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  #501  
Old 11-13-2011, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by HRHHermione View Post

And some of the "commoner" royals have been fantastic at this- look at how much Crown Princess Mary helps the image of the Danish Royals, and how great Prince Daniel has been in Sweden.
Additionally Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother, Princess Grace of Monaco, Queen Silvia of Sweden, Queen Sonja of Norway......they all seem to have done pretty good jobs as consorts to reigning monarchs without having the advantage of being born a princess.
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  #502  
Old 11-14-2011, 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Princess of Durham

I always think that term is hilarious. Pardon me, but the only people who still use it are massive snobs and the very very elderly. IMHO, breeding has to do with horses, dogs, cats etc., it really has no place with reference to human beings. Of course I'm guessing that people who use the term consider themselves to have the proper kind of "breeding" in order to make such judgements.

ETA, certainly there is social mobility in the US but ANYONE who says there is not snobbery and classism just isn't hooked into reality. The schools you go to, where you live, where you go to university even to a certain extent what religious denomination you belong to says a lot. Just going to the "right" schools (private in this country) can pave the way for success all the way, assuming one is reasonably intelligent. BUT even that being the case, if "one" doesn't live in the proper area of a city or town it can have major repercussions despite the proper schools. Snobbery is EVERYWHERE!!!!
Yes, but social mobility in the UK is much more difficult.. I always bring up the fact that at my boarding school in the US there were kids who had British parents in the entertainment industry who chose to send their kids to US schools bc it would have been very difficult for them socially in UK schools.

The Middleton's have achieved great success on their own through their business but at the same time I don't think it's a stretch or blasphemy to call them social climbers. They are ambitious to be accepted socially ( on various terms - wearing the right clothes, marrying into the right families etc) and that's not
necessarily a venomous thing to say. It's just realistic. It makes sense why an old money family would be wary of that too- there's nothing worse than feeling like someone is riding coattails- Especially if it is at the expense of a family that has attempted to be discreet.
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  #503  
Old 11-14-2011, 02:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Al_bina View Post
The Middletons should consider moving to the USA.
Why should they leave their homecountry? Makes no sense to me.

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Perhaps they prefer something more discreet and have got different standards regarding people, who wish to join their family. Additionally Alex knows Ms. Middleton better than any of us.
As for the Loudons: what could be read in tabloids about their opinion is hardly discreet. They or their confidants should have kept quiet and not blabbed to the media. As for Mr. Loudon knowing Miss Middleton better than we do: you're right. But that doesn't necessarily mean that "us" have to share his reasoning.
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  #504  
Old 11-14-2011, 02:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
As for the Loudons: what could be read in tabloids about their opinion is hardly discreet.
If they even did! This story could have been made up completely. There have been a lot of non-stories about Pippa and Kate- they sell papers.
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  #505  
Old 11-14-2011, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by HRHHermione View Post
If they even did! This story could have been made up completely. There have been a lot of non-stories about Pippa and Kate- they sell papers.
Not so sure about that. The Loudons could complain about this and obviously the Mail editors believe they won't do that. Yes, they do invent stories all the time but normally you can trace these by checking if anyone could (or would) complain about them writing lies. They know what they can fabricate about the Royals but I doubt they'd dare to put such opinions in the mouth of the Loudons if they didn't believe there is some truth in it. Eg they never reported something like that about the Middletons and their opinion on things.
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  #506  
Old 11-14-2011, 07:17 AM
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The Loudons , contrary to some opinions on this thread, have shown class, there are not many families that would show stick to their principles and show relief at their son breaking off from the sister of a future Queen, in other words they will not be bought, and it is true anyone can have an opinion when it comes to Pippa. The Loudons, if the story is true, have their opinion because they know her and not because they like the photographs of the backview of a girl at a wedding.
The royal family can make friends, allow marriages,etc without ever losing the tiniest piece of class, other families not being royal can't afford to do the same.
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  #507  
Old 11-14-2011, 08:46 AM
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Okay...so am I the only person NOT believing this story from the Daily Mail.

You know the Daily Mail that erroneously reported that Catherine had met the Queen MANY times before she actually did at Peter and Autumn's wedding, that reported that Carole had behaved in rather poor form when she used some incorrect words when meting the Queen at William's Sandhurst graduation when she only met her a couple of days before the actual wedding; that the Middleton's used unfair advantage and profited from the royal wedding because they were selling Brittania souvenirs (like everyone else but no pics of William and Kate); etc.

