Candice Cohen-Agnine and Prince Sattam Al Saud: Custody and Death Cases

[blauerengel]

Equal rights under the law do not exist in the Kingdom.

Unfortunately you are right,anyone who says that women have the SAME rights in Saudi Arabia as men are wrong.They don´t even have the same rights on the paper,in Europe we do have the same rights on the paper,just sometimes we have to fight and argue to receive what is fair&just.The old traditions and misconceptions that keep men from accepting women as equal partners are still present(even though Prophet Mohammed was quite a feminist for his time-allowing his wife to fight with him and praising mothers and women´s work for the society which a lot of men completely forget and ignore!)

I also wanted to quote a witness who has known the mother of the child:
"She was a woman who was a real fighter and a very positive person, and plus, there were plans to see [her daughter] Aya in mid-September. That was her greatest motivation of all."

Supposed she was really depressed,she could not have fought such a hard legal war to win back her child-the pressure must have been enormous and I´m sure the Saudis tried to intimidate her or give her money to stop her.This lady had an enormous will and she doesn´t show any signs of depression-if she did,she would have killed herself before she won the custody case.Of course none of us was present and knows all the details but to me the case is quite clear.

I hope that a lot of Saudi&Muslim men,especially those with power&money will stand up and say "Shame on you for treating the mother of your child so badly!"

I don´t understand why the Prince could not make an arrangement with the lady like a lot of other men with multiple wives or children born out of the wedlock do.Hopefully the girl will be accepted and loved by her stepmother!

 

[Imanmajed]

Sorry to say but the reality is even more shocking: Everywhere in the world women have NOT the SAME rights as men! It is estimated that one in four women (regardless of where the women live) suffers from male-dominated violence and humiliation.

In all countries can be found disadvantage of women. Not only in the purely legal sphere. Sometimes the disadvantages of women are hidden cleverly (by male): in the exploitation of the female body, in the professional equality, in the care of children and the domestic fields, with government support, in the allocation of key positions in politics, in health care, in school education, at ......

The progress on equality of women and men in western countries is still not complete. Regardless of the origin or the religious beliefs of a man: Only a mean man would demean a woman. But a noble man would honor a woman everytime in his life. Perhaps one must encourage women to educate their sons to noble, honorable men.

Often depression remains undetected for a long time. Depression passes through different stages and can reach very different characteristics. The ex-wife of the Saudi prince has taken the legal route in France, in order to secure the custody of her child. But what good is it in Saudi Arabia? Legally, the decision of court in France have no influence on the ability to get her child back in Saudia. I can only guess that she may have realized. Indeed she has triumphed in a section but her victory is irrelevant to the Saudi laws. Maybe that was the reason for her - coupled with pressure or/and threats of her ex-husband and a depression- to commit suicide. But we don´t know in the end.

In summary, it would be become an unmanageable situation for mother and daughter, even if the mother has the legal permission of both countries to raise her child. Her daughter is a member of the ruling family of Saudi Arabia. That alone would have meant that she and her daughter could never have been released to pursue their own path without consultation with the royal family and people that protect the safety of the young lady abroad. She would have to endure to be constantly under the eyes of people who belong to her ex-husband. A normal childhood is impossible under these circumstances. A possible new relationship of the mother with a other man (non Saudi royal) would be also impossible. Such things you would have to consider before you start a relationship with an Saudi prince. No matter such a relationship runs, the life of the non-royal lady will never again be the same as before.

Ultimately it was not a question of gender or womens rights, but rather a question of the status of the ex-husband and the particular circumstances that accompanied this former relationship.

 

[COUNTESS]

You are right that starting a relationship with a Saudi Prince was a foolish occurrence. She should have left when she was pregnant and never seen him, again. Who knows what she thought. Most people who knew her said she would never have committed suicide. She loved this child and the Paris Courts awarded her custody. Not that a child stolen and hidden in the SA would have been humanely turned over to her mother. To this man she is just a possession. She deserves better. All women deserve better. Yes, there are problems for women all over, but not like the Muslim nations, especially SA. SA is a prison, of sorts, for women, without walls and bars, but their choices are limited and any man can take those choices away.

