The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #561  
Old 11-16-2011, 12:28 AM
PrincessKaimi's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Hilo, Malibu, United States
Posts: 1,328
Trace all royals back and you'll find farmers - and hunter-gatherers. The amount of "blood" in some of the Plantagenet descendants is greater than in the sitting Royals, but that's not why they're there. Their families are tenacious and managed to get themselves on thrones, often not due to blood but battlefield acumen (War of the Roses, anyone?)

The number of people who have the same number of alleles of "royal blood" as, say, Queen Victoria is quite large, but they don't have the lineage. If what is meant by "breeding," instead is "upbringing," (which is how my grandmother uses the term), then all is well. One does need to have a certain kind of shaping to make a proper Royal, although it need not happen in childhood. We'll see how Kate does, shan't we?
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #562  
Old 11-16-2011, 01:21 AM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: alpine village, Germany
Posts: 1,868
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al_bina View Post
I started dressing like that in 1983 when the film "Flashdance" brought this style in fashion. And like me billions of women have worn this style ever since... So what?
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #563  
Old 11-16-2011, 03:03 AM
expat's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Lisbon, Portugal
Posts: 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
Michael Middleton comes from a distinguished background, and so I think that he gets a pass because of that. It was his inherited money which paid for the children's education, according to articles I have read. Also, I think there's some sexism involved here as well as classism. If James married a highly-born young lady, I don't think that there'd be quite the uproar as there is with Pippa dating upper-class men.
Michael Middleton seems always to be shoved into the background by his wife and daughters and I can't help but imagine he is busy making money so that they can lead the life they lead. As to his disinguished background and money, it was once published how much he had inherited and it wasn't that much and definitely didn't seem to be enough to pay the enormous fees that the colleges he sent his children to demand. He has been described as a pilot, and then if you read through some more down to earth publications(older ones) he was a luggage handler. He bought a coat of arms and his daughter married the heir to the heir, a great accomplishment, and if all goes as planned he will be the grandfather of a King or Queen.
The DM today says that Pippa has spent the weekend with her heir to the Dukedom (whether alone or accompanied by dozens of others is not mentioned), when Pippa and her sister first appeared in social columns they were escribed "from nothing" and now suddenly, as has happened with other people making the social bigtime, they are now mentioned as descendants of royalty (on the father's side, not the mother's of course).
I personally think that Pippa is not anywhere near her sister when it comes to looks and poise but no doubt she will find someone who will be delighted to be able to be invited to some royal occasions and even be invited to shoot some poor defenseless animals in Balmoral.
Reply With Quote
  #564  
Old 11-16-2011, 03:17 AM
greenways's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posts: 270
Perhaps the press chasing after her and taking shots of her doing mundane things, like walking to work is wearing thin . She is not as happy in the photos as earlier and that was before the split with boyfriend.
Reply With Quote
  #565  
Old 11-16-2011, 04:30 AM
Nice Nofret's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Zürich, Switzerland
Posts: 514
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Felicity M View Post
I look at this way... Pippa Middleton, spoilt brat who is only famous cause her big sister married a prince. The media love her becasue of due to the fact that she is the sister of now duchess of Cambridge. I have not once ever seen that girl do a hard days work in her back yard or building something. Mummy and daddy give her all that she wants... Pippa Middleton is a nobody
You haven't seen me (or most of other people, come to that) doing a 'useful' thing all your life. Why? Well, because I do it in my own house &garden & office etc. so who would ever see me, except my coworkers or my family????

I havn't seen YOU ether, doing s.th. useful all your life, you must really be a ... nobody yourself?
Reply With Quote
  #566  
Old 11-16-2011, 04:33 AM
expat's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Lisbon, Portugal
Posts: 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessKaimi View Post
Trace all royals back and you'll find farmers - and hunter-gatherers. The amount of "blood" in some of the Plantagenet descendants is greater than in the sitting Royals, but that's not why they're there. Their families are tenacious and managed to get themselves on thrones, often not due to blood but battlefield acumen (War of the Roses, anyone?)
Perfectly true, I agree, here in Portugal there are hundreds of direct descendants of the Plantagenets and not through illegitimacy either. It is all a matter of being first born which is a kind of lottery.
Reply With Quote
  #567  
Old 11-16-2011, 05:08 AM
HRHHermione's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Boston, United States
Posts: 2,611
Quote:
Originally Posted by expat View Post
Michael Middleton seems always to be shoved into the background by his wife and daughters and I can't help but imagine he is busy making money so that they can lead the life they lead.
Their business was actually started by Carole, not by Michael.

