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  #181  
Old 09-13-2014, 05:08 PM
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So after Phillip passes who gets Edinburgh?


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  #182  
Old 09-13-2014, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
There are at least two precedents for the combining of the Cornwall title with another Dukedom. These are the most recent but I have only gone back about 300 years.

Frederick, Prince of Wales was Duke of Cornwall and Edinburgh from June 1727 until January 1729 - or 19 months before his father created him Prince of Wales.

George V was HRH The Duke of Cornwall and York from January to November 1901.

It would therefore be assumed that William will be HRH The Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge from the death of his grandmother until such time as his father decides to grant him the title Prince of Wales - if he ever does do so.

If Charles predeceases his mother then William isn't eligible for the Cornwall title which we saw with George III who was never Duke of Cornwall although he did inherit his father's Edinburgh title. His grandfather created him Prince of Wales a month after Frederick's death.

The practice for Royal Dukedoms is that when their sons are also Princes those princes to not use the courtesy title of their father's titles e.g. The Duke of Kent was known as HRH Prince Edward of Kent from his birth until he succeeded to the title just as his brother and sister are still known as HRH Prince/Princess; The Duke of Gloucester was HRH Prince Richard of Gloucester from birth until her inherited the title and Prince Charles was HRH Prince Charles from birth until his mother's accession. None of these princes used their father's subsidiary titles as courtesy titles but were known as Princes from birth.

When the son isn't a Prince then he uses the courtesy title - e.g. James uses Viscount Severn because he isn't a Prince (and I am not going to debate that again - I know the arguments both ways), and the Dukes of Gloucester and Kent's heirs use the second titles and the grandsons use the third titles.

So George won't use Cambridge as a subsidiary title when William becomes Duke of Cornwall - anymore than the future Edward VIII used York after his grandfather became King in 1901. He went from being HRH Prince Edward of York to HRH Prince Edward of Cornwall and York to HRH Prince Edward of Wales inside 9 months and George would follow that precedent.

The only way George gains the Cambridge title is if William dies before becoming King - then regardless of any other titles George may have he would inherit Cambridge as well.

George could, in theory, also inherit Edinburgh (hopefully this scenario would not play out) if Charles and William were to predecease Philip and The Queen then George would be Duke of Edinburgh and Cambridge - inheriting Edinburgh from his great-grandfather and then Cambridge from his father. Both would then merge with the Crown when George succeeded of course.
Thanks so much for explaining this in the way you did. My question is why do you see some items with William last name on them as Wales after William was made Duke of Cambridge should it not be Cambridge since that is his title. It was on the name part of his military uniform. His son after all is Prince George of Cambridge?
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  #183  
Old 09-13-2014, 05:20 PM
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Possible names for the 2nd child of the Duke & Duchess of Cambridge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
So after Phillip passes who gets Edinburgh?


LaRae
If Philip dies before the Queen, Charles inherits the Edinburgh title and when the Queen dies, it merges with the Crown and could then be given to Edward. If Charles is already King when Philip dies, Charles would inherit and immediately merges with the Crown.

William used the name William Wales while at St Andrews and in the military. So he was still Ft Lt Will Wales after his marriage.

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  #184  
Old 09-13-2014, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by DukeofMontpelier View Post
Thanks so much for explaining this in the way you did. My question is why do you see some items with William last name on them as Wales after William was made Duke of Cambridge should it not be Cambridge since that is his title. It was on the name part of his military uniform. His son after all is Prince George of Cambridge?

William ceased to be "of Wales" when he became Duke of Cambridge.

However, the use of "Wales" as a surname was never because it was his legal name, but rather by choice. I suspect that since he had been "Wales" throughout his schooling and military career up to that point, William saw no need to change it even if "Cambridge" would have been appropriate as well.

It will be interesting to see if he goes by Wales or Cambridge at this point in his career.
  #185  
Old 09-13-2014, 05:56 PM
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As far as last names are concerned (most royals don't use them it seems) I would think William is a Mountbatten since the DoE took that name and gave up his Greek/Danish titles and became a Brit before he married the Queen (then Princess Elizabeth). I think he might of been a Glucksberg otherwise but the era this all went on in, too German or foreign sounding.

