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  #81  
Old 01-24-2015, 10:59 AM
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King Felipe of Spain

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  #82  
Old 01-24-2015, 11:16 AM
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People protesting because royals visit a country where death penalties are enforced, should protest too when these royals visit the United States of America, China, Japan, Indonesia, etc. In all these countries the death penalty is executed.

About beheading, it was only in 1982 (!) that my country -France- decided to end the use of the guillotine. That machine was for the last time used in 1976 and 1977: four people were beheaded. I do not recall any protests when Queen Juliana or Queen Elizabeth visited or received the French President.
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  #83  
Old 01-24-2015, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
People protesting because royals visit a country where death penalties are enforced, should protest too when these royals visit the United States of America, China, Japan, Indonesia, etc. In all these countries the death penalty is executed.

About beheading, it was only in 1982 (!) that my country -France- decided to end the use of the guillotine. That machine was for the last time used in 1976 and 1977: four people were beheaded. I do not recall any protests when Queen Juliana or Queen Elizabeth visited or received the French President.
Strictly speaking, capital punishment was only completely abolished in the UK after the Human Rights Act 1998 came into force, although executions for civilian offenses (US spelling) had already been outlawed before that and capital sentences were possible only for certain military offenses in time of war.

Beheading itself was abandoned as a method of execution in the UK in 1973, but hanging remained possible until 1998. At the time when beheading was abolished, the only civilian offenses to which it applied were, I believe, espionage, treason, and piracy. Capital punishment for murder was abolished in 1965.
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  #84  
Old 01-24-2015, 01:35 PM
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I suppose that there are more issues with this regime than just the death penalty.

***
Amnesty International in The Netherlands were actually not negative about the visit and hope that the minister of foreign affairs will open a dialogue about human rights during a next visit.

The prime minister defended the decision to send the king, saying it was part of the broader foreign affairs approach of The Netherlands & named the delegation appropriate. The RVD added that we need a dialogue with SA to talk about fighting IS and to talk about human rights.

Kritiek op bezoek koning en Koenders aan Saoedi-Arabië | Inhuldiging Willem-Alexander | de Volkskrant
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  #85  
Old 01-24-2015, 02:19 PM
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As expected, Crown Prince Naruhito will pay a visit to Saudi Arabia to offer condolences.
Quote:
Russia’s Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev, Britain’s Prime Minister David Cameron, French President Francois Hollande and Japan’s Crown Prince Naruhito are set to visit Saudi Arabia on Saturday and Sunday to offer condolences. US President Barack Obama is to cut short a visit to India and travel to the Kingdom to offer his condolences to Saudi Arabia’s new leaders.
Saudis pledge allegiance to new King, crown princes « ASHARQ AL-AWSAT
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  #86  
Old 01-24-2015, 02:23 PM
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Prince Charles and David Cameron arrive in Saudi Arabia to pay their respects to King Abdullah despite backlash at home over ruler who oversaw death by stoning for adultery and regular beheadings
Prince Charles and David Cameron arrive in Saudi Arabia to pay their respects to King Abdullah despite backlash at home over ruler who oversaw death by stoning for adultery and regular beheadings | Daily Mail Online
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  #87  
Old 01-24-2015, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Al_bina View Post
As expected, Crown Prince Naruhito will pay a visit to Saudi Arabia to offer condolences. Saudis pledge allegiance to new King, crown princes « ASHARQ AL-AWSAT
Russia actually produces more oil than Saudi Arabia. Nevertheless, I doubt any of the above heads of government/state or crown princes would show up if Putin suddenly passed away.
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  #88  
Old 01-24-2015, 02:36 PM
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A 90 year leader of a country died but some people are objecting when other foreign leaders decide to pay their respects.

How far do we look to see if a country/leader violated human rights?

The 1940s, the 1960s, the 1980s, 2000s or last year?

It this a case of do as I say not as I do?
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  #89  
Old 01-24-2015, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Russia actually produces more oil than Saudi Arabia. Nevertheless, I doubt any of the above heads of government/state or crown princes would show up if Putin suddenly passed away.
President Putin is neither an elderly man nor reigning Monarch. Despite significant differences between the countries, Russian Federation is represented at the highest possible level in a timely manner. The oil price fluctuations may affect the kingdom more deeply than Russia, which has weapon exports and space programme for additional revenues.
President Putin's disinclination to attend in person is understandable though.
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  #90  
Old 01-24-2015, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Camilla View Post
A 90 year leader of a country died but some people are objecting when other foreign leaders decide to pay their respects.

How far do we look to see if a country/leader violated human rights?

The 1940s, the 1960s, the 1980s, 2000s or last year?

It this a case of do as I say not as I do?
I believe there is a huge difference between sporadic accusations of human rights violations (e.g. American use of torture during the "War on Terror") and human rights violation being systematically and inherently incorporated into the legal framework of a state, as it is the case in Saudi Arabia.

