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  #641  
Old 10-11-2012, 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by PrincePatrick View Post

The only child of TRH The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge (born during the reign of HM Queen Elizabeth II) to be "of Cambridge" will be the first-born boy (unless new Letters Patent are issued, granting all children of Prince William an HRH and princely style). Moreover, that boy would potentially be known by William's subsidiary title anyway--HRH The Earl of Strathearn. All other children (including all girls and any other boys) will be Lord or Lady X Mountbatten-Windsor until The Prince of Wales accedes, at which point they would become HRH Prince/Princess X of Cornwall and Cambridge.

One final edit: The original point of this post, was to point out that Williams surname (rather the surname of his descendants without titles) is Mountbatten-Windsor, not Windsor.
Even if all of William's children are born within Queen Elizabeth's reign and she doesn't issue Letters Patent concerning their titles, they'll still be "of Cambridge". The eldest son will be Prince Name of Cambridge, while the younger children will be styled Lord Name and Lady Name of Cambridge.

The real surname of those of William's descendants who will not be Princes and Princesses of the United Kingdom and Royal Highnesses will indeed be Mountbatten-Windsor. The surname of those who will bear those styles and titles will be just Windsor. Either way, "Cambridge" would be akin to what "Wales" was for William and Harry, "York" - for Beatrice and Eugenie, and "Wessex" - for Louise and James: a sort of unofficial surname.
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  #642  
Old 10-11-2012, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
Even if all of William's children are born within Queen Elizabeth's reign and she doesn't issue Letters Patent concerning their titles, they'll still be "of Cambridge". The eldest son will be Prince Name of Cambridge, while the younger children will be styled Lord Name and Lady Name of Cambridge.

The real surname of those of William's descendants who will not be Princes and Princesses of the United Kingdom and Royal Highnesses will indeed be Mountbatten-Windsor. The surname of those who will bear those styles and titles will be just Windsor. Either way, "Cambridge" would be akin to what "Wales" was for William and Harry, "York" - for Beatrice and Eugenie, and "Wessex" - for Louise and James: a sort of unofficial surname.
This SO belongs in the thread for titles/styles, but I didn't think that the children of Dukes had the " of X" in their name. That they were Lord Lady X Actual Last name.

The Royal Family just needs to pick one thing and stick with it so we don't have to have these discussions anymore!
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  #643  
Old 10-11-2012, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by PrincePatrick View Post
This SO belongs in the thread for titles/styles, but I didn't think that the children of Dukes had the " of X" in their name. That they were Lord Lady X Actual Last name.

The Royal Family just needs to pick one thing and stick with it so we don't have to have these discussions anymore!
Correct. Any non HRH children will be Lord or Lady Christian name Mountbatten Windsor without the "of Cambridge". Only the one who is an HRH will use the designation "of Cambridge".
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  #644  
Old 10-11-2012, 12:48 PM
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Well, they will all be one day children of the souverain, so it's really not that big an issue. I'm more interested in the fact that the Letters Patent for William again reduces the title and succession to "heirs male" which is traditional and not gender equal.
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  #645  
Old 10-11-2012, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
William, Harry and Kate's real surname (and the House they all belong to) is Windsor.
Are sure about that, Artemisia? I have always tought that, traditionally, Royals have no surnames and only given names. The names of their royal houses or countries or peerages are not their legal surnames but obviously that's what identifies them. Their sexes are recorded in their birth certificates as Princes or Princesses, not males or females or boys or girls. Thus, the Duke of Cambridge is Prince William, Arthur, Philip, Louis, Duke of Cambridge, etc., etc. Kate is not Catherine Windsor but Princess William, Arthur, etc., etc. Those more remote members of the Royal House who are not Princes and Princesses need surnames, of course, and then it is Windsor and Mountbatten-Windsor for male-line descendants of Elizabeth II. It is not a surname passed from father to son as it is usual in common families but regulated by the Letters Patent regarding the descendants of the Royal House.

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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Correct. Any non HRH children will be Lord or Lady Christian name Mountbatten Windsor without the "of Cambridge". Only the one who is an HRH will use the designation "of Cambridge".
Only the first son of Prince William will be a Prince and his designation will be of Cambridge. Any further children, boys and girls, will be just Lord and Ladies and thus, with the name of Mountbatten-Windsor as surname.

