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  #521  
Old 11-14-2011, 06:45 PM
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As always, I agree with everything you say, Nicholas. I am sure that 'Middleton Money' would be very welcome in some aristocrtic circles to shore up the stately pile - thereby, in fact, carrying on the tradition of the 'impoverished aristocrat marrying for money' that was first seen in the emergence of the American Heiresses who came in some number to the UK starting in the later part of the 19th Century.

And let us not forget that the Buckingham Palace Press Office made it clear that the Middletons had offered to contribute to the expenses of the Royal Wedding 'and that the Queen had been pleased to accept'.

I also think your point about the 'new' members of the Upper Class is very well-made! Another indicator of the Upper Class is the fact that often 'they don't care a damn'. A newer member of the Upper Classes often adopts a form of 'over-grand' approach. One of the probably fictious statements attributed to the Queen about the about to be married- Princess Michael [when the latter was apparently acting in a 'too royal manner'] was that HM thought Princess Michael 'far too grand for us'!

And yes, you are right about 'social' publicity. I presume that nowadays, some events are seen to be 'respectable enough to be publicised' and some are felt to be 'a litle bit naff' whoever might be attending.

Of course, we DON'T actually know what the Loudons' real thoughts are. At the end of the day, I am sure that at the very least they would be reassured that Pippa is not going to be a fortune-hunter. As sister of the future queen, her social credentials are impeccable. If the Loudons are upset, then I can only assume it is a matter of degree, based on just a few too many 'public' appearances. And in this regard, I would say that although I do not have a scrap of evidence to support my contention, I just get the feeling that perhaps the Queen will be a bit concerned if she feels that Pippa's slightly raised social profile is a form of cashing-in on her sister's royal status. Just a thought.

Alex
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  #522  
Old 11-14-2011, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
While I agree with you in general Alex about how some families regard themselves, I do feel that to a certain extent a lot of them are living as if it was still pre 1939. I knew a lot of boys who were from aristocratic or solid county families at school and later at uni who honestly still talked as if it was the days of the Raj. I also knew that many of their families were struggling to pay for the school fees and would not honestly object if their sons managed to marry a girl who could bring enough cash into the family so that they could repair a roof on the family pile or save them from having to sell off a piece of the family heritage.

Nicholas
This was true a hundred years ago as well, when many scions of the British nobility wed American heiresses to shore up the family fortune.
(I wonder how many people who sneer at the Middletons have something like this in the family tree?)
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  #523  
Old 11-14-2011, 06:50 PM
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Just as I have posted, Mirabel - it seems that I beat you to it by about 60 seconds!

Alex
  #524  
Old 11-14-2011, 07:21 PM
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The discussion about the suitability of the Middelton family reminds me of a comment attributed to Queen Victoria when one of her childrren was marrying. I think it was when Prncess Beatrice married Henry of Battenberg which caused negative comments in Germany because of his morganatic background. Her comment was something along the lines of "If the Queen of England decides that someone is good enough to marry her daughter who are they to criticize".

Nicholas
  #525  
Old 11-14-2011, 07:25 PM
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There is no other country where you can experience the old class system as much as in UK,in other countries most people look down on homeless people or individuals who live from social welfare,but in Great Britain it even matters what kind of language you use and what kind of hobbies you have,not to mention a lot of other little things that are highly important to posh,snobbish people who believe they are superior by birth.
When I went to an English boarding school an older woman told me that my English is not bad but I should only use certain expressions if I want to fit in,because thatīs important in this environment and if you want to survive socially you need to adapt.Because Carol Middletonīs alleged social faux pas was mentioned earlier,she told me I should never ask for the "toilet" but for the "lavatory" and donīt say "ok" because itīs considered American (=vulgarity!) etc.etc.
Of course there are also nice upper class people & I have experienced that most accomplished men/women who have worked for their money or achieved something in science,art or other subjects donīt need all those titles and snobbish behaviour.I guess it is just used to compensate for lack of intelligence,character or taste and it shows just how shallow they are if they look down on hard-working people like the Middletons.
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  #526  
Old 11-14-2011, 07:31 PM
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Very well said. What is "one" to do if followed by the paparazzi (who did not exist when most of these rules came into being)? Does that mean that said person should not show themselves in public?

