The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #241  
Old 08-03-2013, 04:58 AM
blauerengel's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Vienna, Austria
Posts: 1,732
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imanmajed View Post
The attorneys have provided evidence that the housemaid always traveled together with the family first-class. Also their work contracts, salary and their workload does not differ from the usual agreements in the region. That was basically everything. Media tend to formulate things exaggerated.

Predominantly the maids have very personal reasons why they just run away during a stay abroad. Often this has nothing to do with the family for whom they work.

Interesting for me is rather the legal question: Are the Saudi labor contracts automatically valid abroad (I would say: yes, they are) or must the work agreements be modified, especially for a (longer) stay? Is there any differences in this matter in different countries? I´m stumped for an answer.

You always have to follow the laws of the country you live or work in.

The maids probably had a good reason to run away, I have a lot of people working for me -gardeners,plumbers,cleaning women etc. and nobody ever tried to run away or reported to the police.
Why should anybody go to the police unless they have a good reason to do so, especially when they enjoy "a life of luxury"? Living in Dubai you should know that there are areas in the city where workers live in houses that are not as beautiful,polished and clean as the glossy image Westerners are shown to make us want to visit your country. (I have seen the rather dirty and third-worldish areas myself,it is not a distorted image of the media. If anybody is interested, I can post some images in the UAE thread.) In Saudi Arabia they are probably not living very different... The maids largely depend on the good will and mercy of their employers-if they are lucky they work for a nice family where they are treated with respect.

Every normal person tries to avoid unnecessary contact with the police or government officials.
People who report a crime or injustice do not enjoy talking about their misery-they only do so because they believe in justice and hope that the people responsible for their suffering will be held accountable.
__________________

__________________
Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it.
Avoiding danger in the long run is no safer than outright exposure.
Life is either a daring adventure,or nothing
. Helen Keller
Reply With Quote
  #242  
Old 08-03-2013, 07:59 AM
Imanmajed's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Posts: 1,289
Quote:
Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
Oh, stop the nonsense. ...... People run away because they are frightened and unhappy. .......Look in the mirror. People run away because they have miserable lives and are unhappy.....
"Looking in the mirror" means to recognize own mistakes. If we both look in the same mirror, we will recognize differences. But there will be always seen faults which perpetrated from both sides. No one is free from such things. You should not forget it!
__________________

__________________
ماجد (engl. translation: Majid)


Reply With Quote
  #243  
Old 08-03-2013, 08:21 AM
Imanmajed's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Posts: 1,289
We should talk about the corresponding case of the the wife of a Saudi prince and do not overlap the topic of the thread with generalizations.

Background informations for a better understanding may be important to a certain degree here in the current thread, but in my opinion they should be well researched and do not represent the reproduction of prejudice or biased viewpoints.
__________________
ماجد (engl. translation: Majid)


Reply With Quote
  #244  
Old 08-03-2013, 08:22 AM
Imanmajed's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Posts: 1,289
Quote:
Originally Posted by blauerengel View Post
You always have to follow the laws of the country you live or work in.
Of course, I think you're absolutely right. However, this raises the question of the legality of an employment contract, which was concluded abroad and not initially intended for use in United States. Probably we can not find an answer and maybe it exceeds the intentions of the thread, but again the questions: Would there a need for a changing of a preceding, valid existing foreign treaty? Is there a law in U.S. which describes a minimum wage or a maximum amount of work of certain individuals or is it freely negotiable?
__________________
ماجد (engl. translation: Majid)


Reply With Quote
  #245  
Old 08-03-2013, 11:24 AM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Spring Hill, United States
Posts: 2,472
There is a minimum wage and there are laws that protect workers from abusive work conditions. They must have a day off. Be free to go wherever they want. You cannot take someone's passport. I am sure she flew in the first class cabin to take care of their needs, not because they wanted her comfortable.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #246  
Old 08-03-2013, 12:18 PM
Imanmajed's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Posts: 1,289
Quote:
Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
There is a minimum wage and there are laws that protect workers from abusive work conditions. They must have a day off. Be free to go wherever they want. You cannot take someone's passport......
My thanks for answering of a part of my questions. It helps to illuminate the case from different perspectives. Does your statement also refers to "foreign work contracts" or only focus on contracts which concluded in United States? Is there a connection between the residence status and the stipulated work?

Maybe I had ignored or it was not written, but it is known whether the Saudi royal family has forbidden the housemaids to leave the family´s home at their leisure? If so, security reasons may be considered of this decision..... Did security reasons change the facts - in legal terms?

