The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #1  
Old 06-04-2015, 03:26 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Washington, D.C., United States
Posts: 345
Prince George's Title

Why isn't Prince George known as the Earl of Strathearn, taking a courtesy title from his father?

The sons of the other royal dukes (such as the Earl of St. Andrews and the Earl of Ulster) take titles from their fathers.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-04-2015, 04:06 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Ipswich, United Kingdom
Posts: 775
Because he is a Prince and third in line to the throne and future King.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-04-2015, 05:28 PM
Osipi's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 8,924
Quote:
Originally Posted by kalnel View Post
Why isn't Prince George known as the Earl of Strathearn, taking a courtesy title from his father?

The sons of the other royal dukes (such as the Earl of St. Andrews and the Earl of Ulster) take titles from their fathers.
My guess is because it is a Scottish title and not one to be used as a courtesy title. When William is in Scotland, he is known as the Earl of Strathearn similar to Charles being known as the Duke of Rothesay while he's there.
__________________
In my walks, every man I meet is my superior in some way, and in that I learn from him.
~~~Ralph Waldo Emerson~~~
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-04-2015, 05:30 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Cincinnati, United States
Posts: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by kalnel View Post
Why isn't Prince George known as the Earl of Strathearn, taking a courtesy title from his father?

The sons of the other royal dukes (such as the Earl of St. Andrews and the Earl of Ulster) take titles from their fathers.
Perhaps when George is married he will take one of his father's titles. Right now, being a Prince sounds so much better than Earl of something.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-04-2015, 05:39 PM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 10,969
George is HRH Prince George of Cambridge and therefore doesn't use one of his father's courtesy titles.

Only non-HRHs use courtesy titles e.g. when both the present Dukes of Gloucester and Kent were born they were known respectively as HRH Prince Edward of Kent and HRH Prince Richard of Gloucester. They didn't use their father's second titles (in the case of Gloucester of course Richard's late older brother was the heir anyway but he was still known as Prince William of Gloucester) even while they were the heirs. So Edward was born HRH Prince Edward of Kent and became HRH The Duke of Kent as a boy when his father died. His siblings are also a Prince and Princess. As his son isn't a Prince he uses the courtesy style of his father's second title - Earl of St Andrews. The same with the Gloucester. William was HRH Prince William of Gloucester until his death and Richard was HRH Prince Richard of Gloucester but again, because his son isn't a Prince he uses his father's second title as a courtesy and so he is known as the Earl of Ulster. Both the Earl's heirs use the Dukes' respective third titles - Baron Downpatrick and Baron Culloden. These boys will, on the deaths of their grandfathers' become the Earls of St Andrews or Ulster and finally The Dukes of Kent and Gloucester but they won't be HRHs (unless some really dreadful King Ralph scenario happens).

Their sons aren't HRHs and so use the second title as a courtesy as does Prince Edward's son, James who uses Viscount Severn as he isn't a HRH Prince - as per parental request and HM's permission.


George will, in all likelihood only add titles. Using Edward VIII as the example - the last great-grandson of a monarch destined to be a monarch from birth:


HRH Prince George of Cambridge
HRH Prince George of Cornwall and Cambridge
HRH Prince George of Wales
HRH The Duke of Cornwall
HRH The Prince of Wales
HM The King.


He may have a dukedom in his own right if the monarch of the day so decides of course.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-04-2015, 05:58 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: *******, Canada
Posts: 5,687
The style or title of Prince, apart from the Prince of Wales, is a title of courtesy in Britain anyway. It can be given or revoke for any reason simply at HM's pleasure without the advice of the government. In the case of Prince George the courtesy comes from the Sovereign.

A Prince is usually, but not always, created a Duke. A substantive title of their own. Prince Edward being the first son of a Sovereign in this dynasty going back to George I not created a Duke but rather an Earl.

James doesn't have the title of Prince (itself a courtesy) so he uses his father's lesser title by courtesy
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-04-2015, 06:17 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Ipswich, United Kingdom
Posts: 775
Quote:
Originally Posted by mslewis View Post
Perhaps when George is married he will take one of his father's titles. Right now, being a Prince sounds so much better than Earl of something.
I don't think William will be Duke of Cambridge when George is married.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-04-2015, 08:07 PM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 10,969
Quote:
Originally Posted by royalistbert View Post
I don't think William will be Duke of Cambridge when George is married.
Depends. William may still be Duke of Cambridge but be using a higher titles such as Prince of Wales or he could still be Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge.

He could also be King.

Then again George could be King before he marries.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-04-2015, 08:48 PM
Roslyn's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tintenbar, Australia
Posts: 3,937
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Depends. William may still be Duke of Cambridge but be using a higher titles such as Prince of Wales or he could still be Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge.

He could also be King.

Then again George could be King before he marries.
George may be gay and never marry. Well, not marry a woman.
__________________
"That's it then. Cancel the kitchen scraps for lepers and orphans, no more merciful beheadings, -- and call off Christmas!!!"
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-04-2015, 09:19 PM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is offline
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 3,326
Quote:
Originally Posted by kalnel View Post
Why isn't Prince George known as the Earl of Strathearn, taking a courtesy title from his father?