She was the entrepreneur- it started with her making party bags for birthday parties, when he was still employed by one of the airlines. I think it's just that the press enjoys criticizing the women more.
Reply With Quote
  #568  
Old 11-16-2011, 05:27 AM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: alpine village, Germany
Posts: 1,868
Slowly I begin to believe that what the tabloids report (or not report) is selected according to the rules for writing Regency Romances.

Like let's say Mary Balogh or Jo Beverley:

Book one in the Middleton-series.Catherine and the Prince. A story which ends at the altar of Westminster Abbey.

Book two: Philippa and the Duke. A book still to be written. The opening chapter features a sensational dress at the happy ending of book one, which catapults the heroine into the limelight. From now on Philippa (called "Pippa" in the book) who had previously led a quiet life in her sister's shade, is on the run. She looses her gentleman suitor Alex to intrigues which include his evil and condescending family. Her reputation is ruined. She even gets Royal commands to stay more in the background But then her knight in white armour shows up and he is the heir of a dukedom. The duke and duchess come to her rescue and on bringing her out in public again under their wings (which even include those of the Dowager Duchess - always important in such stories: the good ol' fairy) her reputation is restored. For now... Because there will be much further ado and doings till Miss Philippa ends up at the altar.... Wait for next week's installment...

Reply With Quote
  #569  
Old 11-16-2011, 05:30 AM
HRHHermione's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Boston, United States
Posts: 2,611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
Slowly I begin to believe that what the tabloids report (or not report) is selected according to the rules for writing Regency Romances.


That is the best explanation I have heard for it yet! And also, may I just say... I look forward to more installments of Phillipa and the Duke! Even if it's completely contrived and has little to do with reality... it's still very entertaining!
Reply With Quote
  #570  
Old 11-16-2011, 07:25 AM
Lady74's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 122
Maybe if we stop talking about her she might just go away, wishful thinking I know
Reply With Quote
  #571  
Old 11-16-2011, 07:36 AM
Muhler's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Eastern Jutland, Denmark
Posts: 8,769
I must admit I don't understand the snobbery displayed towards the Middletons.

There is a well-known anecdote from around the 1100's about a Saracen who was poked at by another Saracen for his humble background.
He retorted: "I'm the first in my dynasty. You are the last in your dynasty".
Reply With Quote
  #572  
Old 11-16-2011, 07:58 AM
Lady74's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 122
Ok just looked at the photo of her in her leggings!!!! That's done it for me. If your famous for your bottom and you don't want to be famous for your bottom why would dress to draw attention to your bottom. No more poor Pippa for me there's plenty of other fashionable things she could have worn
Reply With Quote
  #573  
Old 11-16-2011, 07:58 AM
expat's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Lisbon, Portugal
Posts: 184
Quote:
Originally Posted by HRHHermione View Post
Their business was actually started by Carole, not by Michael.

She was the entrepreneur- it started with her making party bags for birthday parties, when he was still employed by one of the airlines. I think it's just that the press enjoys criticizing the women more.
I didn't say he started the business I suggested the reason he is not often seen is that he is getting on with the work involved.
Reply With Quote
  #574  
Old 11-16-2011, 08:15 AM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Berkshire, United Kingdom
Posts: 650
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
Michael Middleton comes from a distinguished background, and so I think that he gets a pass because of that. It was his inherited money which paid for the children's education, according to articles I have read. Also, I think there's some sexism involved here as well as classism. If James married a highly-born young lady, I don't think that there'd be quite the uproar as there is with Pippa dating upper-class men.

Perhaps Zonk had better transfer this to the Middleton thread as well / instead, as in order to explain about Pippa, I have had to mention her parents as well.

First, could I start by remarking that, as I have said before, I hate snobbery and class issues, but for want of a better way of putting it, Carole Middleton was born into a working-class background, based on the occupation of her parents and the fact that they lived in council [public] housing. Michael Middleton was born into a middle-class background to the extent that his parents owned their own house [not quite so common back in the 1950's, particularly when the war had made housing in short supply]. Newspapers sometimes erroneously describe Michael Middleton as an airline captain, i.e. a professional occupation: in fact, he was never a pilot and worked in administrative roles including those airside. I do not need to repeat here that through their hard work the Middletons have become wealthy. As to their social position, they are now obviously much more middle class.