 

[blauerengel]

Sorry that I repeat myself,but in the heat of the argument some people may have overread this. I also wanted to quote a witness who has known the mother of the child:

"She was a woman who was a real fighter and a very positive person, and plus, there were plans to see [her daughter] Aya in mid-September. That was her greatest motivation of all."

This was said by somebody who has known the woman in person!The witness knows much more about the dead mother than we do from reading all these articles and it should be taken seriously.It really pisses me off when the witnesses are not treated with repsect and what they are saying is completely ignored.There are often cases were crimes could be prevented if people just LISTENED and don´t look away or pretend not to notice.

No matter if she was foolish falling in love with a prince,especially with a Saudi prince,the deceased mother hasn´t been treated nice and I don´t understand why you,dear Imanmajed don´t see that.Maybe you need to be born as a woman to understand what it means if your child is taken away-it was her only child and the prince had another wive with whom he could have as many children as he wants or take as much as four wives.Of course the child should be able to see the father,but they could have reached an agreement just like other parents from so-called sandwich families do.Sheikh Mohammed from Dubai has a lot of children with unknown number of wives but none of them had to fight for their children or was treated in such an immoral way.
I don´t understand why you,who is so much concerned about the rights of women,doesn´t say anything negative about the conduct of the prince -he KIDNAPPED the daughter!He could have talked to the woman with a lawyer,offered her an agreement that they can both share custody and see their daughter but he did none of this.Kidnapping people- no matter if you kidnap a stranger or somebody from your own family is ILLEGAL!

And yes,violence against women is present in many societies and many different ways but diagnosing a woman you have never met and who doesn´t show any signs of depression with a mental illness is quite harsh and also a form of non-active violence because if you say "He/she does have a mental illness" you say that they are not fully capable of their actions.

I will say it again-the parents could have reached a fair agreement if they both had the will to do so-and nobody wheter the woman was murdered or killed due to the stress-related illness which made her take too many anti-depressants the prince does have full responsibility for her death.

 

[Imanmajed]

... Not that a child stolen and hidden in the SA...

When you say, that the prince took away the child from his mother, then you raise the child to a possession. You are aware of it? Has one of the parents a greater right to that child? Maybe is it rather the case that a child has the right to both parents and no parent owns the exclusive rights to a child.

 

[blauerengel]

Sorry,you are defending a criminal-the Prince ignored the ruling of the French court,so you have to accept that some poeple get offended when the law is treated with disrespect.The prince has to follow the laws even if he is rich and belongs to a powerful family with a certain set of traditions and believes.If I was bathing topless in Dubai people would raise hell,but if a man is kidnapping his daughter,ignoring the law,killing a woman you defend him?You should really think deeply about who´s side you are taking,this is not about Islam vs. Western values or feminism vs patriarchy but basic human rights. No child should be taken from their mother unless she is in a state that she can´t look after them and nobody should be killed or forced into a suicide because he/she comes from a different class,has a different nationality or a different religion or doesn´t fit into one´s plans.
Like Princess Diana and Prince Charles the couple could have shared custody-it would have been difficult but if there is a will,there is a way.

 

[Imanmajed]

blauerengel, I see both sides and not just one. And I try to understand both attitudes of the parents. This understanding for both sides is not a assessment or a voting for a gender, but only the basis for further consideration.

Even a man hurts when someone takes away his child. It is as painful as the feeling of the mother. It's not just the woman who suffers from such an exclusion. A child belongs to both parents. Neither parent has the sole right to the child alone.

If you argue that he can still have more children with other women , you excludes that he has feelings for this one child. Also, I could return snappy that she also still could have had more children with another man. Right? You fiddling with unfeeling arguments.