As to Pippa's dress, I am guessing it would have been preferable had she been dressed in something akin to a 1950 debutante gown, i.e., fitted at the waist with a full skirt and cap sleeves with a high round neckline.

Sounds about right to me. IF that is the case, then so called class or no class these people need to move into at least the latter half of the 20th century and preferably into the first decade of the 21st. Not meaning to be unkind, but really .........

At the same time, I would not put it past the DM in making up much of the comments attributed to the Loudons AND the "close" friends of the couple.
  #527  
Old 11-14-2011, 07:42 PM
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^^^^
Just because one was born into an old aristocratic family does not mean you are brainless, without character or taste or shallow.

It is however true that an Englishman is marked by his accent and how he speaks and going to good schools still counts a lot towards a persons success in most fields.
It is also true that in political life at least there can be cases of reverse snobbery. Both David Cameron and Nick Clegg prefer not to draw attention to their rather "posh" (a non U phrase the DM would use) backgrounds. They both come from families with aristocratic backgrounds and went to rather good schools. Cameron even claimed not to know he descended from William IV which I find hard to believe. Old Labourite Tony Benn gave up his peerage but he still spent his weekends at his family estate once the cameras were off.
  #528  
Old 11-14-2011, 08:34 PM
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I guess you didnīt get my point-I believe that talented,smart,accomplished people donīt have the need to show off they come from a better background or social class because everyone accepts and respects them for what they have done.But some use titles and snobbery to make other people feel they are not good enough for their company.
If I thought that the old aristocratic families "are brainless, without character or taste or shallow", I wouldnīt have joined TRF;-) I was just pointing out some oddities and peculiarities,no need to be offended...
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Avoiding danger in the long run is no safer than outright exposure.
Life is either a daring adventure,or nothing
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  #529  
Old 11-14-2011, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmericanQueen View Post
I read this article this morning too. What struck me as interesting is her portrayal as a social climber. Recently a well connected friend of mine had lunch with a group of British reporters who went on and on about how the Middleton's are the most ambitious social climbers England has seen in generations. One reporter even went as far as comparing the Middleton's to the Boleyns. My point is that it probably wasn't the Loudons who came forward .. I believe this is just how the British press views the Middletons. I think in some ways they shower Pippa with media attention because they want to expose those characteristics. For whatever reason, I think the concept of the Middletons as "social climbers" is just a widely held estimation among the press.
The accusations that they are social climbers have been around for a long time. I was always shocked they were together because he was more discreet while she is very social. As for the Middleton family if you want to run in those circles then they should prepare for the press attention that comes with it. After all England is a very class conscious society so someone not from that upper "echelon" hanging around with those types is bound to get people talking.
  #530  
Old 11-14-2011, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by jemagre View Post
The accusations that they are social climbers have been around for a long time. I was always shocked they were together because he was more discreet while she is very social. As for the Middleton family if you want to run in those circles then they should prepare for the press attention that comes with it. After all England is a very class conscious society so someone not from that upper "echelon" hanging around with those types is bound to get people talking.
I'm not sure what circles the Middletons "run" in; I believe that they have a set of friends in the country who own racehorses. But at any rate, what circles should they run in?
They are quite likely to become the grandparents of a future Monarch. It may be that they will be sought after by rather grand friends. Are they never allowed to socialize with anyone other than their middle class neighbors?
Other than around the time of the wedding, I really have seen very little of them in the press. They live in a village and run a business, and they can't avoid being photographed when they occasionally attend a function or go to the theater in town.
  #531  
Old 11-15-2011, 12:07 AM
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Perhaps the DM article should be given short shrift, since the Loudons are clearly quite U, and it would be decidedly un-U to make a public remark with attribution to a newspaper, and, in particular, the DM.

