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  #161  
Old 05-31-2011, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by monica17 View Post
I'd rather wait for concrete proof of such things rather than getting into mere guesses/inferences/opinions at this point. Like I said, I'd be the first to cheer her on if that was the case.
What prove do you want, do you want to see her paycheck, her tax records?
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  #162  
Old 05-31-2011, 05:56 PM
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As to the dowry, I would doubt it. After all Grace Kelly and Prince Ranier married approximately 55 years ago. Even then dowries in the US were almost unheard of. I have never heard of Diana Spencer's family providing a dowry, nor Sarah Ferguson so there would be no reason for Catherine Middleton's family to provide a dowry.

ETA, I suspect that for some people, there will never be anything that the Duchess of Cambridge can do to prove her "worth".
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  #163  
Old 05-31-2011, 11:39 PM
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What prove do you want, do you want to see her paycheck, her tax records?
Something official from the palace issued biography (which can be found at their website) would do.

As for the dowry question, it is still practiced at certain circles in Europe. It's a fair enough question, did she have one or not? If it's no longer practiced by the BRF, then so be it. No more additional questions. Thank you for your opinions on this matter anyway.
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  #164  
Old 05-31-2011, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by monica17 View Post
Something official from the palace issued biography (which can be found at their website) would do.

As for the dowry question, it is still practiced at certain circles in Europe. It's a fair enough question, did she have one or not? If it's no longer practiced by the BRF, then so be it. No more additional questions. Thank you for your opinions on this matter anyway.
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  #165  
Old 05-31-2011, 11:56 PM
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Thank you. I've read that the other day. It covers her gap year, work at Jigsaw and the family business. If there are indeed more things that she has done, hopefully, they will include such in the future.
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  #166  
Old 06-01-2011, 02:14 AM
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What circles is a dowry still practiced in? I know the British royal family isn't the most progressive thing in the world, but I'm 100% certain they don't participate in that sexist, backwards, demeaning and insulting practice. The idea is laughable.

Can't you just see William sitting around haggling over how many goats Kate is worth?
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  #167  
Old 06-01-2011, 05:00 AM
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What circles is a dowry still practiced in? I know the British royal family isn't the most progressive thing in the world, but I'm 100% certain they don't participate in that sexist, backwards, demeaning and insulting practice. The idea is laughable.

Can't you just see William sitting around haggling over how many goats Kate is worth?
There seems to be a consensus that the BRF do not practice the dowry system anymore. But they certainly did in the previous generations, most likely until 2-3 generations ago.

However, some royal/noble families in the Continent still do. I (personally) know some high nobility (Almanach de Gotha ones) families who do.

The dowry system also aimed to protect the bride as well.

For example, many royal brides (or their families in case the princess predeceased her husband) got back their dowries upon widowhood. This is to ensure that the princess has certain means to ensure a lifestyle suitable to their station (because they were not usually expected to inherit any of the family wealth, especially in Germany where the Salic law prevailed), even if (for some reason) the family they married into couldn't/wouldn't support them appropriately (upon widowhood). Of course, their marriage contract could have a provision for allowance upon widowhood but certainly getting back their dowry is a big help in case this wasn't followed. I'm not sure of the details in divorce cases, though.
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  #168  
Old 06-01-2011, 07:53 AM
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The "dowry" system falls on its feet when considering the fate of Sarah Ferguson and the like.
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  #169  
Old 06-01-2011, 08:44 AM
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And all too frequently the dowry was spent due to debts incurred in the grooms family or just to keep the family properties going. Yes, dowries may have been around two or three generations ago but clearly they no longer are. It also seems the continental royals continue many old practices. Apparently some of the non-reigning royals families still insist upon intermarriage with other royal families, interestingly not so in the case in the reigning familes. I am guessing it's important for these groups to continue to hold onto old practices which the reigning families no longer need.
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  #170  
Old 06-01-2011, 10:05 AM
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Whether or not a dowry was paid, is not something that the British Royal Family would comment on as that would raise a whole host of other questions and/or concerns that they probably don't want to deal with.

So its time to move on from any speculation on dowries.

Any and all additional posts will be deleted without notice. Any questions should be directed to the British moderators via Private Message.

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  #171  
Old 06-01-2011, 04:16 PM
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Yes, of course I know Maxima was already working when she met the Crown Prince of the Netherlands. She was an international investment banker, I believe. The point is, she was not waiting (seemingly) to catch (or to marry) a prince (so to speak) and didn't even believe her husband when he first told her he was a prince.

