cornwall would be the senior title over any other dukedom he might be granted for his wedding. He and Harry would also acquire the all important "The", HRH The Prince William and HRH The Prince Henry.

But I thought only the children & consort of The Queen could have the "The". So won't William & Harry have to wait until they are the sons of the King to have the "the"?

 

[Ella Kay]

But I thought only the children & consort of The Queen could have the "The". So won't William & Harry have to wait until they are the sons of the King to have the "the"?

I believe that's right. I asked if William wouldn't just continue to use the ducal title he received on his wedding after Charles became king (if William wasn't made PoW), and kimebear noted that Cornwall would take precedence over any other dukedom -- and that he'd get the "The" when Charles became king as well.

 

[magnik]

What about Duke of Albany (if not a Rothesay in Scotland)? I know that's a title for a younger sons, but...

 

[PrinceOfCanada]

Unlikely. Albany is still an extant title (albeit in abeyance); the rightful titleholder could still theoretically claim it.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

I believe that's right. I asked if William wouldn't just continue to use the ducal title he received on his wedding after Charles became king (if William wasn't made PoW), and kimebear noted that Cornwall would take precedence over any other dukedom -- and that he'd get the "The" when Charles became king as well.

Oh yes, absolutely, kimebear is right. He would become Duke of Cornwall & Rothesay automatically and first and foremost upon his father's accession. Very true.

 

[Prince Daniel Vincent]

I believe William should acquire the correct title administered by the Queen.