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  #1041  
Old 09-29-2012, 05:22 PM
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You know, I don't see why those who happen to have a different opinion should feel ashamed, inadequate or just "proven" to be wrong.

- Do I think the pictures, every single one of them, are gross invasion of Kate's (or any woman's) privacy? Yes, I do.
- Was it a private residence where William and Kate had the right to enjoy their privacy? Yes, it was.
- Did the incident cause considerable distress to William, Kate and their families? I should think so: no one deserves that kind of treatment.
- Did Kate and William show remarkably bad judgement? Yes, I strongly feel that to be the case.

I happen to think that no woman should change her bikini top and especially bottoms outside. Maybe it's old-fashioned and horribly un-feminist of me, but there you go. Forget about paparazzi, prying neighbours or perverts - what about the staff and/or security? Do not tell me they were naive enough to believe no one would be able to see them, especially since they are two of the most photographed people in the world. Like it or not, they can never be certain they are not followed, so why give the press such a field day? We are not talking about cuddles or sunbathing, it was full frontal nudity - a pretty damn bad idea even if you are Jane Doe and no one cares what you look like in the privacy of your own home or on a beach.

Just because I happen to like William and Kate doesn't mean I can't or shouldn't criticise them for what I personally believe to be a huge error of judgement. Those picture will always be there, they cannot be undone or forgotten.

Again, this is strictly my opinion. I don't expect others to agree with it but I'd rather not be slated for it either.
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  #1042  
Old 09-29-2012, 05:33 PM
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"Those picture will always be there, they cannot be undone or forgotten." So what? What's the message when people keep repeating this?
The Countess of Wessex's undercover NOTW tapes are 'out there' . The secret recordings between the Prince of Wales and the Duchess of Cornwall are 'out there'.
Lady Di's entire life is 'out there', etc etc...

Thank God most of the British public don't think like people on this thread.
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  #1043  
Old 09-29-2012, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
...
- Did Kate and William show remarkably bad judgement? Yes, I strongly feel that to be the case.

I happen to think that no woman should change her bikini top and especially bottoms outside....

That's fair enough. I think you are not alone. I certainly have a tinge of that in my overall opinion as well. As you say, that is an aspect. I think it's perfectly reasonable to think they ought to have been more careful - and wished they had of been.

Which, to make clear, I am NOT equating with they got what they deserved and which seems evident is your position as well. It is not their fault and they did nothing *wrong*. Poor judgment, or an error in judgement is morally neutral in this context.

And as you also point out, the above notwithstanding, the invasion was wrong and we ought not to stand for it.

Both feelings can co-exist.
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  #1044  
Old 09-29-2012, 06:06 PM
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And as you also point out, the above notwithstanding, the invasion was wrong and we ought not to stand for it.

Both feelings can co-exist.
Indeed, both opinions and feelings can and apparently do co-exist.
And I certainly believe, as I have stated in all of my posts, that taking and publishing those pictures is a gross violation of privacy.
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  #1045  
Old 09-29-2012, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
Tad dramatic aren't we? This 'scandal' doesn't even make it into the top 10 as far as the Windsors are concerned.
I'm sure if most everyone we encounter on a daily basis had seen us naked the last thing we would think about is where the incident ranks among bad things that have happened to people in our families in the past. This is still fresh plus there have been hints that there are even more intimate pictures. I don't think it's dramatic to say that Catherine is embarrassed.
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  #1046  
Old 09-29-2012, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Noble Consort Ming View Post
. I don't think it's dramatic to say that Catherine is embarrassed.
Unlike you, I can't read Catherine's mind so I'll have to take your word for it.
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  #1047  
Old 09-29-2012, 07:44 PM
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Actually, I think it's almost a guarantee that she is embarrassed and has not "moved on" to use the common phrase. Rather I suspect she is "moving" because that's what you have to do to get to the past tense of the thing.

I am in no way a feminist. I identify as a humanist. That said, there are differences in the ways the genders deal with and are dealt with by the world.

For instance. William was also naked from the waist up. Did this factor into anything at all? Are the headlines saying "William and Kate's Naked Breasts". No. Have we discussed whether William should have bared his chest? No, that would be silly, right? The female body is treated differently by society. Full stop. Undeniable, self evident truth.