The sons of the other royal dukes (such as the Earl of St. Andrews and the Earl of Ulster) take titles from their fathers.

That's not true.

Charles is a son of a Royal Duke and has never used any of his father's titles.

William was the son of a Royal Duke and never used any of his father's titles either.

A person only uses curtesy titles if try don't hold their own titles - if a person has their own peerage or holds royal titles in their own right they don't also use curtesy titles.

As the eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales George was entitled to being a Prince in his own right the moment he was born, thus never needed to use his father's curtesy titles.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 06-04-2015, 09:42 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 4,462
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
The style or title of Prince, apart from the Prince of Wales, is a title of courtesy in Britain anyway. It can be given or revoke for any reason simply at HM's pleasure without the advice of the government. In the case of Prince George the courtesy comes from the Sovereign.

A Prince is usually, but not always, created a Duke. A substantive title of their own. Prince Edward being the first son of a Sovereign in this dynasty going back to George I not created a Duke but rather an Earl.

James doesn't have the title of Prince (itself a courtesy) so he uses his father's lesser title by courtesy
I'm not sure that you can be 'de-princed' (or de-princessed) under the British system, Rudolph. I know that King George V did so in 1917 to some of his relatives when he removed their princely German titles and gave them (lesser) British ones. However, in modern times, with the exception of Princess/Lady Patsy Ramsay (who removed her royal title by her own wish) I know of no male or female born a prince or princess of the House of Windsor (or Hanover or Stuart etc for that matter) who have had that particular style of address removed from them.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06-04-2015, 09:46 PM
Cris M's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Niteri, Brazil
Posts: 847
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
However, in modern times, with the exception of Princess/Lady Patsy Ramsay (who removed her royal title by her own wish) I know of no male or female born a prince or princess of the House of Windsor (or Hanover or Stuart etc for that matter) who have had that particular style of address removed from them.
It happened with Prince Alastair of Connaught.

Alastair, 2nd Duke of Connaught and Strathearn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
__________________
If a thousand thrones I had, I would give a thousand thrones to get the slaves free in Brazil."

Princess Isabel (1846-1921), Princess Imperial and Regent of the Empire of Brazil, after she signed the Golden Law, in 1888, abolishing slavery in Brazil.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-04-2015, 10:00 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 4,462
Thanks, Cris. Forgot about the unfortunate Alistair. (I've always been intrigued by his death.)

His styling was removed in that large reconstruction that happened in 1917. This restricted the titles of Princes/Princesses to the main line of descent. Edward's wasn't removed when he abdicated. It hasn't happened since and it's unlikely to happen to George.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06-05-2015, 05:09 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: *******, Canada
Posts: 5,687
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
I'm not sure that you can be 'de-princed' (or de-princessed) under the British system, Rudolph. I know that King George V did so in 1917 to some of his relatives when he removed their princely German titles and gave them (lesser) British ones. However, in modern times, with the exception of Princess/Lady Patsy Ramsay (who removed her royal title by her own wish) I know of no male or female born a prince or princess of the House of Windsor (or Hanover or Stuart etc for that matter) who have had that particular style of address removed from them.
You most certainly can. Not only 'de-princed' as we have seen with the Wessex children. You can also be 'princed' as we have seen with Charlotte. Just a few short years ago she would have been Lady Charlotte. She is as we know HRH Princess Charlotte of Cambridge.

In 1917, George V issued letters patent that precisely regulated these matters, specifying that a certain set of individuals were exclusively entitled to certain styles. Before 1917, styles and titles were regulated by a mixture of partial rules and customs.

But Letters Patent don't bind future monarchs, The Letters Patent of Queen Victoria didn't bind George V. Most importantly Letters Patent aren't the only way to create a Prince or Royal Highness unlike a Peer.

Common law has evolved in such a way that the Queen is free to style her family in the manner she chooses. IT's part of royal prerogative that's outside court challenge.

Prince: This style "is purely a courtesy and the holders of that title remain commoners until they are raised to the Peerage, the only exception being the eldest son of the Sovereign who at birth or, as in the case of Prince Charles, at his mother's accession to the Throne, immediately becomes Duke of Cornwall" (H. Austin Strutt, assistant under-secretary of state, in a memo dated June 17th, 1954 prepared for the Home Secretary; HO 286/50).

Contrast this with a peer. Holders of peerages are not just recipients of honours emanating from the sovereign, they are called to play an important constitutional role. For this reason, the dignity to which this role is linked has become part of constitutional law, and around it has grown a substantial body of law defining and protecting the rights and duties of holders of peerages. In particular, a peerage may only be created in a very specific form (by letters patent passed under the Great Seal) on government advice; holders of peerages cannot be deprived except by an Act of Parliament; peerages may be resigned only under certain procedures defined by statutes; etc.

Back to Prince George. Under Common Law being a prince doesn't give a person any rights that the average joe doesn't have. Prince Harry has no more legal rights than Peter Philips. William by virtue of being a Peer does.