Sheikh Mohammed is not the issue here, but he has certainly his relationships much better under control than Prince Sattam. However, there were also a suicide of a woman due to disputes over the children in the al Maktoum family. I fear that even ordinary families could be affected by such hopeless and desperate actions.

You said first: "....but diagnosing a woman you have never met ......is quite harsh and also a form of non-active violence. " Than you claim: "...the prince does have full responsibility for her death."

Is diagnosing a man you have never met not quite harsh and not a form of non-active violence?

If you read my posts, you will notice that I have spoken about his responsibility as well.

 

[blauerengel]

Maybe as a woman I am a little biased but I do believe that the Prince has done a lot of mistakes in this relationship and of course you are right-she could have married again and have a new child but what I was saying is that he had a family and a wife but she was alone and didn´t have any other boyfriend or husband.
After all he left her because she was not suitable for him so he should at least have shown her some kindness or fairness by allowing her to see her daughter.

And yes,I can say that the prince is responsible for her death-either directly or because he made her suffer so much that she had to take strong medicine which killed her.

 

[Imanmajed]

You can not kidnapped someone for whom you bear the responsibility because it is your own child. You can take the children with you. But that is due to the matter of parenting.

But I agree with you, that it is the best way to make a agreement that they can both share custody and see their daughter. This requires a willingness to negotiate and compromise. Maybe both or one of the two were not willing to do so.

 

[blauerengel]

Here´s another video with Candice-Cohen:interview une semaine d'enfer avec Candice Ahnine-Cohen - YouTube

 

[blauerengel]

I will ask you in a different way,Imanmajed:What would you do if your sister had a relationship with let´s say a German Catholic man and after they have a child he drops her becaus she is Muslim or because she doesn´t understand his culture and takes away your niece-she goes to court and receives the right to see her daughter but this man doesn´t let her see her child...what would you say?

Forgot to add-the man leaves your sister because he wants to marry a blonde,Catholic woman who is from the same social circle as he is.

 

[blauerengel]

You can not kidnapped someone for whom you bear the responsibility because it is your own child. You can take the children with you. But that is due to the matter of parenting.

But I agree with you, that it is the best way to make a agreement that they can both share custody and see their daughter. This requires a willingness to negotiate and compromise. Maybe both or one of the two were not willing to do so.

Sorry,laws are not made by intuiton or whims but it is a Federal offence if you kidnap children and it is also punishable if you don´t let the other parent see the child,but usually there are more men who have to fight & go to court to be able to see their children after a divorce.

To back up my claim please read this:http://www.austin-criminaldefensela...Blog/2012/June/Kidnapping-Your-Own-Child.aspx

 

[Imanmajed]

Sorry,you are defending a criminal-the Prince ignored the ruling of the French court,so you have to accept that some poeple get offended when the law is treated with disrespect.The prince has to follow the laws even if he is rich and belongs to a powerful family with a certain set of traditions and believes.If I was bathing topless in Dubai people would raise hell,but if a man is kidnapping his daughter,ignoring the law,killing a woman you defend him?You should really think deeply about who´s side you are taking,this is not about Islam vs. Western values or feminism vs patriarchy but basic human rights.No child should be taken from their mother unless she is in a state that she can´t look after them and nobody should be killed or forced into a suicide because he/she comes from a different class,has a different nationality or a different religion or doesn´t fit into one´s plans.
Like Princess Diana and Prince Charles the couple could have shared custody-it would have been difficult but if there is a will,there is a way.

Well, you're forgetting one important point. First of all, we have two totally different systems of law. Both systems intervene in the process, not only the French law. In Saudi law the father has sole custody of the child. So that he does not commit a crime if the child lives with him. He can automatically ignored French law, because he don´t live there nor is he a citizen of France. There is no agreement on simplification of such cases between France and SA. This means that custody should be awarded to the mother by a Saudi Arabian court too. Only than the prince become a criminal if he ignored the decision of the Saudi court. What I can accept is when you see, that two different negotiations must to be brought into conformity, before a valid and legal statement can assume.

