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  #821  
Old 09-23-2012, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post


Personally, I don't think rich or famous people are not entitled to privacy, far from it. Artists, actresses, entrepreneurs, and others in position of wealth or fame have as much rights to privacy as anyone else. The thing is, those people don't live in castles that (in most cases) belong to people, their security is not paid by people, their official expenses are not covered by people, they usually have made their own fortune through hard work, their well-being is not placed above that of any of their countrymen...

From that perspective, Royal Families - all of them - do in part belong to people. If royals do not like that state of things, they can always relinquish their rights and become private citizens - immensely wealthy and privileged still, but private nonetheless.

Again, this is my opinion. No offence is meant towards anyone or disrespect towards anyone's point of view.
Totally agree with what you say.

On another note, I think going topless outside, no matter the level of privacy, is just not classy coming from a ''princess''. Her husband is the future Head of the English Church. Come on! Royalty has to make us believe they're different from us. I think the BRF fails at this (except for the senior members).
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  #822  
Old 09-23-2012, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Polly View Post

Franks finds it interesting and bewildering that the response to these situations is so often to blame the woman involved. The argument goes: "'You shouldn't have given those pictures to that person', or 'You shouldn't have been sunbathing in a private residence', or 'You should never, as a woman, take off your clothes in any context where anybody could possibly ever have a camera'. That's been shocking to me, that people aren't just outraged and furious about this, but they're actually making excuses for this behaviour, and blaming women for ever being sexual any time, at all.

"Even in a completely private setting, within a marriage – it couldn't be any more innocuous than the Middleton situation – and yet people are still saying things like: what was she expecting, she's famous and she's got breasts, and therefore she's got to keep them covered up all the time. I do think it's a rage against women being sexual on their own terms. We're perfectly fine with women being sexual, as long as they are objects and they're passive, and we can turn them on, turn them off, download them, delete them, whatever it is. But as soon as it's women who want to have any kind of exclusionary rights about their intimacy, we hate that. We say, 'No, we're going to make a whore out of you'."

Women everywhere, from every walk of life, should be insulted and angry at this egregious violation. Every man or boy in my life is, too, on the Duchess' behalf.
I think you're over reaching with your argument. This isn't about a woman's right to exhibit her sexuality. We don't know why Kate took her top off; sunbathing, because William asked her to, etc. This is all speculation. I think it's simply if you don't want your image splashed around the world, don't do something that will cause the splash.

To turn this pretty simplistic situation into one of, "women will be punished unless the feed into the lies of the patriarchy" is ridiculous.
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  #823  
Old 09-23-2012, 05:36 PM
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Since marrying into the royal family, Catherine did an excellent job representing the British Establisment. Due to the plans to visit the Pacific Island. She and William needed to get away be themselves like any young couple,discuss their "coming events" privately hence go to the Pacific.

At the end of the day they did a superb Job as guest on the Islands.
The British people should continue to be proud of them.

As I said before."Experience Is Our Best Teacher, Tomorrow Is Another Day and This Dark Cloud Will Pass Like Others.
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  #824  
Old 09-23-2012, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by HRHHermione View Post
If this is true, it's a hideous invasion of her privacy and a horrible thing to do. There's no reason on earth she shouldn't sunbathe topless on private property on a vacation with her husband if she chooses to do so:

It is an invasion of privacy, but somehow I think that celebrities especially of that kind must realize that this is the only luxury the simply can't have.
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  #825  
Old 09-23-2012, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Cicmil Crowns View Post
It is an invasion of privacy, but somehow I think that celebrities especially of that kind must realize that this is the only luxury the simply can't have.
You opinion is a fact. William and Catherine are the two most photographed people in the world. They deserve privacy but privacy for attractive royals is nearly unobtainable.
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  #826  
Old 09-23-2012, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by lancchick View Post

To turn this pretty simplistic situation into one of, "women will be punished unless the feed into the lies of the patriarchy" is ridiculous.
Well, now, I do disagree with you. Nor was I discussing 'the lies of the patriarchy': no, the burden of my song was against the misrepresentations (a subtle distinction) of the patriarchy and bemoaning the fact that some of its helpmeets are women.

Despite my personal admiration for the Duchess, I believe that women everywhere should be willling to speak up and protest the objectification and belitting of others wherever it rears its ugly head. Here, we saw the unacceptable face of bullying, as Catherine J so rightly pointed out.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion, of course, but that some can't see this outrage as indicative of the ingrained degrading attitude towards women, or if they do, do not regard it as a problem and socially divisive, shows that there is a long way to go before genuine equality of the sexes is the norm. Philosophically speaking, the arguments for, in my opinion, are not too far removed from those supporting equality in marriage between loving couples, irrespective of gender. Surely, it's time and enough to expect that all people really do have equal rights, even, as in this case, a Princess!