The title of prince has been used in Britain solely to denote descent from a sovereign. Who, exactly, was so designated, has of course varied with time,

George doesn't use one of his father's title as a courtesy simply because he has his own title of courtesy 'Prince'
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 06-05-2015, 05:33 PM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Waterford, United States
Posts: 1,699
Besides, it would sound ridiculous to say, "The Earl of Strathearn enjoyed an afternoon in the park, toddling around the playground and digging in a sandbox. His nanny helped him climb the jungle gym." :)
__________________
"If you look for the bad in people expecting to find it, you surely will.

Abraham Lincoln
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 01-27-2016, 05:09 PM
CyrilVladisla's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Conneaut, United States
Posts: 2,802
Upon Charles' accession to the throne, Prince William shall become Duke of Cornwall. Will George become HRH Prince George of Cornwall and Cambridge?
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01-27-2016, 05:22 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Torrance, United States
Posts: 3,227
If William becomes Prince of Wales then George and Charlotte might have "of Wales" added to their current titles.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 01-27-2016, 05:26 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: *******, Canada
Posts: 5,687
Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post
Upon Charles' accession to the throne, Prince William shall become Duke of Cornwall. Will George become HRH Prince George of Cornwall and Cambridge?
Yes as William will be His Royal Highness The Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge

From 22 January 1901 9 November 1901, the future George V was styled His Royal Highness The Duke of Cornwall and York before being made Prince of Wales
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 01-27-2016, 05:39 PM
AdmirerUS's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Midwest, United States
Posts: 4,946
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
... For this reason, the dignity to which this role is linked has become part of constitutional law, and around it has grown a substantial body of law defining and protecting the rights and duties of holders of peerages. In particular, a peerage may only be created in a very specific form (by letters patent passed under the Great Seal) on government advice; holders of peerages cannot be deprived except by an Act of Parliament; peerages may be resigned only under certain procedures defined by statutes; etc.

Back to Prince George. Under Common Law being a prince doesn't give a person any rights that the average joe doesn't have. Prince Harry has no more legal rights than Peter Philips. William by virtue of being a Peer does.
So, I have always wondered about the rights of peers, because any number of peerages come without income. Cambridge is one such.
Wikipedia (not the best - but at least it is editable and caries sources) says "Only three survived into the 20th century: the right to be tried by other peers of the realm instead of juries of commoners, freedom from arrest in civil (but not criminal) cases, and access to the Sovereign to advise him or her on matters of state.[1] The right to be tried by other peers was abolished in 1948. Legal opinion considers the right of freedom from arrest as extremely limited in application, if at all. The remaining privilege is not exercised and was recommended for formal abolition in 1999, but has never been formally revoked."

So, in short, you get the title and the respect that goes with it, but not much else in most cases.
And I'm not saying George should not be respected. I'm just saying I was surprised how meager (to US eyes) the rights of a peer are, compared to the size I assumed they were.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 01-27-2016, 06:05 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: *******, Canada
Posts: 5,687
^^^

Hereditary Peers still have a very important role, namely to sit in the House of Lords (diminished but not eliminated by the House of Lords Act 1999)

92 hereditary peers still sit in the Lords

This does not apply to royal peers however. In 1999 life peerages were offered to members of the royal family with new hereditary peerages, but this offer was declined
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Prince Feisal's wife granted royal title Rossina King Abdullah's Brothers 9 08-05-2014 11:11 PM
Prince of Wales - Title, Succession and Wales Jo of Palatine British Royals 88 01-01-2014 07:59 AM
Prince of Wales or Alternate Title for William? PrinceOfCanada The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge and Family 77 06-17-2011 03:19 AM
Crown Prince Frederik's Full Title politikgirl Crown Prince Frederik, Crown Princess Mary and Family 11 01-31-2006 11:31 AM
Crown Prince Hamzah relieved of his title: November 28, 2004 Amoula Current Events Archive 338 04-22-2005 09:28 AM




Popular Tags
albania best outfit birthday carl gustaf chris o'neill crown princess mary crown princess mary fashion crown princess victoria current events denmark fashion poll general news hereditary grand duchess stphanie hereditary grand duke guillaume infanta cristina infanta leonor infanta sofia iaki urdangarn king felipe king felipe vi king philippe letizia monarchy news november 2016 october 2016 picture of the week prince alexander prince carl philip prince charles prince daniel prince felix prince gabriel prince nicholas prince oscar princess claire of luxembourg princess estelle princess leonore princess madeleine princess mary princess mary fashion princess mette-marit fashion and style princess of asturias princess sofia princess victoria queen elizabeth ii queen letizia queen letizia casual outfits queen letizia daytime fashion queen letizia fashion queen mathilde queen mathilde daytime fashion queen mathilde fashion queen maxima queen maxima casual wear queen maxima daytime fashion queen maxima fashion queen maxima hats queen maxima style queen rania queen silvia state visit stephanie sweden swedish royal family the duchess of cambridge casual wear the duchess of cambridge daytime fashion the duchess of cambridge fashion the duchess of cambridge hats victoria


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:27 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2017
Jelsoft Enterprises