Pippa's dress at the wedding was, however, another matter.
While she was likely not aware in advance of the full effect of her dress, it did seem to draw too much attention to itself, and that should have been easy to predict. That, to many observers, was a misstep. However the deed is done and she must bear the consequences: i.e., the good AND the bad...

I hope that the appearance in the Abbey and the resulting publicity and attention she has received will not damage her marital prospects. I rather feel sorry for her...
  #532  
Old 11-15-2011, 12:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Susanna Wynne View Post
Pippa's dress at the wedding was, however, another matter.
While she was likely not aware in advance of the full effect of her dress, it did seem to draw too much attention to itself, and that should have been easy to predict. That, to many observers, was a misstep. However the deed is done and she must bear the consequences: i.e., the good AND the bad...
I hope people do remember that Catherine, her sister AND the bride, would have chosen and had the final say on the dress of her Maid of Honour. Pippa would have had little to no say in that regard.

Her chance of marrying well have not diminished due to her bridesmaid dress or even the media's obsession with the younger sister of a future Queen consort. We all know The Daily Mirror is a trash newspaper. Quoting, or even believing what they write is plain ridiculous!
  #533  
Old 11-15-2011, 01:04 AM
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I am SOOOO confused as to why there is even this long of a discussion about it. To be honest, the Loudons probably never even said anything to the Daily Mail. Pippa, in my opinion, still seems like she has some growing up to do. She doesn't wuite seem ready for married life. (No knock against her) AND I wouldn't be so quick to say such terrible things about Alex and his family. I also wouldn't be so quick to jump to Pippa's defense. We don't know any of these people or their true feelings. Just because it is written in a newspaper doesn't make it true. Anyone could have been quoted in the article. She and her boyfriend have REPORTEDLY broken up. This could or could not be true. Why not take everything with a grain of salt and not jump on the bandwagon to have Alex Loudon totally degraded. i personally like quieter, more mature, and discreet men. I wouldn't want someone who was constantly in the spotlight. Call him boring or whatever, but just like there is someone who will live Pippa, there is someone who will love Alex loudon and be better suited for him and his lifestyle. More marriage material for him.
  #534  
Old 11-15-2011, 01:20 AM
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Goodness all this seems to have come from a slim fitting dress no plunging neckline no spilt to the waist just a very nice dress with a slim fitting skirt
  #535  
Old 11-15-2011, 01:40 AM
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Goodness all this seems to have come from a slim fitting dress no plunging neckline no spilt to the waist just a very nice dress with a slim fitting skirt
Exactly!!!!!!! LOL
  #536  
Old 11-15-2011, 01:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
I think that what was vulgar about Pippa's dress wasn't the dress or even how she looked in it; what was vulgar was the way the appearance of the young woman's body parts were trumpeted in pictures and through Facebook and so on. Her whole person became reduced to the shape of her bottom, which is ultimately insulting to Pippa. I'm a person who doesn't like cleavage or tight clothes on royal occasions and is rather sensitive to it; and believe me, I wasn't aware of anything improper about Pippa's dress. I thought that she did a very good job of matron of honour.
That's what I think, too. In addition surely at least Camilla has seen the dresses before the service and would have said something if she had minded the matron's dress. On the contrary, I believe it is a decent probability that Pippa's dress was meant to bring something youthful and modern to the otherwise very traditonal wedding. And she looked good with the gaggle of little ones around her.
  #537  
Old 11-15-2011, 03:01 AM
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Originally Posted by CrownPrincessJava View Post
Her chance of marrying well have not diminished due to her bridesmaid dress or even the media's obsession with the younger sister of a future Queen consort. We all know The Daily Mirror is a trash newspaper. Quoting, or even believing what they write is plain ridiculous!
I re-watched the most recent Pride and Prejudice movie this weekend - this sounds so much like a quote from it