Although there is the Windsor thing that was adopted. I'm not sure why they (William etc) didn't just use Windsor.


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  #186  
Old 09-13-2014, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
As far as last names are concerned (most royals don't use them it seems) I would think William is a Mountbatten since the DoE took that name and gave up his Greek/Danish titles and became a Brit before he married the Queen (then Princess Elizabeth). I think he might of been a Glucksberg otherwise but the era this all went on in, too German or foreign sounding.

Although there is the Windsor thing that was adopted. I'm not sure why they (William etc) didn't just use Windsor.


LaRae

The House name is Windsor. The male-line descendants of the Queen and the DoE who are not royals have a surname of Mountbatten-Windsor.

It is argued that the House under Charles will be a cadet branch of the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonserburg-Glücksburg, in a comparable way to how the House now is a cadet branch of the House of Wettin. Either way, it is expected that the House's name will remain Windsor, although Charles could issue a statement saying otherwise if he so wished.

The royals themselves do not have a surname. William's full name is William Arthur Philip Louis - no surname. When they chose to use a surname they can go one of several ways - they can use their titles as a surname (making William's surname "Duke of Cambridge"), they can use Windsor, they can use Mountbatten-Windsor, or they can use their territorial designation. William and Harry have typically used "Wales" as a surname, while Beatrice and Eugenie use "York." Edward used "Windsor" as a surname in his career prior to his marriage and "Wessex" afterwards.
  #187  
Old 09-13-2014, 06:34 PM
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If I am remembering things right, when Wills and Kate filed a lawsuit in France when those photos were taken, William used the surname of Mountbatten-Windsor on the legal document. Kate used Catherine Middleton as women use their maiden name in France. The document is probably here in the archives somewhere.
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  #188  
Old 09-13-2014, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Ish View Post
William ceased to be "of Wales" when he became Duke of Cambridge.

However, the use of "Wales" as a surname was never because it was his legal name, but rather by choice. I suspect that since he had been "Wales" throughout his schooling and military career up to that point, William saw no need to change it even if "Cambridge" would have been appropriate as well.

It will be interesting to see if he goes by Wales or Cambridge at this point in his career.
Thanks. Makes sense.
  #189  
Old 09-13-2014, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
If I am remembering things right, when Wills and Kate filed a lawsuit in France when those photos were taken, William used the surname of Mountbatten-Windsor on the legal document. Kate used Catherine Middleton as women use their maiden name in France. The document is probably here in the archives somewhere.
Thats in French law not British. British royals with HRH don't have surnames. They are not Mr, Miss, Ms or Mrs. The HRH is their form of address. Non titled Royals use the surname Mountbatten-Windsor. Titled royals would use Mountbatten-Windsor if needed in legal matters.
  #190  
Old 09-13-2014, 09:52 PM
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The only person who uses Mountbatten-Windsor officially, of course, is Louise who is Lady Louise Mountbatten-Windsor which is a clear indication of what the family surname is, if and when they actually need to use one.

Traditionally the children of Royal Dukes have used their father's title as a 'surname' of a sort but more to distinguish which family they belong to - very useful for Queen Victoria's grandchildren as Princess Victoria could have been a granddaughter through a number of her children but using 'of Hesse' or 'of Wales' meant that everyone knew which person was being referred to.
  #191  
Old 09-13-2014, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
The only person who uses Mountbatten-Windsor officially, of course, is Louise who is Lady Louise Mountbatten-Windsor which is a clear indication of what the family surname is, if and when they actually need to use one.

Traditionally the children of Royal Dukes have used their father's title as a 'surname' of a sort but more to distinguish which family they belong to - very useful for Queen Victoria's grandchildren as Princess Victoria could have been a granddaughter through a number of her children but using 'of Hesse' or 'of Wales' meant that everyone knew which person was being referred to.

Wouldn't James likely use it as well? I mean in school and similar settings, not on the CC. Or is it common for the elder sons of British peers to go by their courtesy title?
  #192  
Old 09-13-2014, 10:40 PM
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Viscount Linley goes by David Linley for his work instead of Armstrong-Jones. So James might be just James Severn.


