Death of King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz Al Saud: January 23, 2015


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Rudolph.. thats simply WRONG..

Westminster Abbey has a longstanding tradition of lowering the flag to half-mast when EACH foreign monarch dies. HMQ issued no such order..specifically for King Abdullah [unless YOU know better ?]
 
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^^^ Westminster Abbey is a Royal Peculiar under the DIRECT jurisdiction of the Queen, not the Church of England.
 
And 'its long standing tradition' is unaltered and continued in this instance.. as I say no NEW orders were issued for the late King.
 
I adore The Queen, but to have the flag at half mast for this man is just wrong.
 
^^^ Forum rules prevent me from commenting any further so I'll just have to leave it at that.

The BBC has a good article on it though
 
:previous:
Although some people may find it odd, it is the way it is done.
 
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Rudolph said:
Well 'official Britain' has certainly pulled out all the stops for the late King. The Queen has even ordered the flag over Westminster Abbey to half-mast to honour the king. Couldn't make it up.
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King abdullah was a reigning monarch, Fabiola (whom I guess you are referring to) was not, she was a former Queen who's husband who had been King 20 yeas earlier. Protocol wise there is a big difference between those positions! I'm sure when the Queen Mother died the Queen didn't in any way expect Saudi Arabia or any other country to treat it I. The same way they would the death of a reigning monarch.
 
Flags at half mast and fawning praise for King Abdullah's death sparks backlash | Daily Mail Online
There was anger and disbelief yesterday that flags were lowered to half mast over Buckingham Palace, Downing Street and the Houses of Parliament to mark the death of King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia – despite his country’s shameful record on human rights.

David Cameron, Barack Obama and Tony Blair were among those who made gushing tributes to the authoritarian and hugely powerful monarch of the world’s biggest oil producing country.

Buckingham Palace announced that Prince Charles would join Mr Cameron in flying to Saudi Arabia today to pay their condolences personally alongside a host of world leaders.

But the decision to lower flags to half mast over public buildings – also including Westminster Abbey – triggered a bitter backlash with widespread criticism that the monarch, who died aged 90, had done little to stop the regular public beheadings and floggings handed out by the authorities.

The leader of the Scottish Conservatives Ruth Davidson condemned the decision to fly flags at half mast as ‘a steaming pile of nonsense’. She added that it was a ‘stupid act on its own and a stupid precedent to set’.

Author Tom Holland wrote: ‘Hooray for British hypocrisy! Flags at 1/2-mast in Whitehall 4 the king of a country that lashes bloggers & executes converts 2 Christianity.’

And BBC presenter Andrew Neil tweeted: ‘Westminster Abbey flying half mast flag for dead King of Saudi Arabia, where Christianity is banned and possessing a Bible illegal.’
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Death of King Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz Al Saud : January 23, 2015

ROYAL NORWAY said:
I adore The Queen, but to have the flag at half mast for this man is just wrong.
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Only one word .. oil !! Until we no longer need it we all play the game


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community
 
Rudolph said:
Well 'official Britain' has certainly pulled out all the stops for the late King. The Queen has even ordered the flag over Westminster Abbey to half-mast to honour the king. Couldn't make it up.
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Oil and loot. Lots of gems, lots of oil. Not going to bite the tiger, now.
 
ROYAL NORWAY said:
I adore The Queen, but to have the flag at half mast for this man is just wrong.
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It has become a controversial topic. Even though according protocol dictates that the flag is being lowered for a desceased foreign monarch, there is a lot of critizism because of Saudi Arabia’s abuses of free speech, women’s rights and the country’s role as cradle of Islamist extremism.
Prince Charles and PM fly to Saudi | UK news | The Guardian
 
The flags have been lowered to half-mast here is Australia as well, not just in the UK.


In the UK it also hasn't only been done on buildings associated with the monarch but also at Whitehall, the home of the parliament.


Protocol rules say that they are lowered for the death of a Head of State of a friendly nation.
 
Whilst i'm sure ALL of us would prefer Saudi Arabia as a cuddly, liberal democracy, with full Human rights AND kindness to animals.. the reality is that [HARSH as the regime is], it is the most powerful bulwark against chaotic extremism in the Arab world.
Isolating them would be disastrous, and deposing the House of Saud even worse [have we not learned our lesson in the chaos we have wrought in Iraq, after the jettisoning of Saddam Hussein ?].

Sadly pragmatism is what is required in the tinder box of Middle Eastern diplomacy, and offending the Saudi's just to feel good about ourselves and our values would be a profound error of judgement.

So we 'bite the bullet', observe the proprieties, but inwardly feel rupugnance for this autocracy, and its treatment of those who wish to change it.
 
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Duke of Marmalade said:
It has become a controversial topic. Even though according protocol dictates that the flag is being lowered for a desceased foreign monarch, there is a lot of critizism because of Saudi Arabia’s abuses of free speech, women’s rights and the country’s role as cradle of Islamist extremism.
Prince Charles and PM fly to Saudi | UK news | The Guardian
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Not to mention his persecution of Christians, which makes it even more ironic that a flag should be flown at half mast over Westminster Abbey, the most iconic Christian temple in England.
 
For the Netherlands King Willem-Alexander and the minister of foreign affairs will attend the funeral. The two largest opposition parties have criticism and claim not understand why the king has to go to the funeral of a dictator:

Koning en minister Koenders naar Saoedi-Arabië - kritiek uit Kamer - nrc.nl

I am surtethat Foreign Affairs wanted the king to go, but after the beer-drinking with Putin last year it is natural that some have doubts.