In accordance with the state of the presently known allegations only it exists obviously a problem of the maids passports which were confiscated by the wife of the Saudi prince.
__________________
ماجد (engl. translation: Majid)


Reply With Quote
  #247  
Old 08-03-2013, 12:42 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,261
If you are living and working in the US both the employer and the employee are subject to the laws of the US including its laws on employment and working conditions/pay/holidays/time off etc.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #248  
Old 08-03-2013, 01:26 PM
Imanmajed's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Posts: 1,289
Quote:
Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
If you are living and working in the US both the employer and the employee are subject to the laws of the US including its laws on employment and working conditions/pay/holidays/time off etc.
Well, that is understandable. But in the case of the wife of a Saudi prince, the maids and the Saudi family came to America temporarily. Both parties do not have U.S. passports and only a residence visas out of diplomatic reasons, as I know. The contract between employer and employees already existed in Saudi Arabia for some time. In such a case, does there a need to change the contract?? That would be unusual, but maybe legally more correct.

I assume that the Saudi prince hold a diplomatic status. But which status have the wife? Automatically she should then also hold a diplomatic passport. Who is the employer of the maids? The prince or his wife? Does this legally make a difference?

If the Saudi prince is a diplomat (this includes also his wife as a family member) and if the house was rented in his name, then the house including the land "belongs" temporary to the territory of the State which the Prince represents ("the property in the United States of a foreign state shall be immune from attachment, arrest and execution" - 28 U.S.C. § 1609). Means: Diplomats are given safe passage and are considered not susceptible to lawsuit or prosecution under the host country's laws, although they can still be extradited.

There is a diplomatic immunity from local employment and labor law when employing (foreign) staff. When the employer is a diplomat, the employees are in a legal limbo where the laws of neither the host country nor the diplomat's country are enforceable. The diplomat employer can act with virtual impunity and it is virtually impossible to enforce payment of wages or any local standards whatsoever.

A further point: The legal definition of abuse of domestic workers is socio-culturally influenced and varies from country to country for this reason. The jurisprudence must guarantee justice for both parties. Besides the fact of diplomatic immunity it is therefore difficult to find a single legal basis, which makes the whole negotiable in cross-border cases with involved diplomats. Please, correct me if I´m wrong.

Apologies, but there are a lot of unanswered issues for me. With my statements and comments I just wanted to illustrate the complexity of the case which media coverage let often unheeded. I'm afraid our discussion (including my remarks) exceeds the main theme of the thread many times over. So I think we should rather wait for the results of the investigation authorities than to continue to discuss the case of the saudi royal member. There is also the risk that the discussion here getting out of hand as a result of many unanswered questions.
__________________
ماجد (engl. translation: Majid)


Reply With Quote
  #249  
Old 08-03-2013, 02:03 PM
Al_bina's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: City, Kazakhstan
Posts: 5,611

If the Saudi Prince in question does in fact enjoys a diplomatic status, the US authorities have got serious proof of wrongdoing. As I have noted earlier, the district attorney would not have bothered with the case knowing that it could be dismissed later. It is always a headache to deal with Saudis.
__________________
"I never did mind about the little things" Amanda, "Point of No Return"
Reply With Quote
  #250  
Old 08-03-2013, 02:10 PM
Imanmajed's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Posts: 1,289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al_bina View Post

If the Saudi Prince in question does in fact enjoys a diplomatic status, the US authorities have got serious proof of wrongdoing. As I have noted earlier, the district attorney would not have bothered with the case knowing that it could be dismissed later.
Sometimes American court argue that abusive work (for instance housemaids with foreign treaties) is a commercial activity engaged in for personal profit, which falls outside the scope of a diplomat’s official functions, and therefore diplomatic immunity does not apply. But this is not clear from a legal point of view.
__________________
ماجد (engl. translation: Majid)


Reply With Quote
  #251  
Old 08-03-2013, 02:15 PM
Al_bina's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: City, Kazakhstan
Posts: 5,611

Why would the Prince in question allow his wife to be humiliated this way?
The discussion is doomed to run in circles. The difference in mentality is deep. So going back and forth with arguments is a futile exercise. People in Saudi Arabia and other Persian Gulf countries are very fond of saying, "When in Rome do as Romans do". The Princess in question should have followed this principle.
__________________
"I never did mind about the little things" Amanda, "Point of No Return"
Reply With Quote
  #252  
Old 08-03-2013, 02:27 PM
Imanmajed's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Posts: 1,289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al_bina View Post