Who said really horrible things about Kate and the Middleton's when William and Kate broke up and attributed them to William, unknown Palace courtiers and/or William's friends. So much so that William is reported to have phoned Kate (and/or the Middleton's) to apologize before they got back together for good.

I am sure there are more than enough inaccuracies to go around.

But that Daily Mail?

I just want to be sure.
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  #508  
Old 11-14-2011, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by AmericanQueen View Post
Yes, but social mobility in the UK is much more difficult.. I always bring up the fact that at my boarding school in the US there were kids who had British parents in the entertainment industry who chose to send their kids to US schools bc it would have been very difficult for them socially in UK schools.
Well if that is the situation in the UK. Then I find THAT far, far, worse than the fact that the Middletons succeeded, where others did not. Seems like misplaced criticism and simple jealousy to me that people would condemn the M-family for it.

Criticise the system instead! This is not the 19th century. It is the 21st. We are all equal and have the same rights to education etc. as people with 'old money'. Different levels of education give different types of people with different interests. But Lord X or Y isn't necessarily any smarter or proper than the local grocer. They both have to handle money to continue living as they do and they both have to have common decency when handling people.
We are all taught to use our brains and abilities. So why, if the M's managed to use those traits to their advantage, it is called social climbing? It is like first encouraging a todler to try and stand and then criticise it for doing so.
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  #509  
Old 11-14-2011, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Zonk View Post

Who said really horrible things about Kate and the Middleton's when William and Kate broke up and attributed them to William, unknown Palace courtiers and/or William's friends. So much so that William is reported to have phoned Kate (and/or the Middleton's) to apologize before they got back together for good.

I am sure there are more than enough inaccuracies to go around.
My point was that the Mail could be reasonably sure that neither the Middletons nor the RF would complain about these articles because they have known for some time that this is not the style of both families.

But what about the Loudons? If they are really that discreet people, surely there must have been concern over their reaction if it was a blatant lie? That makes me think there could be a bit of truth in it, that words to that effect that Pippa is no marriage prospect have been said.

But you're point is as good as mine - you never know with the tabloids...
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  #510  
Old 11-14-2011, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by expat View Post
The Loudons , contrary to some opinions on this thread, have shown class, there are not many families that would show stick to their principles and show relief at their son breaking off from the sister of a future Queen, in other words they will not be bought, and it is true anyone can have an opinion when it comes to Pippa. The Loudons, if the story is true, have their opinion because they know her and not because they like the photographs of the backview of a girl at a wedding.
The royal family can make friends, allow marriages,etc without ever losing the tiniest piece of class, other families not being royal can't afford to do the same.
I fully agree with you.
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  #511  
Old 11-14-2011, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by expat View Post
The Loudons , contrary to some opinions on this thread, have shown class
I don't think there's anything classy about thinking that your "breeding" makes you a superior person, and I think anyone that looks down their noses at a nice, smart, kind person because of who their great-grandparents are is someone with no class at all.

Many people have said it very well- commoners aren't always common and nobles certainly aren't always noble. I think the article makes the Loudons look incredibly crass, and like very shallow, silly people. Which is why I agree with Zonk- I think the entire article was made up by the Daily Mail so they can continue to sneer at the Middletons. I can't imagine anyone giving them that information.

My guess is that they had a source who was willing to say something along the lines of "The relationship wasn't forever, it had run it's course, they were never serious about marriage, etc"- something along those lines. And the Mail twisted it to tell the same story they always tell about the Middletons.

I wonder when they'll get tired of it? The whole family has behaved impeccably through many years of a royal relationship and through the engagement and wedding.
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  #512  
Old 11-14-2011, 03:57 PM
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You are welcome, and have every right, to your opinion, I just happen to disagree, the Middletons have not got the reputation in the UK for being social climbers for nothing. I think the fact that Pippa was photographed and went away with her ex boyfriend, the heir to a Dukedom, right after her sister's wedding, was a bit much for Alex Loudon to accept.
Had you heard about the Middletons before? I think everyone has, and have heard about them for about 8 years. What about the Loudons, have you ever heard of them? No? Then who is discreet?
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  #513  
Old 11-14-2011, 04:11 PM
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This is class?

Quote:
Originally Posted by expat View Post
The Loudons , contrary to some opinions on this thread, have shown class, there are not many families that would show stick to their principles and show relief at their son breaking off from the sister of a future Queen, in other words they will not be bought, and it is true anyone can have an opinion when it comes to Pippa. The Loudons, if the story is true, have their opinion because they know her and not because they like the photographs of the backview of a girl at a wedding.
The royal family can make friends, allow marriages,etc without ever losing the tiniest piece of class, other families not being royal can't afford to do the same.
Like most women I didn't marry the first (or even the 10th) guy I dated. Some of the 'in-laws' I liked, some I didn't. Some of them liked me and considered me worthy of their precious son, some didn't!