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  #193  
Old 09-13-2014, 11:02 PM
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Can we get back to given names for the little Prince or Princess? :)
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  #194  
Old 09-14-2014, 06:33 AM
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British Royal Family History
  #195  
Old 09-14-2014, 06:45 AM
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Wouldn't James likely use it as well? I mean in school and similar settings, not on the CC. Or is it common for the elder sons of British peers to go by their courtesy title?
The CC would refer to James as 'Viscount Severn' just as it refers to the Earl of St Andrews or the Earl of Ulster - the heirs to the Dukes of Kent and Gloucester.

James' children, in time will use Mountbatten-Windsor as their official surname.
  #196  
Old 09-16-2014, 10:07 PM
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I am quite liking Edmund for a boy, but I don't know if they would actually go there. The names George and Edmund are so handsome together. I think it would be rad if they used Albert in the middle, thereby continuing the tradition of including Albert in the second son's name. However, seeing as they didn't continue the Arthur tradition, I doubt they will do it this time around. Edmund Philip James or Edmund Philip David are both very beautiful combinations.

As for a girl, I am sticking to me guess from when they were expecting George, which is Matilda. I think it has everything. It has the history in Empress Matilda; it has the modern feel to it, so it doesn't sound way too old; and it sounds really nice with George. George and Matilda – that's a set of sibling names meant for each other. Matilda Margaret Elizabeth, Matilda Elizabeth Rose or Matilda Eleanor Elizabeth are currently my top picks for a wee princess.
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  #197  
Old 09-16-2014, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Archduchess Zelia View Post
I am quite liking Edmund for a boy, but I don't know if they would actually go there. The names George and Edmund are so handsome together. I think it would be rad if they used Albert in the middle, thereby continuing the tradition of including Albert in the second son's name. [b]However, seeing as they didn't continue the Arthur tradition,[b] I doubt they will do it this time around. Edmund Philip James or Edmund Philip David are both very beautiful combinations.

As for a girl, I am sticking to me guess from when they were expecting George, which is Matilda. I think it has everything. It has the history in Empress Matilda; it has the modern feel to it, so it doesn't sound way too old; and it sounds really nice with George. George and Matilda – that's a set of sibling names meant for each other. Matilda Margaret Elizabeth, Matilda Elizabeth Rose or Matilda Eleanor Elizabeth are currently my top picks for a wee princess.

What Arthur tradition?

Sure many British royals have had Arthur in their name, and both William and Charles have had it in their names, there's no real tradition of first born British royals having Arthur in their name - I think Charles might be the first since Henry VII's eldest son (the pre-Hanoverian royals typically only having one name).

In contrast, every second born son of a monarch or individual in the direct line of succession since Queen Victoria has had Albert in their name. However, up until QEII's generation, almost every British Prince had Albert in their name in general, including all of the older brothers of those second sons. The tradition of limiting the name just to the second sons, if it can be considered a tradition, started with QEII's sons.
  #198  
Old 09-16-2014, 10:50 PM
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Well, pardon my bad phrasing then, not a tradition but a pattern. George VI, Charles and William all had/have Arthur in their names and I, for one, thought that William and Catherine would have continued that pattern, but they didn't. I do see what you mean about Albert contrary to Arthur being a tradition, but I also think that mainly has something to do with Queen Victoria's strong influence on the names of her descendants and HM and Charles wanting to honour their father/grandfather.
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  #199  
Old 09-16-2014, 10:56 PM
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It's well known that dynastically, Queen Victoria wanted her and Albert's descendants to have Albert prominently among their forenames if male and Victoria if female.

She undoubtedly intended for their eldest son to reign as Albert Edward. However Edward VIII had other ideas when he came to the throne.

After the Duke of Clarence's premature death Queen Victoria was faced with having a grandson named George as second in line. There's a well-known story that she tried her hardest to make him promise to include Albert in his name when he eventually would succeed, but Prince George refused.

Since the war Victoria has not been used among the British royal family and Albert very sparingly. I think Harry was the last. A lesson perhaps in trying to impose your will on future generations.
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Old 09-16-2014, 10:58 PM
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Sorry, mistyped Edward VII as VIII!!
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