So far as being topless is 'not classy'.....I can only respond that for some, knowledge of some royals' behaviour in the past is very limited, and was not always restricted to one's husband as the only audience, for that matter. The difference is that today the snoops have telephoto lenses and camera-fitted drones and other electronic devices to enhance their illegal spying.

Nor do I believe that royalty, at least this couple of royals, want to make us believe that they are different from us. Au contraire! The Duke and Duchess have been at pains to mix and match with everyone they've met; to happily join in, with gusto, all local celebrations and carnivals; to dress modestly for the most part; to live, so far as possible, the ordinary life of a newly wedded couple and enjoy a simple domesticity; to value and continue with pre-marriage friends and connections; to keep the Middleton family central to their daily lives, against established expectations, etc.

As for the Duke's one day being Head of the Church of England, I take it that it's regarded as a greater impediment that his wife appeared topless before him, rather than, say, his father marrying a divorced woman whose husband was stilll living?
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  #827  
Old 09-23-2012, 06:52 PM
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ITA, Polly. Wonderful posts and I agree with you. I'd had to stop visiting this thread for a while because it was making me so angry seeing people (albeit a minority) say Kate was in the wrong here. I simply don't understand that viewpoint at all.
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  #828  
Old 09-23-2012, 06:58 PM
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Polly, another brilliant comment!
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  #829  
Old 09-23-2012, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Polly View Post
Despite my personal admiration for the Duchess, I believe that women everywhere should be willling to speak up and protest the objectification and belitting of others wherever it rears its ugly head. Here, we saw the unacceptable face of bullying, as Catherine J so rightly pointed out.
I also have to jump on the bandwagon and thank you for your posts.

I think just the fact that we can debate and discuss this recent issue intelligently among ourselves gives the meaning that there are a few more people in this world that have been drawn to think of this kind of violation of privacy as bullying and if just one person decides to take a stand somehow, its a small step into turning what the paps wanted to be a scandalous "scoop" into positive action. Perhaps one person in the future that will be able to do this with the most conviction as she's been a victim herself is Kate herself. Wasn't one of the causes she selected after her marriage have to deal with bullying?
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  #830  
Old 09-23-2012, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Polly View Post
So far as being topless is 'not classy'....
I am enjoying your posts, Polly.

It is the snipped bit here, and all other phrases of its ugly ilk, where I begin to despair for my gender ever attaining anything remotely close to actual equality since we cannot seem to get out of each other's way.

Not to be indelicate, but were the photos of William and Catherine engaging in some sexual activity which I myself (or the mainstream) would find unusual or deviant it would still be the same matter to me.

Judging her behaviour as being a contributing factor to her own abuse is ... well, it's old, it's wrong and it is itself abusive.

It. Does. Not. Matter. What. She. Was. Doing. Or. Whether. We. Agree. With. It. Or. Whether. She. Should. Have. Known. She. Might. Be. Photographed.

We should be gathered around her in a protective circle. Instead, half of us are pointing at her with accusing fingers.

Shame on us, really.
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  #831  
Old 09-23-2012, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Wasn't one of the causes she selected after her marriage have to deal with bullying?
Yes, Beat Bullying is one of her chosen charities.
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  #832  
Old 09-23-2012, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by lancchick View Post
I think you're over reaching with your argument. This isn't about a woman's right to exhibit her sexuality. We don't know why Kate took her top off; sunbathing, because William asked her to, etc. This is all speculation. I think it's simply if you don't want your image splashed around the world, don't do something that will cause the splash.
I agree. I didn't see it as having anything to do with Kate's right to exhibit her sexuality, and I don't think it matters that she was doing it in the presence of her husband. She could have been sunbathing topless in the presence of any friend or family member, or even staff member, she felt comfortable with and trusted not to photograph her. Topless sunbathing is no big deal and I don't see anything sexual about it the situation. William wasn't groping her.

I didn't see any issue relating to the objectification or degradation of women involved here, and I have very sensitive antennae when it comes to things like that and am usually the first to sqwark and flap when I perceive it has happened.

The issue is privacy and expectations as to it. And also cultural attitudes to female breasts. Western attitudes are different to those in other cultures, as Kate herself saw only so clearly so soon after the event.