I was somewhat well-known during these years, and local gossip articles would occasionally mention my name. But not a single one of those families, not the local aristocracy nor the working class ones, would ever have called up the gossip rag and said, "oh, we're so thankful he didn't marry her, she's not wife material, and we just want to let everyone know we are too classy to accept her into our family."

IMO, anyone who would go to the DM or the Times or Hello and criticize their son's former girlfriend are the very opposite of classy. I don't doubt that they may or may not have thought her to be the right woman for him. But if they let this be known to the general world, well, that's just tacky. I'm willing to assume that the DM put this story together with snips and snails and puppy dog tails. I can't believe that the Loudons would do that, assuming that they are actually as well-bred as it would appear.

I'll bet the Middletons might think Pippa could do better, as well. Bet we don't see that story reported!
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  #514  
Old 11-14-2011, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by expat View Post
Had you heard about the Middletons before? I think everyone has, and have heard about them for about 8 years. What about the Loudons, have you ever heard of them? No? Then who is discreet?
Of course I'd heard about the Middletons. Their daughter was marrying the future King of England. They were reported on in the press constantly because of that, but that is not because they weren't being discreet. They've never given interviews or spoken to the press, and they've quietly ignored all of the gossip and insinuations made about their family- and they've been doing it for a very long time now, since Kate was still at university.

I've never heard about the Loudons because the press has no reason at all to report on them.
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  #515  
Old 11-14-2011, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by expat View Post
Had you heard about the Middletons before? I think everyone has, and have heard about them for about 8 years. What about the Loudons, have you ever heard of them? No? Then who is discreet?
I'm sorry but where is the logic to this statement?
Everyone has heard of the middletons, due to Catherine being in a relationship with the future King for the best part of 10 years. Is there a reason we would have heard of the loudons for them to be discreet about? We haven't heard about them because there is no reason for us to have.
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  #516  
Old 11-14-2011, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
I'm sorry but where is the logic to this statement?
Everyone has heard of the middletons, due to Catherine being in a relationship with the future King for the best part of 10 years. Is there a reason we would have heard of the loudons for them to be discreet about? We haven't heard about them because there is no reason for us to have.

Yes, they are the Loudons, not the Loud'uns.
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  #517  
Old 11-14-2011, 05:09 PM
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Yes, they are the Loudons, not the Loud'uns.
I'm confused?
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  #518  
Old 11-14-2011, 05:43 PM
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I have just read the link to the Daily Mail article.

The first thing I have noted is that there are no direct quotations directly attributable to the Loudons. Or anyone else, come to that!


Parts of what the article says do ring true in places though: so please can I give a little background information?


First, it seems that the 'Class System' is once again rearing its ugly head! Before I go any further, I would like to qualify my remarks by saying that so far as I am personally concerned, my family brought be up to treat everyone with respect regardless of their 'social background'; indeed, my mother once told me that there are only TWO classes of people: nice people and nasty people'. And, equally importantly, I was taught that I would never go far wrong if I treated everyone how I liked to be treated myself.

That aside, the traditional English class system used to recognise 3 'levels' of class; working class, middle class and of course upper class. It has, however, always been slightly difficult to define 'who fits where' and this is becoming more difficult: one reason of course is 'education and money'. The Middle Class is also often split into 'lower middle class' and 'upper middle class'. Trade used to be looked-down upon, however rich it might have made someone. Money acquired through professional endeavours was regarded as much better.

For want of a better word, 'traditional' working class people were once generally poorly educated and poorly paid: fast forward to the 21st century and more and more people are going to university and so far as money is concerned, many traditionally 'working class' occupations are better paid than some traditional 'middle class' professions. Class in the 21st Century seems somewhat fluid!

Nancy Mitford of course used language as a 'class indicator': hands up anyone here whe has read her essay on 'U and non-U' languge use. ['U' standing for 'upper class]. For example, don't forget how poor old Carol Middleton was lambasted for alledgedly saying 'Pardon', 'Pleased to meet you' and 'Toilet'. [although of course, it later transpired that Mrs Middleton had NEVER said these things...]