So, the violation to Catherine is very sexualized and thus is tied, in ways we have not yet evolved past, so rooted are they in our evolutionary imperatives, to her sense of her place in society. It's not so much how she feels about herself, but how she knows, instinctively, that society now sees her differently. She has very deliberately presented herself in a very neutral way, in this regard. She has never once put a foot wrong in presenting a strong, feminine personality who does not need to send any overt sexual signals. What they did was sexualize her ... shifted the way the world, or some portion of it, sees her. Even if we hold her blameless, even if we sympathize with her, even if we feel protective and outraged, every one of us has a slightly altered perception of her now. Cannot. Be. Helped. It's part of the human condition we can't wish away - our worldview is like the law ... every experience builds upon the last ... we can't unring bells.

So, yes, I guess she is embarrassed. The same way you or I would be if we got photographed naked and our Moms and Dads, friends, relatives and strangers all saw the pictures. To quote my 15 year old niece, "Eeeeew."

Catherine couldn't instantly separate the intellectual condition of "I did nothing wrong" from the responsive condition of "OMG" any better than any one of us could, I would say. As proof I offer the oldest recorded piece of narrative on human nature: Adam and Eve and the Great Fig Leaf incident of '00, if that's the mythology you follow.

Or something like that. YMMV
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  #1048  
Old 09-29-2012, 07:47 PM
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Any woman would be embarrassed, I think it shows a lot of her character that she will not let her embarrassment,'pain and distress run her life. Going out there and continuing to smile shows the world that she won't be easily broken.
Let's talk about how William looked in these photos; didn't he have a little bit of belly? Why is Kate's body always the topic of discussion.
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  #1049  
Old 09-29-2012, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
Any woman would be embarrassed, I think it shows a lot of her character that she will not let her embarrassment,'pain and distress run her life. Going out there and continuing to smile shows the world that she won't be easily broken.
Hah hah :) You said in two sentences what took me several convoluted paragraphs. I think I need to hire you as my editor :)

Yes. As you say, I think.
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  #1050  
Old 09-29-2012, 07:55 PM
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page 53
are you all going crazy???s

Is this world really loosing is mind?

When I am in private Ia AM private, no matter who I am.

Everything esle is intrusion and WRONG.

Stop discussing this matter, stop looking at picturs and stop buying these mags. finished.

53 pages about a few pictuers which were taken without permission.

FINISH STOP GET A LIVE
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  #1051  
Old 09-29-2012, 08:05 PM
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Granted I'm a guy and can't say for certain that Catherine isn't embarrassed, but if this happened to me, I would be angry, I would be outraged, I would be out for blood but I wouldn't be embarrassed or ashamed.
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  #1052  
Old 09-29-2012, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by justina View Post
page 53
are you all going crazy???s

Is this world really loosing it minrd?

When I am in private Ia AM private, no matter who I am.

Everything esle is intrusion and WRONG.

Stop discussing this matter, stop looking at picturs and stop buying these mags. finished.

53 pages about a few pictuers which were taken without permission.

FINISH STOP GET A LIVE

Whoa there, cowpoke. Clearly you have not read the thread. There is no prurient interest here. We have been discussing privacy issues, amongst other things. It's a big topic and takes many words.

We are not to be grouped with the people looking at the photos and buying magazines. Read backwards. And could you stop yelling, we're not deaf.

We're pretty much just having a discussion about the other things you said - privacy, intrusion, etc.

Insofar as I believe you mean to say "GET A LIFE" ... it just makes me chuckle. And not in that "people are so cute" way, but in that other way, you know the one ... "people can be such idiots" way.

Here's some free advice: Some types of throws just say more about the pitcher than the catcher.
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  #1053  
Old 09-29-2012, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
Granted I'm a guy and can't say for certain that Catherine isn't embarrassed, but if this happened to me, I would be angry, I would be outraged, I would be out for blood but I wouldn't be embarrassed or ashamed.
I think embarrassed is the wrong word. It has a common usage that implies an underlying sense of guilt as in you ought to be embarrassed!.

Let's say she has discomfort ... is uncomfortable that the parts of her she chooses to share only in private have been made public, that her sense of decorum has been breached and that she is sensitive to both her and her husband's positions. She can be uncomfortable/embarrassed that it happened, without being embarrassed in a body image or guilt induced way.

Reducing it: We can all agree that it is not proper to see the Queen naked. And we have seen her naked. And she will be Queen. It's a linear trip, and a short one, to discomfort. Which is what I mean when I say "embarrassed".
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  #1054  
Old 09-29-2012, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
You know, I don't see why those who happen to have a different opinion should feel ashamed, inadequate or just "proven" to be wrong.

- Do I think the pictures, every single one of them, are gross invasion of Kate's (or any woman's) privacy? Yes, I do.
- Was it a private residence where William and Kate had the right to enjoy their privacy? Yes, it was.
- Did the incident cause considerable distress to William, Kate and their families? I should think so: no one deserves that kind of treatment.
- Did Kate and William show remarkably bad judgement? Yes, I strongly feel that to be the case.