In English:

Dutch king, foreign minister in Saudi Arabia to pay respects

January 24, 2015; King Willem-Alexander and foreign minister Bert Koenders are in Saudi Arabia on Saturday to take pay their respects following the death of king Abdullah last week. The Dutch government send its condolences to the Saudi government on Friday. The king died on Thursday night at the age of 90 from a lung infection and was buried in a simple ceremony on Friday.

Read more at DutchNews.nl: Dutch king, foreign minister in Saudi Arabia to pay respects http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archiv...minister-in-saudi-arabia-to-pay-respects.php/
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wyevale said:
Whilst i'm sure ALL of us would prefer Saudi Arabia as a cuddly, liberal democracy, with full Human rights AND kindness to animals.. the reality is that [HARSH as the regime is], it is the most powerful bulwark against chaotic extremism in the Arab world.
Isolating them would be disastrous, and deposing the House of Saud even worse [have we not learned our lesson in the chaos we have wrought in Iraq, after the jettisoning of Saddam Hussein ?].

Sadly pragmatism is what is required in the tinder box of Middle Eastern diplomacy, and offending the Saudi's just to feel good about ourselves and our values would be a profound error of judgement.

So we 'bite the bullet', observe the proprieties, but inwardly feel rupugnance for this autocracy, and its treatment of those who wish to change it.
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I have to agree with you there. We have to look at the bigger picture beyond oil and the controversial way in which the country is run. I wish things could be different in Saudi Arabia, but they are not and one must indeed try to be pragmatic.

It is clear that protocol requires a flag to be flown at half mast for the death of an overseas monarch. It is not a political symbol and in fact should be seen to transcend politics. Fortunately, a monarch dying is a rare thing and so seeing a flag at half mast at such a time is not often seen - and so the proper reason it is flown that way is forgotten and people assume it is done for the oil etc!
 
People protesting because royals visit a country where death penalties are enforced, should protest too when these royals visit the United States of America, China, Japan, Indonesia, etc. In all these countries the death penalty is executed.

About beheading, it was only in 1982 (!) that my country -France- decided to end the use of the guillotine. That machine was for the last time used in 1976 and 1977: four people were beheaded. I do not recall any protests when Queen Juliana or Queen Elizabeth visited or received the French President.
 
Duc_et_Pair said:
People protesting because royals visit a country where death penalties are enforced, should protest too when these royals visit the United States of America, China, Japan, Indonesia, etc. In all these countries the death penalty is executed.

About beheading, it was only in 1982 (!) that my country -France- decided to end the use of the guillotine. That machine was for the last time used in 1976 and 1977: four people were beheaded. I do not recall any protests when Queen Juliana or Queen Elizabeth visited or received the French President.
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Strictly speaking, capital punishment was only completely abolished in the UK after the Human Rights Act 1998 came into force, although executions for civilian offenses (US spelling) had already been outlawed before that and capital sentences were possible only for certain military offenses in time of war.

Beheading itself was abandoned as a method of execution in the UK in 1973, but hanging remained possible until 1998. At the time when beheading was abolished, the only civilian offenses to which it applied were, I believe, espionage, treason, and piracy. Capital punishment for murder was abolished in 1965.
 
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I suppose that there are more issues with this regime than just the death penalty.

***
Amnesty International in The Netherlands were actually not negative about the visit and hope that the minister of foreign affairs will open a dialogue about human rights during a next visit.

The prime minister defended the decision to send the king, saying it was part of the broader foreign affairs approach of The Netherlands & named the delegation appropriate. The RVD added that we need a dialogue with SA to talk about fighting IS and to talk about human rights.

Kritiek op bezoek koning en Koenders aan Saoedi-Arabië | Inhuldiging Willem-Alexander | de Volkskrant
 
As expected, Crown Prince Naruhito will pay a visit to Saudi Arabia to offer condolences.
Russia’s Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev, Britain’s Prime Minister David Cameron, French President Francois Hollande and Japan’s Crown Prince Naruhito are set to visit Saudi Arabia on Saturday and Sunday to offer condolences. US President Barack Obama is to cut short a visit to India and travel to the Kingdom to offer his condolences to Saudi Arabia’s new leaders.
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Saudis pledge allegiance to new King, crown princes « ASHARQ AL-AWSAT
 
A 90 year leader of a country died but some people are objecting when other foreign leaders decide to pay their respects.

How far do we look to see if a country/leader violated human rights?

The 1940s, the 1960s, the 1980s, 2000s or last year?

It this a case of do as I say not as I do?
 
Mbruno said:
Russia actually produces more oil than Saudi Arabia. Nevertheless, I doubt any of the above heads of government/state or crown princes would show up if Putin suddenly passed away.
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President Putin is neither an elderly man nor reigning Monarch. Despite significant differences between the countries, Russian Federation is represented at the highest possible level in a timely manner. The oil price fluctuations may affect the kingdom more deeply than Russia, which has weapon exports and space programme for additional revenues.
President Putin's disinclination to attend in person is understandable though.
 
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Queen Camilla said:
A 90 year leader of a country died but some people are objecting when other foreign leaders decide to pay their respects.

How far do we look to see if a country/leader violated human rights?

The 1940s, the 1960s, the 1980s, 2000s or last year?

It this a case of do as I say not as I do?
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I believe there is a huge difference between sporadic accusations of human rights violations (e.g. American use of torture during the "War on Terror") and human rights violation being systematically and inherently incorporated into the legal framework of a state, as it is the case in Saudi Arabia.

The topic is controversial and, in the end, it boils down to the difficult question of to what extent state sovereignty allows a country to keep a legal system (in the case of Saudi Arabia and other Islamic countries, an orthodox interpretation of Sharia law) that is at odds with the Western concept of human rights as developed in the past 200 years or so.
 
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