The Middleton's source of money has long fascinated journalists: as Mermaid so rightly says, there were articles that stated that inherited wealth [i.e. on Michael's side] paid for Pippa and Catherine's education. Further reserach was then done by the Daily Telegraph, which [because wills and the amount a person leaves when he dies are public knowledge in the UK], they were able to trace back to the alleged 'source' of the wealth, and then discovered that much of it did not actually exist, and that Michael's forebears did not even live in anything other than 'average houses'. And certainly, before Party Pieces took off, the house where Catherine lived before her parents moved to their current home was small and semi-detached. Nothing wrong with this whatsover, I should add, but it certainly is not suggestive of great inherited wealth.

For what it is worth, the word in my circles is that initially, the Middletons had financial help from the schools themselves to help educate Pippa and Catherine. And this is actually not so rare - fees are astronomical and I believe that the figure from most schools is that more than half of their pupils receive some help towards the fees. Catherine originally went to Downe House because she could be a 'day boarder', thereby saving her parents the considerable cost of boarding fees. I have also been told that the person who helped with the cost of the Middleton's schooling before Party Pieces took off was............Uncle Gary. Which is why I could have saved the DM and assorted other tabloids a lot of trouble when they began the pre-wedding 'will Uncle Gary be there?' articles. Believe you me, Uncle Gary could NEVER have been excluded!

Whilst I fully agree that Pippa can't stay at home etc, I do think that her appearances are too public to be regarded as 'just a person enjoying herself'. The sort of social life - non-stop - that she is constantly having is actually very different from that experienced by what, for want of a better word, I will call 'Old Money'. I hope NGalitzine can read and comment on this, but in my view, Pippa's lifestyle is too 'in your face' to be regarded as that of a normal Society girl. And as for tennis matches etc, yes, Pippa is a keen player but I am quite sure that her front row appearances etc are due more than anything else to the 'royal' connection. I did post on another thread that the Royal Family 'test' to make sure that you are not being exploited because of your royal connections is to ask yourself ' would I be going to this if I were not connected to royalty in some way?'. For my own part, whilst the tabloids are obviously building up Pippa, I have to say that I think that she is 'working' / 'milking' her royal connections to at least some degree!

And it is possible to 'take more of a back seat role' and I am sure Pippa could do this if she wanted to: It's is bit like how Carole Middleton always seems to take centre-stage, whereas Michael is able to keep more in the background himself. Take Royal Ascot; both Middletons were in the carriage procession: Carole was exceedingly animated and waving at everyone - believe me, I was there. [and i have to say, Carole had my sympathy, because if I had just married my daughter into the BRF I would be waving a lot as well!!] You just could not FAIL to notice Carole, she was 'everywhere'. Carole was also very heavily false-tanned and 'stood out a mile' for this reason alone. Meanwhile, Michael Middleton sat there quietly dignified and people barely noticed him, since all the attention was being focused on his star of a wife. Quick footnote: I have NEVER heard Carole Middleton called 'Doors to Manual' as the papers claim. What people do call her is 'PMM'. I gather that this unkindly stands for 'Pushy Mummy Middleton'. I believe that this attitude towards Carole is what has swung over to how Pippa Middleton is viewed. I have never heard an unkind word being spoken about Michael Middleton.

Just my thoughts, and not meant to offend.

Alex
Reply With Quote
  #575  
Old 11-16-2011, 09:12 AM
Daisiesforever's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 618
Pippa Middleton... who was she before William and Kate got married? Has she achieved anything of notable importance since then? I am still not certain what all the fuss is about.
Reply With Quote
  #576  
Old 11-16-2011, 02:16 PM
Osipi's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 6,629
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
I started dressing like that in 1983 when the film "Flashdance" brought this style in fashion. And like me billions of women have worn this style ever since... So what?
I agree. I have several pair of leggings that I just love wearing normally with a tunic or kurta and boots. Its a style that is really comfortable for me.

I think, as I have for a long while, that since the wedding of Will and Kate, the tabloids and press have latched on to Pippa for the sole reason being that Pippa is about as close to Kate as they're going to get for a cash cow. They know William's feelings about the press and if William stresses that he won't stand for the harassment his mother faced, they're going to back down and look elsewhere.