I stand corrected on the second point. Thank you!
So given your post above, and given in another one of your previous posts you said Kate was "doing nothing" with her education... What would Kate have to have done prior to becoming engaged to William that would change your opinion?
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  #172  
Old 06-01-2011, 06:09 PM
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So given your post above, and given in another one of your previous posts you said Kate was "doing nothing" with her education... What would Kate have to have done prior to becoming engaged to William that would change your opinion?
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I get your point. I'm a fan of most royals. However, I dislike "fawning" over or exaggerating the attributes of royals. I neither like nor dislike her at this point.. and I do like to be surprised.
Taking the bold part (my doing) into consideration, I think that plays a huge part in why she wants to see proof that Catherine did something useful (then again, who and/or what decides what is "useful"?) between graduating and becoming engaged to William.
I think that proof would mean that she is "worthy" of "fawning" over or exaggerating attributes. Which I take that she finds most of us doing here.
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  #173  
Old 06-01-2011, 08:34 PM
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Taking the bold part (my doing) into consideration, I think that plays a huge part in why she wants to see proof that Catherine did something useful (then again, who and/or what decides what is "useful"?) between graduating and becoming engaged to William.
I think that proof would mean that she is "worthy" of "fawning" over or exaggerating attributes. Which I take that she finds most of us doing here.
We have proof in that Kate's biography, including her employment history, is available through the Prince of Wales' website, and I can also recall Kate herself talking about her work in the engagement interview she did with William. So, unless one thinks Kate and the royal household are lying, we know she worked after she graduated university and was therefore doing something other than waiting for William to propose. Pointing that out isn't fawning or exaggerating anything, although I know that's not what you were getting at. :)
What Im genuinely curious about is this: why is this employment history not enough? Specifically regarding this most recent discussion with monica17, why for example is Princess Mathilde working as a speech therapist for three or four years prior to giving it up to marry the Belgian crown prince a successful career while Kate working for her parents' business is not? Is it the type of job? The fact that she was employed by her family? The fact that it's not directly related to what she studied at university?
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  #174  
Old 06-01-2011, 08:45 PM
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pardon me if i have missed something, but i dont see why she has to have a career. isnt ok to just want to be a stay at home mom? i am 39 years old. mom of 3 kids and i work out side of the house(full time) i still consider my career is my 3 kids and my husband. i would love to have a job where i could help with the family business. if the family thrives, then i would thrive too.

or am i way off base?
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  #175  
Old 06-01-2011, 09:39 PM
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No bethaliz, you are right ON base! I agree with you! At some times in my life, I did not work outside our home; at others I did and have had a very active, creative and responsible professional life. But my children and spouse came first. Kate will have the duty to raise a direct heir to the throne, and that in itself can be a worthy -- and important -- occupation.
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  #176  
Old 06-01-2011, 11:43 PM
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Didn't the Prince William himself suggest that Kate get a job? If I'm wrong in this, then I'm wrong. Sorry for upsetting you.

But I stand by what I said: her employment history isn't very impressive/meaningful considering her potential (coming from a very good school and seemingly intelligent).... Camelot23ca is right on the last part of her post (starting from the sentence about Princess Mathilde). In addition, Mathilde continued with her post-graduate degree and work after she started dating her husband. Also, Kate's choice of working for her parents entitled her to certain conveniences she likely would not have enjoyed while working for others (taking time off to go to events, vacations with William, etc.). You may have other views, but to each his own.

I won't bring up this particular topic anymore, I don't go to this forum to "argue". Besides, I have other royal interests other than this thread or section. Thank you for your replies.
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  #177  
Old 06-01-2011, 11:51 PM
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Who cares about her employment history? What does that have to do with her ability to be a good wife, a good mother, a good friend, and a good consort for William?
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  #178  
Old 06-02-2011, 12:25 AM
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It funny how William suggest to her to get a job, after she was already working. The girl tried to have her own mail-order business with baby clothing after university, then went on to work for her parents, opening up a branch first birthday. She was living her own life during what she wanted to do, but yet somehow she's a failure.
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  #179  
Old 06-02-2011, 04:23 AM
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Miche,

Last word on this particular topic: I do not think and never said Kate was a failure. I only said she didn't seem to make the most of her potential. Big difference.

Also, you posted earlier (in the other thread) that my sources/facts are (from) the tabloids? The Daily Mail? I have other sources (other than the media and much credible than that) to form the basis of whatever I write. That is why I said that I try to base everything that I write (in this forum and my other forum, the Alexander Palace Time Machine Forum) on facts & proper context. I won't go into other details but let's just say, my sources are Almanach de Gotha families, historians (not mere royal watchers but serious historians/scholars/specialists on royalty) and my own research.
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  #180  
Old 06-02-2011, 06:32 AM
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I think I now understand what monica17 is trying to say. According to me, she means that Catherine settled for (much) less, career-wise, than she could have with her potential. Could have aimed (much) higher than working for her parents and so.
A saying just popped up in my mind which I think sums up her opinion (no idea whether it's an existing one, but I think it's interesting): If you can reach for the sky, then why stop at the highest mountain?

I think her opinion will only change when she gets a good explanation for why, in her opinion, Catherine didn't use her potential. I do understand her point, but don't necessarily agree with it.

My opinion is that Catherine did use her potential, I don't believe that she has been wasting away so to say, but she used her potential in a different way than perhaps most of us would have. And I don't mind, every horse has his own rhythm in a trot.
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