What fascinates me is that Catherine, Carole and now Pippa are often in the tabloid cross hairs, whereas Michael has never been and James has only been dinged a time or two. The tabloids don't know anything about the Middletons because they and their friends won't stoop to that level, yet they have created a whole personality, attributing motives and desires to them, etc.. Likewise, I don't believe that Alex or his family would have suggested anything negative about Pippa, I assume they are well versed in appropriate behavior, and commenting negatively about a former flame is not something a gentleman would ever do. I attribute it to writers w/ over active imaginations and papers to sell.
  #538  
Old 11-15-2011, 04:01 AM
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There seems to be a cultural difference in attitudes here. In the US (and some other countries) a person gains respect and deference when they become "millionaires" even to the point to be named "US royalty", I have no objection to this at all, it is the US and the values are different but, even though things are changing there is still a tradition in the UK and it will take a few more generations to change.
As Diarist said these traditions were very well portrayed in Nancy Mitford's book where the epithet "U" and the other "Non-U" were coined.
Being traditional does not mean the people are snobbish or not very pleasant people at all. These attitudes seem to be mainly confined to the nouveaux riches. Nowadays regional accents are well accepted but not long ago they weren't, there is something comforting and familiar about hearing your own particular version. I still shudder (but keep it well hidden I hope) when I hear someone who is an English native speaker say "forehead", "clandestine" and the more commonly heard "says". It is not my fault it is the way I was brought up.
Pippa and her siblings would speak perfectly as they went to schools where the slightest deviation from accepted terms and speech would be frowned on.
I remember at school one particular teacher that was always correcting me for my pronunciation of "just" it was only years later that I found out that she was wrong and my grandmother was right.
Does anyone remember the travel documentaries by Clive James? I particularly remember when he spent a day with a lady belonging to the super rich circle in Dallas when she explained her life to him, her charity work and how the really rich rich lived in Dallas and at a certain point she told him about the difference between old money and the new "oil" money and how the two didn't mix, so there was what I would describe as snobbishness even in some parts of the US.
I too, doubt the Loudons confided their thoughts to newpapers but perhaps someone not as discreet knew their reservations about their son's marriage to Pippa. In commentaries written under articles about her, in the admittedly very low class DM, Pippa is criticized and accused of courting publicity, as were her brother and her family before the royal marriage. The person who marries Pippa will marry someone with money, a sister who God Willing, will be a Queen Consort and will hobnob for sure with royalty, and get an attractive girl to boot. If Alex broke up with her then he was sure to have very good personal reasons.
  #539  
Old 11-15-2011, 09:39 AM
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I don't really see how Pippa is said to be courting the attention; is it just because she keeps smiling and doesn't scowl or swear at the reporters?
Really, as Zonk said, I doubt if she calls them up to let them know she'll be getting coffee.

And many of the so-called news stories are the equivalent of Pippa walks around in public.
Short of becoming a hermit in a cave somewhere, I really don't see what she can do to discourage this sort of thing.
Even if she could, I don't believe she should!
  #540  
Old 11-15-2011, 11:36 AM
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Considering the attention given to Pippa by the paparazzi I think she has been behaving with class and style. She goes about her life with a smile on her face. No hiding behind bags or umbrellas. She is a pretty and sporty young woman who is the sister-in-law with the second in line to the crown. She will find a suitable man to marry (if that is what she wants at this point in her life) who appreciates who she is.

The question whether she comes from a suitable family is probably only an issue for families considering themselves too good for her. I doubt most of those families have easy access to the royal weekend and vacation castles. Pippa will have access to whatever places her cherished sister spends time at.

So a generation or so into the future Pippa will be closer to the throne than most of the families that now may turn up their noses at her.
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