I happen to think that no woman should change her bikini top and especially bottoms outside. Maybe it's old-fashioned and horribly un-feminist of me, but there you go. Forget about paparazzi, prying neighbours or perverts - what about the staff and/or security? Do not tell me they were naive enough to believe no one would be able to see them, especially since they are two of the most photographed people in the world. Like it or not, they can never be certain they are not followed, so why give the press such a field day? We are not talking about cuddles or sunbathing, it was full frontal nudity - a pretty damn bad idea even if you are Jane Doe and no one cares what you look like in the privacy of your own home or on a beach.

Just because I happen to like William and Kate doesn't mean I can't or shouldn't criticise them for what I personally believe to be a huge error of judgement. Those picture will always be there, they cannot be undone or forgotten.

Again, this is strictly my opinion. I don't expect others to agree with it but I'd rather not be slated for it either.
Agree with everything. Very well said.
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  #1055  
Old 09-29-2012, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Catherine J View Post
We can all agree that it is not proper to see the Queen naked. And we have seen her naked. And she will be Queen. It's a linear trip, and a short one, to discomfort. Which is what I mean when I say "embarrassed".
But through no fault of her own have some people seen her naked and for me, the context of these photos is what is important and for the record, I certainly haven't seen our future Queen naked.
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  #1056  
Old 09-29-2012, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
But through no fault of her own have some people seen her naked and for me, the context of these photos is what is important and for the record, I certainly haven't seen our future Queen naked.
:) Nor have I. But I know lots of people have.

Yes, of course, she did nothing wrong, in the moral sense. She has no need of guilt or shame. But it would naturally be uncomfortable.

We will all forget it. But she will be the very last one to do so, mark me.
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  #1057  
Old 09-29-2012, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Catherine J View Post
Actually, I think it's almost a guarantee that she is embarrassed and has not "moved on" to use the common phrase. Rather I suspect she is "moving" because that's what you have to do to get to the past tense of the thing.
I think it's natural for her to be embarrassed, and I'm sure she hates the fact that photos of her breasts and/or the rest of her body have been published. But in the general scheme of things, it's not really a big deal and I'm sure she will be able to move on very soon if she hasn't already. She has the support of her husband and I'm sure the rest of her family and friends, and society generally.

If Camilla and Charles can move on from the tampon conversation, Kate and William sure as hell can put this in the past.

Quote:
I am in no way a feminist. I identify as a humanist.
Really? You don't believe in political, economic, and social equality of the sexes? I certainly do, and I'm also a humanist; I believe the two theories can stand together.

Quote:
That said, there are differences in the ways the genders deal with and are dealt with by the world.
Yep. Fact of life. There are differences between the genders. In Western society breasts have been sexualized but the extent to which they are taboo varies from culture to culture and demographic to demographic. I doubt that most of society will see Kate differently as a result of this and I sincerely hope her sense of her place in society has not been affected.
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  #1058  
Old 09-29-2012, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
Really? You don't believe in political, economic, and social equality of the sexes? I certainly do, and I'm also a humanist; I believe the two theories can stand together.
Really :)

I certainly do believe in equality. I just refuse to sexualize it. I believe in universal, global, human equality. In the same way I bristle against gay rights, women's rights, children's rights. We just need equality. Period. It is my personal belief that being a humanist precludes being any other sort of "ist" because it includes all the "ists" naturally.

YMMV.
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  #1059  
Old 09-29-2012, 09:30 PM
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The whole thing makes me sick. It is sickening that some respectable news outlets have republished the photos albeit with certain areas covered up. It makes me sick that they are online for people to see. It is true a grotesque invasion of privacy. The pap who shot them should be caught I hope, d! Give the bloody *bleep* a taste of his own medicine.
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  #1060  
Old 09-29-2012, 10:18 PM
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For me being embarrassed does not have to mean you did something wrong, being ashamed implies guilt to me but not embarrassment. Walking around with your slip in your panty hose is embarrassing yet there is no guilt associated with it. With Kate I can imagine embarrassment that people have seen her body, the fact that it wasn't her fault doesn't take away the embarrassment that anyone who has access to the Internet can see parts of her she doesn't want seen.
Btw, I'm a woman and I am definitely not a feminist.

Quote:
The pap who shot them should be caught I hope, d! Give the bloody *bleep* a taste of his own medicine.
SWEET! Let's strip him or her naked and take photos and every news outlet will publish them. Definitely a good idea, I'm taking videos as well.
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