Why would the Prince in question allow his wife to be humiliated this way?
Good question! No idea ........(a previous part of the sentence has been deleted by me after an important clue of blauerengel) to what extent the whole case actually exists in a diplomatic context. One thing is clear: She is not related by blood to the royal family of Saudi Arabia. As it´s already mentioned: There are too many inconsistencies and ambiguities which let "the discussion doomed to run in circles" .....
__________________
ماجد (engl. translation: Majid)


Reply With Quote
  #253  
Old 08-04-2013, 05:57 AM
blauerengel's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Vienna, Austria
Posts: 1,732
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al_bina View Post

If the Saudi Prince in question does in fact enjoys a diplomatic status, the US authorities have got serious proof of wrongdoing. As I have noted earlier, the district attorney would not have bothered with the case knowing that it could be dismissed later. It is always a headache to deal with Saudis.
That´s true,diplomats enjoy a lot of privileges and freedom,they are untouchable,no matter in which country they reside. In Vienna we also have difficulties with some diplomats who believe they are above the law-they don´t pay their parking tickets,disrespect labor laws etc.etc.
I remember there was a scandal about a case similar to the one we discuss in this thread, a diplomat from a non-EU country treated his staff as if they were his slaves, they got very little pay + had to work much more than it is allowed in our country. Unfortunately the problem is not limited to Saudis,we also have many ex-Soviet diplomats who are not respecting our laws and some local politicians who are corrupt too.
The only positive aspect is that we have an independent press that reports about such crimes and the victims are able to seek help & make use of our legal system that supports them.
__________________
Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it.
Avoiding danger in the long run is no safer than outright exposure.
Life is either a daring adventure,or nothing
. Helen Keller
Reply With Quote
  #254  
Old 08-04-2013, 06:06 AM
blauerengel's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Vienna, Austria
Posts: 1,732
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imanmajed View Post
Good question! No idea with whom the lady (who was only declared by the newspaper as Saudi Princess) is married by the royal family and to what extent the whole case actually exists in a diplomatic context.
Dear Majid,you would be much more knowledgeable if you would read carefully,because the name of the husband has already been mentioned before. The identity of the prince is no secret, if you want to take part in an informed discussion you should pay more attention to such subtle but important details
"Alayban is a wife of Saudi Arabian Prince Abdulrahman bin Nasser bin Abdulaziz al Saud, according to the Orange county prosecutors." (<-guardian)
__________________
Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it.
Avoiding danger in the long run is no safer than outright exposure.
Life is either a daring adventure,or nothing
. Helen Keller
Reply With Quote
  #255  
Old 08-04-2013, 11:46 AM
Imanmajed's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Posts: 1,289
Quote:
Originally Posted by blauerengel View Post
Dear Majid,you would be much more knowledgeable if you would read carefully,because the name of the husband has already been mentioned before. The identity of the prince is no secret, if you want to take part in an informed discussion you should pay more attention to such subtle but important details
You are absolutely right! Spot-on. Either I have overlooked it or simply forgotten. Thanks for reminding me! I've changed my former post #252. The shame should not be for eternity!
__________________
ماجد (engl. translation: Majid)


Reply With Quote
  #256  
Old 08-04-2013, 12:00 PM
Imanmajed's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Posts: 1,289
From the article below:

"Meshael Alayban, 42, who prosecutors said is one of the six wives of Saudi Prince Abdulrahman bin Nasser bin Abdulaziz al Saud, was released Thursday after posting the hefty bail amount a day after her arrest."

One of six wifes??? Weird! In Islam, only a maximum of four wives are allowed (at the same time). Either a typo, or some of the women are already divorced from the Prince. Maybe Mrs. Alayban is one of the divorced wifes. That would also explain why it can be possible that she has no diplomatic passport at the moment. On the other hand, not until last year Californien has adopted this appropriate law. It's quite possible that it was also decided to abjudicate the immunity of diplomats when they are suspected to have acted contrary to this law.

Prince Abdulrahman bin Nasser bin Abdulaziz al Saud is one of the grandsons of the late first Saudi king. The grandfather of Prince Adulrahman had founded the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and ruled the country from 1932 to 1953.