I don't think that Pippa's done anything to court all this attention and I don't think I've ever seen where she's talked to the press either. This situation kind of reminds me of how back then, the PR folks dreamt this popular rock band for a TV series. The public bought into it and the Monkees were quite popular for a long time.
Reply With Quote
  #577  
Old 11-16-2011, 03:12 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,272
Well Alex, I think there are a few things to consider.
-of course people did not notice the Middletons before Catherine and William became a couple and ended up at the Abbey. There was no reason to. They were successful entrepeneurs living in Berkshire. Probably few people outside of their village had any idea about them. The same could be said about almost any family in the kingdom.
-the Middletons now receive attention from the media. Again, perfectly natural. They are a good looking family with an interesting story that highlights social movement and success in the UK. A sign of progress in my books. Also their daughter will one day be Queen so media attention in the 21st century is to be expected.
-Pippa is a party planner as I understand it, so it seems natural that she has an active social life. She is also beautiful and outgoing (probably more so than her older sister), and looked pretty great in her bridesmaid dress. On the wedding day she became a star not just in the UK but abroad as well. People talked about her dress and her body. Not much she could do about that....It all started before she even left the Abbey.
-Not sure if she invites ongoing attention or not, but she seems to accept that it has become a part of her life and gets on with her life regardless. If she gets an upgrade at a tennis match, well who could blame her for accepting. I am not adverse to getting a better table at a restaurant or having my seat upgraded on an aoirline when it is offered to me.
-Does she capitalize on her royal connection for commercial purposes? I don't know but she wouldn't be the first and won't be the last. Lady Elizabeth Anson does not shy away from talking about her connections to publicize Party Planners and the royals don't seem to mind as she plans many of their events....and talks about it later. Would Margaret Rhodes recent book even have been published if her aunt was not the Queen Mother and her cousin the monarch? A lot of people could write a charming book about country life and caring for an elderly aunt but would be unlikely to have found a publisher.
-Pippa may be out and about at a lot of events that the traditional aristocracy might not have attended but times have moved on and a lot of traditional events have fallen by the wayside. Anyway, she is young and attending young peoples events and the people she is seen with don't exactly come from the gutters.
-As for Michael not getting attention while Carole and Pippa do, well I think thats just the way the press work. Men always fade into the background. What can you say about us, nice suit? With women the press can comment on their clothes and makeup etc and if the reporter is a woman even get a bit cattier in their comments. Overall I think Mrs Middleton has handled the attention quite well. She could have sat in the carriage like a lump on a log and some people would still have found a reason to comment.
-traditionally if one wanted to avoid publicity, or let unwanted publicity die down one would withdraw for a seaon or 2 to a family estate in the country or perhaps an extended trip abroad. While you have withdrawn from public life usually another person captures the publics attention and then you can return to London. In todays world, where everyone has to work (including the aristocracy) I think it is unreasonable to expect Pippa Middleton to withdraw to the country.
-Overall I would say that the Middleton family have handled the attention on their family quite well. They are not running around giving interviews to the tabs or appearing on tv chat shows. They just get on with their careers and let people say what they want. As the Iron Duke said "publish and be damned". They may be privately hurt by the gossip but they don't let on in public or lash out at the press. If Pippa and Lord Percy were ever to head to the altar I can only imagine the outrage the DM could generate. Imagine Carole Middleton, mother to 2 Duchesses, how dare she!!!


JMO,
Nicholas
Reply With Quote
  #578  
Old 11-16-2011, 03:22 PM
Daria_S's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: My own head, United States
Posts: 8,109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
Slowly I begin to believe that what the tabloids report (or not report) is selected according to the rules for writing Regency Romances.

Like let's say Mary Balogh or Jo Beverley:

Book one in the Middleton-series.Catherine and the Prince. A story which ends at the altar of Westminster Abbey.

Book two: Philippa and the Duke. A book still to be written. The opening chapter features a sensational dress at the happy ending of book one, which catapults the heroine into the limelight. From now on Philippa (called "Pippa" in the book) who had previously led a quiet life in her sister's shade, is on the run. She looses her gentleman suitor Alex to intrigues which include his evil and condescending family. Her reputation is ruined. She even gets Royal commands to stay more in the background But then her knight in white armour shows up and he is the heir of a dukedom. The duke and duchess come to her rescue and on bringing her out in public again under their wings (which even include those of the Dowager Duchess - always important in such stories: the good ol' fairy) her reputation is restored. For now... Because there will be much further ado and doings till Miss Philippa ends up at the altar.... Wait for next week's installment...

This made me laugh out loud . Nicely put.
__________________
"My guiding principles in life are to be honest, genuine, thoughtful and caring".
~Prince William~


I'm not obsessed with royalty...I just think intensely about it.
Reply With Quote
  #579  
Old 11-16-2011, 05:32 PM
Lady74's Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi

I agree. I have several pair of leggings that I just love wearing normally with a tunic or kurta and boots. Its a style that is really comfortable for me.