The topic is controversial and, in the end, it boils down to the difficult question of to what extent state sovereignty allows a country to keep a legal system (in the case of Saudi Arabia and other Islamic countries, an orthodox interpretation of Sharia law) that is at odds with the Western concept of human rights as developed in the past 200 years or so.
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  #91  
Old 01-24-2015, 03:29 PM
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King Felipe and King Salman

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King Felipe, King Salman, King of Jordan, King Willem Alexander and King Carl Gustaf

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  #92  
Old 01-24-2015, 05:05 PM
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May he rest in Peace,and i hope things will be better with the new King.
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  #93  
Old 01-24-2015, 05:23 PM
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So did the Prince of Wales, CP Frederik of Denmark and CP Haakon of Norway meet the new King of Saudi Arabia? Or did they meet the new crown prince of Arabia?
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  #94  
Old 01-24-2015, 05:29 PM
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King Salman with Prince Moulay rachid
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  #95  
Old 01-24-2015, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I believe there is a huge difference between sporadic accusations of human rights violations (e.g. American use of torture during the "War on Terror") and human rights violation being systematically and inherently incorporated into the legal framework of a state, as it is the case in Saudi Arabia.

The topic is controversial and, in the end, it boils down to the difficult question of to what extent state sovereignty allows a country to keep a legal system (in the case of Saudi Arabia and other Islamic countries, an orthodox interpretation of Sharia law) that is at odds with the Western concept of human rights as developed in the past 200 years or so.
Slavery was still widespread in the Western world until...?
When were black Americans living in the South given the same Western human rights as whites?
South African under Western rule was not in violation of any human rights?
Remind me about the Native American children in the U.S and Canada...
Shall the West colonization of Asia, Africa, North & South American, Middle East, Australia, New Zealand and the Pacific and the treatment of the native people of these regions be ignored because it happened...?

What exactly is the cutoff date and why is the Western way the right way?
200 years?
Which of the above human rights violations cease to exist in the Western ruled countries?

Isn't genocide worse than Sharia law?
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  #96  
Old 01-24-2015, 06:47 PM
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Point well taken. I often find myself annoyed by the rantings of the arrogant. Our (western) way, our rules. It is just plain wrong. While I am no fan of Sharia Law I think that attempts to westernise other countries is arrogant, and short-sighted.

I wish people would cast their minds back to countries that were "helped" to change the way they run their countries to that of the great god, "Democracy". Governments have fallen and puppet "democracies" installed, but they have no power other than that of the gun.

You will find many have fallen into civil war and, in many cases, have returned to a tribal system. Democracy is not their heritage, it is that of the western world and, over time I have come to believe that each has it's own merits and it's own traditions. It's time we learnt to respect them. Not agree with them, but to respect them as sovereign nations.

We can lobby for civil rights at the UN, but we shouldn't be surprised if they do not take a bit of notice. The US is unapologetic about their use of the "Death Penalty", so why would we have any expectation of being heard, let alone changing their legal systems?
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  #97  
Old 01-24-2015, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Camilla View Post
Slavery was still widespread in the Western world until...?
When were black Americans living in the South given the same Western human rights as whites?
South African under Western rule was not in violation of any human rights?
Remind me about the Native American children in the U.S and Canada...
Shall the West colonization of Asia, Africa, North & South American, Middle East, Australia, New Zealand and the Pacific and the treatment of the native people of these regions be ignored because it happened...?

What exactly is the cutoff date and why is the Western way the right way?
200 years?
Which of the above human rights violations cease to exist in the Western ruled countries?

Isn't genocide worse than Sharia law?

Slavery was outlawed in the British Empire in 1834; it was abolished in the United States in 1865. By comparison, slavery was only officially abolished in Saudi Arabia in 1962, again under Western pressure.

Sharia law BTW does not explicitly prohibit slavery, although the Islamic view is that slavery is an exceptional condition that can only apply to a restricted class of persons. Arab countries actually engaged in slave trade (google "Arab slave trade") for centuries, long before Europeans began the Atlantic slave trade. As of today, modern slavery is still reported to exist in Muslim African countries like Sudan, Chad, Mali, etc. , although that practice is actually illegal.

Frankly, I don't think we can compare events that took place two or four hundred years ago like slavery or the genocide of Native Americans with present-day violation of human rights in Saudi Arabia. Human rights were never a given in the Western civilization from its inception. Instead, as I pointed out in the my earlier post, the Western concept of democracy and human rights emerged as part of a long historical process that was faster in some countries and slower in others. In any case, it is undeniable that the West has moved ahead considerably in that process. All we want to see is similar progress in countries like Saudi Arabia. You may call that "arrogance" or lack of respect for "indigeneous cultures" if you want to. I personally prefer to see it as plain common sense.
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  #98  
Old 01-24-2015, 08:34 PM
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And on that note, let's end this OT discussion and let's focus on the topic of this thread.
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  #99  
Old 01-25-2015, 12:09 AM
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King Carl Gustaf arriving to Riyadh yesterday
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  #100  
Old 01-25-2015, 01:02 AM
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The following is the photos of royals visiting Saudi Arabia to attend the mourning ceremonies.

https://ru-royalty.livejournal.com/2741422.html
originally posted by kapenot88
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