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Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
Well, they will all be one day children of the souverain, so it's really not that big an issue. I'm more interested in the fact that the Letters Patent for William again reduces the title and succession to "heirs male" which is traditional and not gender equal.
In 1900, Queen Victoria created her granddaughter's husband, Alexander, the Duke of Fife, a second Duke of Fife, this time in the Peerage of the United Kingdom and with a special remainder that allowed the title to pass to his daughters and then to the heirs male of their bodies. That was needed because Princess Louise, future Edward VII's eldest daughter and future Princess Royal, had only two daughters then after 11 years of marriage. She was 33 years old then and there was a real possibility that she would not give birth to a male heir. William and Catherine are not in the same situation so the Queen did it in the traditional way and the Letters Patent contains the standard remainder. It is not important any way as he is King-to-be and the Dukedom is going to revert to the Crown upon his accession.
An another example of unusual remainder in a grant of peerage is the Duke of Marlborough's. For more info see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of...gh_%28title%29
That was also a case when a really powerful peer had no legal male heirs of his body so it was decided that his title can pass through a different line.
I think they need to abolish the male preference primogeniture in the order of succession to the throne first, and then there may be some changes in the Peerage system.
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  #646  
Old 10-11-2012, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by kbk View Post
Are sure about that, Artemisia? I have always tought that, traditionally, Royals have no surnames and only given names. The names of their royal houses or countries or peerages are not their legal surnames but obviously that's what identifies them. Their sexes are recorded in their birth certificates as Princes or Princesses, not males or females or boys or girls. Thus, the Duke of Cambridge is Prince William, Arthur, Philip, Louis, Duke of Cambridge, etc., etc. Kate is not Catherine Windsor but Princess William, Arthur, etc., etc. Those more remote members of the Royal House who are not Princes and Princesses need surnames, of course, and then it is Windsor and Mountbatten-Windsor for male-line descendants of Elizabeth II. It is not a surname passed from father to son as it is usual in common families but regulated by the Letters Patent regarding the descendants of the Royal House.
Until 1917, British royals did not have surnames and were known by the Houses they belonged to (Windsor, Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, Hanover, etc). However, George V's Letters Patent 1917 specifically stated that "Our House and Family shall be styled and known as the House and Family of Windsor, and that all the descendants in the male line of Our said Grandmother Queen Victoria who are subjects of these Realms, other than female descendants who may marry or may have married, shall bear the said Name of Windsor".

Thus, Windsor became not only the name of the House, but also the actual surname of the members of the Royal Family.

That remained unchanged until Queen Elizabeth's Royal Proclamations of 1952 and 1960. The first one merely confirmed Windsor as the name of the House and Family the Queen herself and her descendants will continue to belong to. The second one, however, stated that those male-line descendants of the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh who do not have the style of Royal Highness and the title of Prince or Princess of the United Kingdom would bear the surname Mountbatten-Windsor.

All of the Queen's sons as well as William, Harry, Beatrice and Eugenie, as the Queen's male-line descendants who have both the styles of Royal Highness and titles of Princes and Princesses, belong to the House and Family of Windsor. The situation with Lady Louise and Viscount Severn is a bit more complicated. If we accept they are British Princess and Prince (as per Letters Parent 1917, which are still in force today), then they are Windsors as well. If, however, we accept they are only entitled to the styles and titles of children of an Earl, then they are Mountbatten-Windsor.
Kate, as William's wife, shares not only his styles and titles but also his surname, making her a Windsor as well.


Regarding the "of Cambridge" for William's children other than the first-born son (born during the Queen's reign), PrincePatrick, NGalitzine and you are absolutely correct. My apologies for the error: I should have been more careful.
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  #647  
Old 10-12-2012, 01:00 AM
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I'm afraid it was might fault that this thread was high-jacked for the day! But I absolutely love these discussions. I always feel so certain about styles and titles, then suddenly I am shown a new minute detail (Windsor versus Mountbatten-Windsor for instance).

Back on the subject of married life--I wonder if the couple has any plans to attend Halloween parties this year. Is that "a thing" in England? I love when couples come up with clever duo costumes!
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  #648  
Old 10-12-2012, 04:30 AM
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Some down time in Wales before Remembrance day will be nice
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  #649  
Old 10-12-2012, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
Thus, Windsor became not only the name of the House, but also the actual surname of the members of the Royal Family.
Well, I am not absolutely convinced of this.... It is the name of the Family but not the surname. When George V limited the titles of prince and princess and Royal status to only two generations (except the heir's heir's heir) of his family, a name was needed for those who were left with nothing or just the style and title of a child of a non-Royal Duke. So he assumed that they will bear the new house's name as their family name thus becoming a surname. But it does not mean Windsor is a surname of those who are Princes and Princesses from the Royal House of Windsor. He decided that his family, those who will not have royal status, will bear the name but did not make all of them surnamed Windsor.