Apart from wealth, education and language use, one other 'Class Indicator' is in fact publicity. To the traditional Upper Class, any appearance in newspapers was thought to be the ultimate in vulgarity apart from on 3 occasions: Birth, Marriage and Death, when it was entirely allowable to allow these events [sometimes abbreviated to 'hatch, match and dispatch'] to be announced publically in the broadsheet press. Otherwise: forget it! Photos and articles in the papers of the Boodles Boxing Ball, Front Row at the Tennis, the Launch of Basil's Bar at the Goring Hotel: All totally and unacceptable vulgar to the traditional upper class.

It may therefore be that Alex's parents would regard Pippa's frequent appearances in the papers as vulgar. [apart from 'hatch, match and dispatch above, there was one slight exception to this: I am not sure if anyone here has ever heard of Mrs Betty Kenward; she deserves a little write-up of her own on a suitable thread one day! This lady became regarded as a 'Chronicler of Society' and for 50 years wrote a 'Society Column' in one of the English glossy magazines. She was a confidante of the Royal Family: indeed, one of the reasons for the cessation of Court Presentations was the information about the various abuses of this practice that Mrs Kenward disclosed to the Courtiers. To be mentioned in one of Mrs Kenward's columns (she wrote about Society and Royal Events) was regarded as acceptable social publicity - an exception to the 'hatch, match etc' rule.]

Thus, regardless of whether or not all these 'helpful' 'friends' did actually speak to the Daily Mail, my humble opinion is that the remarks attributed to them about the Loudons objecting to 'Pippa's Publicity' do not seem totally wide of the mark to me!!


For what it is worth, and I do not want to stray too far off topic, I do know quite a lot of people who I would describe as being from a traditional upper class background who were quite genuinely horrified at Pippa Middleton's dress at the Royal Wedding. They felt that it was both vulgar in the extreme in the way that it had hugged her figure and also vulgar in that it focused attention away from the bride at the wedding. Although this is really a mattter for another thread, it is also fair to say that many of the 'old guard' disapprove of the Middleton family; there is a certain absurdity in this bearing in mind that Catherine is married to the heir to the throne and the Middletons and most recently Pippa have been guests at Windsor and Balmoral etc. Possibly it says as much about the people who actually made the remarks than about the Middletons themselves, but in my report on Royal Ascot earlier in the year, I mentioned how a good few people in the Royal Enclosure made adverse comments about Carole Middleton's alleged social faux pas - her fake tan, her over-enthusiastic waving from the carriage etc, the unladylike glimpse of her (ill-cut) panties etc etc. As I said, the various unkind remarks directed at the Middletons are both inappropriate and uncalled-for, but the Middleton family does have its detractors and although I have no idea what the Loudons really think, I don't find it beyond the realms of possibility that they would have qualms about Pippa. Although I do not really think that they would stoop low enough to mention this to the DM!

Just my thoughts and not meant to offend,

Alex
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  #519  
Old 11-14-2011, 05:58 PM
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I think that what was vulgar about Pippa's dress wasn't the dress or even how she looked in it; what was vulgar was the way the appearance of the young woman's body parts were trumpeted in pictures and through Facebook and so on. Her whole person became reduced to the shape of her bottom, which is ultimately insulting to Pippa. I'm a person who doesn't like cleavage or tight clothes on royal occasions and is rather sensitive to it; and believe me, I wasn't aware of anything improper about Pippa's dress. I thought that she did a very good job of matron of honour.
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  #520  
Old 11-14-2011, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Diarist View Post
I have just read the link to the Daily Mail article.

The first thing I have noted is that there are no direct quotations directly attributable to the Loudons. Or anyone else, come to that!


Parts of what the article says do ring true in places though: so please can I give a little background information?


First, it seems that the 'Class System' is once again rearing its ugly head! Before I go any further, I would like to qualify my remarks by saying that so far as I am personally concerned, my family brought be up to treat everyone with respect regardless of their 'social background'; indeed, my mother once told me that there are only TWO classes of people: nice people and nasty people'. And, equally importantly, I was taught that I would never go far wrong if I treated everyone how I liked to be treated myself.

That aside, the traditional English class system used to recognise 3 'levels' of class; working class, middle class and of course upper class. It has, however, always been slightly difficult to define 'who fits where' and this is becoming more difficult: one reason of course is 'education and money'. The Middle Class is also often split into 'lower middle class' and 'upper middle class'. Trade used to be looked-down upon, however rich it might have made someone. Money acquired through professional endeavours was regarded as much better.

For want of a better word, 'traditional' working class people were once generally poorly educated and poorly paid: fast forward to the 21st century and more and more people are going to university and so far as money is concerned, many traditionally 'working class' occupations are better paid than some traditional 'middle class' professions. Class in the 21st Century seems somewhat fluid!