The situation would have been no different if it were William who had been snapped, without his trunks on. Harry already knows that his naked form is of interest. Our society has unwritten rules about what parts of the body it is acceptable to display, and if either gender displays some part that is not on the list, and someone with a camera is around, they are likely to be photographed and the photo published somewhere. This is not sexual discrimination, just general pervery.
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  #833  
Old 09-23-2012, 08:11 PM
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Polly - Love having your POV here on the forums and I love how you say what you say.

But, royalty or no, double standards continue between men and women and that's part of the issue. We still want women to be MODELS in a number of not-very-important-ways.

William packed 4-5 ties for the trip. Kate has an entire Forum here dedicated to her day dresses and another for what she wears to evening affairs. And then we all cheered her or booed her fashion choices in the Far East. We are part of the problem. We feed on it. Myself included.

Until the topless photos there was a lot of discussion in TRF about Kate's depth of neckline during the trip. Can we really be surprised that there was a bounty for sunbathing photos? We own a part of the problem. We can be part of the solution. Just saying...
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  #834  
Old 09-23-2012, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by AdmirerUS View Post
We own a part of the problem. We can be part of the solution. Just saying...
Yes, I agree.
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  #835  
Old 09-23-2012, 08:26 PM
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Whomever, said Kate and William want to fit in is is correct. That is where they forgot, that their celebrity would open them up to this, because if they were just Mr. and Mrs. Windsor, no one would have taken the photograph and no one would have purchased a copy of it. Unfortunately, they are in ths status of "celebrity" and know they are prey for the camera. Yes, they should have privacy, but they will have to get other jobs.
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  #836  
Old 09-23-2012, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
Yes, they should have privacy, but they will have to get other jobs.
The point I am interested in making is that as long as we stick with this attitude, we will never have change. It's like choosing to walk a different way to school so the bullies don't get you. By this logic, since you know they are on a certain road, it would be your own fault if you took that road and got caught.

Sounds reasonable, right?

I direct you to the words of the great American writer, George Bernard Shaw:

Quote:
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.


I suggest we need progress. I suppose I will have to remain expecting unreasonable things :)

YMMV
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  #837  
Old 09-23-2012, 09:56 PM
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This idea of it's their fault because they are celebrities is trying to take the blame off ourselves for allowing a world where behavior like this is allowed. It isn't the photographers fault or the skeezy magazines but the people who buy said magazines. Essentially saying that the editors and photographers are unable to act with responsibly compassion and human decency and they should be let off the hook for not having any. These are not impulsive 2 yr olds who don't know the difference between right and wrong and they shouldnt be let off the hook or given a pass when they do something wrong.
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  #838  
Old 09-23-2012, 10:02 PM
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I've firmly decided:
  1. Kate AND William made an error in judgement by believing that they could not be observed or photographed at the chateau.
  2. They were wrong.
  3. They are dealing with the fallout in the way they've decided as a couple is the way they want to deal with it.
  4. They won't make this same error in judgement ever again. Lesson learned.
  5. This difficulty will make them - and their marriage - stronger.
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  #839  
Old 09-23-2012, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by CanRoyal View Post
I've firmly decided:
  1. Kate AND William made an error in judgement by believing that they could not be observed or photographed at the chateau.
  2. They were wrong.
  3. They are dealing with the fallout in the way they've decided as a couple is the way they want to deal with it.
  4. They won't make this same error in judgement ever again. Lesson learned.
  5. This difficulty will make them - and their marriage - stronger.
I agree with 3 and 5.

(1) I believe is misworded. I could combine (1) and (2) by saying they were wrong to believe they could not be photographed. Evidence makes this a fact. As separate statements, I don't know ... a good cup of tea and an afternoon in a sunny spot and we could have a good conversation about it, I suspect. It's largely a semantic and inference issue for me.

(4) Is probably true.

I wish there was a (5) ...

(5) William and Catherine will start a campaign to codify a set of professional standards that become international law regarding the right to privacy for all people. They will throw themselves into the thing they may be best suited, of all the people in the world, to endeavor: taking back the individual's right to privacy and the ability to enforce said rights. Like a Geneva Convention of Right to Privacy.

Oh well, a girl can dream.

:)
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  #840  
Old 09-24-2012, 10:26 AM
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Lesson learned?

Frankly I doubt it. Remember the picture of the two walking on the beach during their honeymoon on some remote island? Photographers are everywhere and there is always someone willing to publish their shots. They should have known it ...
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