Saudi princess free on $5 million bail in Calif. | News , International | THE DAILY STAR
__________________
ماجد (engl. translation: Majid)


Reply With Quote
  #257  
Old 08-08-2013, 04:03 AM
blauerengel's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Vienna, Austria
Posts: 1,732
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imanmajed View Post
From the article below:

"Meshael Alayban, 42, who prosecutors said is one of the six wives of Saudi Prince Abdulrahman bin Nasser bin Abdulaziz al Saud, was released Thursday after posting the hefty bail amount a day after her arrest."

One of six wifes??? Weird! In Islam, only a maximum of four wives are allowed (at the same time). Either a typo, or some of the women are already divorced from the Prince. Maybe Mrs. Alayban is one of the divorced wifes. That would also explain why it can be possible that she has no diplomatic passport at the moment. On the other hand, not until last year Californien has adopted this appropriate law. It's quite possible that it was also decided to abjudicate the immunity of diplomats when they are suspected to have acted contrary to this law.

Prince Abdulrahman bin Nasser bin Abdulaziz al Saud is one of the grandsons of the late first Saudi king. The grandfather of Prince Adulrahman had founded the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and ruled the country from 1932 to 1953.

Saudi princess free on $5 million bail in Calif. | News , International | THE DAILY STAR
Well, we do not know the details of the marrital status of this Saudi Prince
He can only have 4 wives at the same time,but it might be that he had a temporary marriage with two of the women at a certain time or got divorced....
I wonder how the situation is handled in countries where polygamy is not allowed-how do you treat the second/3rd/4th wive who got married in a foreign country according to Islamic teachings?
If you allowed to have only one wife (or get divorced and remarry), would the second wife have a similar status to a girlfriend or be treated like a wife?
__________________
Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it.
Avoiding danger in the long run is no safer than outright exposure.
Life is either a daring adventure,or nothing
. Helen Keller
Reply With Quote
  #258  
Old 08-08-2013, 04:36 AM
Imanmajed's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Posts: 1,289
Quote:
Originally Posted by blauerengel View Post
I wonder how the situation is handled in countries where polygamy is not allowed-how do you treat the second/3rd/4th wive who got married in a foreign country according to Islamic teachings? If you allowed to have only one wife (or get divorced and remarry), would the second wife have a similar status to a girlfriend or be treated like a wife?
Regardless of where a Muslim lives, he must treat all his wives equally with the same respect. The second, third and fourth wife have the same status like the first wife. It should be not a difference between them.
__________________
ماجد (engl. translation: Majid)


Reply With Quote
  #259  
Old 09-18-2013, 01:44 PM
Rossina's Avatar
Heir Apparent
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: *****, India
Posts: 4,290
__________________
“God has given me many blessings. But the greatest of all is to be husband to Rania and father to our children Hussein, Iman, Salma and Hashem. They are the lights of my life”.
HM King Abdullah II
Reply With Quote
  #260  
Old 09-20-2013, 09:28 AM
Lenora's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 2,056
Saudi princess to be arraigned on human trafficking charges | Fox News
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
saudi princess, saudi royals


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 3 (0 members and 3 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"Princess: A True Story of Life Behind the Veil in Saudi Arabia" - Jean P Sasson 1992 Victoria1999 Royal Library 50 01-20-2014 01:32 AM
Are Royal born princesses more accepted? Lena Royal Chit Chat 66 06-19-2011 07:32 PM
Official Visit by the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia: April 5- April 7, 2006 mandyy Imperial Family of Japan 21 05-10-2006 04:26 AM
Saudi Arabia: Death of King Fahd 2005 Lady Jennifer Royal Family of Saudi Arabia 67 12-28-2005 05:24 AM




Additional Links
Popular Tags
birth charlene chris o'neill crown prince frederik crown prince haakon crown princess letizia crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria current events engagement fashion grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri habsburg hohenzollern infanta sofia jewellery jordan king abdullah ii king carl xvi gustav king constantine ii king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander luxembourg olympics ottoman palace pom prince albert prince albert ii prince carl philip prince constantijn prince felipe prince felix prince floris prince maurits prince pieter-christiaan princess alexia (2005 -) princess anita princess ariane princess beatrix princess catharina-amalia princess charlene princess laurentien princess letizia princess mabel princess madeleine princess margriet princess mary princess of asturias queen anne-marie queen letizia queen mathilde queen maxima queen paola queen rania queen silvia queen sofia royal russia sofia hellqvist spain state visit sweden wedding



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:13 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]