I think, as I have for a long while, that since the wedding of Will and Kate, the tabloids and press have latched on to Pippa for the sole reason being that Pippa is about as close to Kate as they're going to get for a cash cow. They know William's feelings about the press and if William stresses that he won't stand for the harassment his mother faced, they're going to back down and look elsewhere.

I don't think that Pippa's done anything to court all this attention and I don't think I've ever seen where she's talked to the press either. This situation kind of reminds me of how back then, the PR folks dreamt this popular rock band for a TV series. The public bought into it and the Monkees were quite popular for a long time.
I don't know you but I'll take a guess your bottom hasn't been in every paper and on tv and voted rear of the year. So I think a longer top would have been a better idea IF she really doesn't want all the attention
Reply With Quote
  #580  
Old 11-16-2011, 05:57 PM
Zonk's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere in, United States
Posts: 11,328
There was so much commotion about these leggings I had to check it out to see what the big fuss was about.

And guess what....much ado about nothing.

Honestly, you see women in pants like this quite often in the States during the fall and winter time, and I would imagine the same holds true for Europe.

As for the inference that Pippa is seeking attention by wearing such pants, I am afraid that Pippa once again, should have just stayed indoors so that she wouldn't have bothered people 1) by exercising her rights/belief/ or whatever you want to call it to go outside like any other normal human being who isn't in jail or is bedridden and 2) she should have clearly taken a poll beforehand so the masses could have told her what was appropriate for a private citizen to wear. I mean, how dare she wear leggings when her bum has been commented on. Someone once told me I had nice legs, so guess what, that's the feature I always play up. Whats wrong with that? Itsnot like she is wearing Daisy Dukes!

I mean seriously, she isn't offending anyone by showing a lot of skin, she isn't wearing anything that is too tight or too loose. She isn't out doing drugs or kicking kittens in the streets. She certainly isn't living on the taxpayer dime.

Frankly, I think Pippa (as a private citizen) should do whatever makes her happy (and as a contributing member of society) as it appears that people will dislike her for no apparent reason.

And for the record, I am not a particular fan of Pippa. Frankly, I think her dress style leaves much to be desired and I don't think she is that pretty. Average is what I would say. But it does goad my gander when people nitpick on people (that they don't know) for little reasons.

Just come out and say you don't like her and stop finding reasons to justify all the little petty remarks. I said it once to a coworker about Angelina Jolie and she was shocked. I was like I just don't care for her. She hasn't done anything personal to me, I don't know her, I respect what she does for charities around the world but I just don't care for her. And that was that. We didn't spend time trying to justify my dislike or her like. It is what it is.

Trust me...you will feel better.

Oh and Nicholas...excellent post!
__________________

__________________
.

Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
duke and duchess of cambridge, kate middleton, new york, pippa middleton


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Duchess of Cambridge: Family, Wealth and Background sara1981 The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge and Family 2602 Yesterday 10:14 PM
Catherine Middleton Jewellery (to April 2011) HRHAmy Royal Jewels 151 04-29-2011 08:39 AM
Prince William and Catherine Middleton Current Events 8: November 2009-April 29, 2011 Zonk Current Events Archive 1144 04-28-2011 08:00 PM
Catherine Middleton Current Events 1: November 2010-April 29, 2011 Warren Current Events Archive 451 04-28-2011 08:00 PM




Popular Tags
ascot 2016 beatrice borromeo best gown best gown september 2016 best hat best outfit best outfit 2016 catherine middleton style coup d'etat crown prince haakon crown princess mary crown princess mary fashion crown princess mette-marit current events dom duarte duchess of cambridge e-mail fashion poll felipe vi grand duchess josephine-charlotte grand duke jean greece kate middleton king abdullah ii king felipe king felipe vi king willem-alexander member introduction monarchy new zealand nobel gala norway november 2016 october 2016 opening of parliament picture of the week prince bernhard prince charles princess charlene fashion princess madeleine princess marie princess mary princess mary daytime fashion princess mary fashion princess mary hats queen letizia queen letizia casual outfits queen letizia daytime fashion queen letizia fashion queen letizia style queen mathilde queen mathildes outfits queen maxima queen maxima casual wear queen maxima daytime fashion queen maxima fashion queen maxima hats queen maxima style queen rania royal fashion september 2016 state visit state visit to denmark succession sweden the duchess of cambridge the duchess of cambridge casual wear the duchess of cambridge daytime fashion the duchess of cambridge fashion the duchess of cambridge hats


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:42 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2016
Jelsoft Enterprises