We also need to remember that there were not only George V's immediate family who were affected by the changes and became then members of the House of Windsor. They were the King's sister Princess Victoria, his paternal uncle Prince Arthur, Duke of Connaught, the Duke's son Prince Arthur of Connaught, and the latter's son Prince Alastair of Connaught. Under the Letters Patent limiting the titles and styles of Brtish princes and princesses, Alastair lost his title and style as he was a male-line great-grandson of a Sovereign (Queen Victoria). Then he became a Lord and needed a surname. Under the new provisions regarding the family name, he assumed the surname Windsor, being George V's first cousin once removed. His grandfather, father, aunt and Princess Victoria remained Royals and continued to have no surnames but their new house (and in the wider meaning, their family) name was Windsor for sure.
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  #650  
Old 10-12-2012, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl
Some down time in Wales before Remembrance day will be nice
I hope they'll be able to have a couple of weeks' worth of 'reconnect' time, or at least a few opportunities for date nights. They've been running around like chickens with their heads chopped off.
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  #651  
Old 10-12-2012, 11:16 PM
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Yes, Catherine is officially a Windsor.
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  #652  
Old 10-13-2012, 03:43 AM
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Yes, Catherine is officially a Windsor.
Mountbatten-Windsor if you wish to pull hairs.
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  #653  
Old 10-13-2012, 04:29 AM
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Mountbatten-Windsor died on the vine. I realise it is a nod to Philip but it has never caught on in the media or more importantly, with the 'Mountbatten-Windsors' themselves.
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  #654  
Old 10-13-2012, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
Mountbatten-Windsor died on the vine. I realise it is a nod to Philip but it has never caught on in the media or more importantly, with the 'Mountbatten-Windsors' themselves.
As far as I am aware, both Charles and Anne used the name to sign their second wedding certificates. I don't think it's died in vain, I think the family themselves respect the name and their father.
It's not exactly easy to have a surname when you're a royal.
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  #655  
Old 10-13-2012, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
As far as I am aware, both Charles and Anne used the name to sign their second wedding certificates. I don't think it's died in vain, I think the family themselves respect the name and their father.
It's not exactly easy to have a surname when you're a royal.
It really does get confusing sometimes doesn't it.

Jumped over to Wiki and this is a short clip from the information there from searching Mountbatten-Windsor surname.

"The Order specifically applies the surname to those descendants of the Queen not holding Royal styles and titles, but Mountbatten-Windsor has been applied to or informally used by the descendents of Queen Elizabeth II that hold Royal styles, as shown at the marriages of the Duke of York and the Princess Royal, both having been registered with Mountbatten-Windsor in their entries in the marriage registers."
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  #656  
Old 10-13-2012, 06:43 PM
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It is probable used as often as he used Charles Phillip Arthur George. It is probable only used on Marriage Certificates, Birth Certificates. It is still there, but just used rarely. What the names of Viscount Severn's children. The second son, if her remains untitled.
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  #657  
Old 10-13-2012, 06:54 PM
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It is probable used as often as he used Charles Phillip Arthur George. It is probable only used on Marriage Certificates, Birth Certificates. It is still there, but just used rarely. What the names of Viscount Severn's children. The second son, if her remains untitled.
I believe that the Mountbatten-Windsor surname comes into play if the descendant does not have a royal title. In the case of Edward and Sophie's children, James has his father's secondary title which is Viscount Severn but Louise. without having a royal title. will be known as Lady Louise Mountbatten-Windsor.
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  #658  
Old 10-13-2012, 08:03 PM
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Please note that all posts regarding a possible Cambridge pregnancy have been deleted as speculative.

If and when a pregnancy is announced by Clarence House and/or Buckingham Palace and a separate thread will be opened.

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  #659  
Old 10-15-2012, 12:26 PM
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Seeing a copy of the certificate for Charles and Camilla reminded me (that the last I knew) - the certificate for William and Kate was not available for public viewing. Is this still true?
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Old 10-15-2012, 12:39 PM
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OK this is from a Blog - so maybe not the best source - but apparently William and Catherine's certificate is not to be made public. That is true, the Registry says for all but one Royal Wedidng;
William and Kate's marriage certificate will be kept secret ~ News Conner

PS - that link is a reblog of the DAILY MAIL article: http://www.mailonsunday.ie/news/arti...rtificate.html
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