Nancy Mitford of course used language as a 'class indicator': hands up anyone here whe has read her essay on 'U and non-U' languge use. ['U' standing for 'upper class]. For example, don't forget how poor old Carol Middleton was lambasted for alledgedly saying 'Pardon', 'Pleased to meet you' and 'Toilet'. [although of course, it later transpired that Mrs Middleton had NEVER said these things...]

Apart from wealth, education and language use, one other 'Class Indicator' is in fact publicity. To the traditional Upper Class, any appearance in newspapers was thought to be the ultimate in vulgarity apart from on 3 occasions: Birth, Marriage and Death, when it was entirely allowable to allow these events [sometimes abbreviated to 'hatch, match and dispatch'] to be announced publically in the broadsheet press. Otherwise: forget it! Photos and articles in the papers of the Boodles Boxing Ball, Front Row at the Tennis, the Launch of Basil's Bar at the Goring Hotel: All totally and unacceptable vulgar to the traditional upper class.

It may therefore be that Alex's parents would regard Pippa's frequent appearances in the papers as vulgar. [apart from 'hatch, match and dispatch above, there was one slight exception to this: I am not sure if anyone here has ever heard of Mrs Betty Kenward; she deserves a little write-up of her own on a suitable thread one day! This lady became regarded as a 'Chronicler of Society' and for 50 years wrote a 'Society Column' in one of the English glossy magazines. She was a confidante of the Royal Family: indeed, one of the reasons for the cessation of Court Presentations was the information about the various abuses of this practice that Mrs Kenward disclosed to the Courtiers. To be mentioned in one of Mrs Kenward's columns (she wrote about Society and Royal Events) was regarded as acceptable social publicity - an exception to the 'hatch, match etc' rule.]

Thus, regardless of whether or not all these 'helpful' 'friends' did actually speak to the Daily Mail, my humble opinion is that the remarks attributed to them about the Loudons objecting to 'Pippa's Publicity' do not seem totally wide of the mark to me!!


For what it is worth, and I do not want to stray too far off topic, I do know quite a lot of people who I would describe as being from a traditional upper class background who were quite genuinely horrified at Pippa Middleton's dress at the Royal Wedding. They felt that it was both vulgar in the extreme in the way that it had hugged her figure and also vulgar in that it focused attention away from the bride at the wedding. Although this is really a mattter for another thread, it is also fair to say that many of the 'old guard' disapprove of the Middleton family; there is a certain absurdity in this bearing in mind that Catherine is married to the heir to the throne and the Middletons and most recently Pippa have been guests at Windsor and Balmoral etc. Possibly it says as much about the people who actually made the remarks than about the Middletons themselves, but in my report on Royal Ascot earlier in the year, I mentioned how a good few people in the Royal Enclosure made adverse comments about Carole Middleton's alleged social faux pas - her fake tan, her over-enthusiastic waving from the carriage etc, the unladylike glimpse of her (ill-cut) panties etc etc. As I said, the various unkind remarks directed at the Middletons are both inappropriate and uncalled-for, but the Middleton family does have its detractors and although I have no idea what the Loudons really think, I don't find it beyond the realms of possibility that they would have qualms about Pippa. Although I do not really think that they would stoop low enough to mention this to the DM!

Just my thoughts and not meant to offend,

Alex
While I agree with you in general Alex about how some families regard themselves, I do feel that to a certain extent a lot of them are living as if it was still pre 1939. I knew a lot of boys who were from aristocratic or solid county families at school and later at uni who honestly still talked as if it was the days of the Raj. I also knew that many of their families were struggling to pay for the school fees and would not honestly object if their sons managed to marry a girl who could bring enough cash into the family so that they could repair a roof on the family pile or save them from having to sell off a piece of the family heritage. I wonder if these same families would look down on the Bedfords or the Devonshires for opening up their homes and doing the necessary publicity to attract the visitors that pay for the upkeep at Woburn and Chatsworth. I certainly think they wouldn't object to a Russell or a Cavendish marrying into their family because the dukes and duchesses occassionally appear in the press.
The class system certainly still exists in England but sometimes I think it is those that are new to being" U" that are more rigid than those that have been "U" for centuries. Certainly they DM can be terribly snobbish when they write about people.
That being said I certainly remember by grandparents, parents talking about appearing in the papers only when you are born, marry and die.....but when I asked my grandmother about a picture of her arriving at an event in London she just laughed and said you can't always control what other people write about you....and that it was a rather good picture after all.

Nicholas
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