 

[Imanmajed]

Sorry,laws are not made by intuiton or whims but it is a Federal offence if you kidnap children and it is also punishable if you don´t let the other parent see the child,but usually there are more men who have to fight & go to court to be able to see their children after a divorce.

To back up my claim please read this:Austin Criminal Lawyer | Kidnapping Your Own Child

What we do now, if this is a crime in your country but not in my country??? Which of us is more correct?

 

[blauerengel]

Well, you're forgetting one important point. First of all, we have two totally different systems of law. Both systems intervene in the process, not only the French law. In Saudi law the father has sole custody of the child. So that he does not commit a crime if the child lives with him. He can automatically ignored French law, because he don´t live there nor is he a citizen of France. There is no agreement on simplification of such cases between France and SA. This means that custody should be awarded to the mother by a Saudi Arabian court too. Only than the prince become a criminal if he ignored the decision of the Saudi court. What I can accept is when you see, that two different negotiations must to be brought into conformity, before a valid and legal statement can assume.

I believe it is important to know a)where was the girl born&her citizenship
b)where exactly the girl was kidnapped
c)even if he didn´t want to accept the French law (which,as a matter of fact you can´t chose-you are judged in the country where the case/crime has happened and not by your own choice because you prefer a certain legal system) he should have allowed a fair court hearing to arrange the matters in a Saudi Arabian court
d)as far as I know the investigation of her death has not been closed until now so we can´t say anything about that

 

[blauerengel]

What we do now, if this is a crime in your country but not in my country??? Which of us is more correct?

It is always judged by the country you are in-supposed you are married to a German woman in Berlin you can´t just take your child with you,you are also not allowed to have multiple wives because polygamy is illegal in Europe.
I believe in your country you could pretty much do as you please-marry up to four wives and take the child away from her mother! (But guess who would come and get you!I would send you a poisoned Sacher cake and make sure you don´t forget your responsibilities towards your wife and child)

 

[Imanmajed]

I will ask you in a different way,Imanmajed:What would you do if your sister had a relationship with let´s say a German Catholic man and after they have a child he drops her becaus she is Muslim or because she doesn´t understand his culture and takes away your niece-she goes to court and receives the right to see her daughter but this man doesn´t let her see her child...what would you say?

Let we the religious impossibility of this case aside, then: First I would have to tell her, that it is the right of the father to live with his child in Germany. She should know that the kid belongs to both countries and both families. Second I would encourage her to find a mutually acceptable solution together with the father and his family. If this is impossible, then I would tell her that she has to go to the German family court and search for her right in the country where her child live with the father currently. If all that fails, then God has chosen a different path for my sister and her child. We have to accept what happened if we love the child and trust in God's foresight.

 

[Imanmajed]

It is always judged by the country you are in-supposed you are married to a German woman in Berlin you can´t just take your child with you,you are also not allowed to have multiple wives because polygamy is illegal in Europe.

In family matters it is always judged by the country in which the involved persons have the center of their lifes. Legal aspects of the country, whose citizens are involved in the family law case will be also observed if the persons constantly living in different countries. A polygamous marriage in Europe is possible, but only one wife will be legal (acknowledged under law).

 

[Imanmajed]

But guess who would come and get you!I would send you a poisoned Sacher cake and make sure you don´t forget your responsibilities towards your wife and child

WOW, WOW, WOW, that's tough! Please, no.... do not send me a poisoned Sacher cake. I have a better suggestion: Let us eat a healthy Sacher cake together, drink an Arabic coffee (or tea as you like) and talk in peace above all else........Wait a minute! Although actually we have no children together, right? And if I'm not mistaken, we're not even married. Right? Okay, it's time to calm down..... . For you:

 

[Imanmajed]

I believe it is important to know a)where was the girl born&her citizenship
b)where exactly the girl was kidnapped
c)even if he didn´t want to accept the French law (which,as a matter of fact you can´t chose-you are judged in the country where the case/crime has happened and not by your own choice because you prefer a certain legal system) he should have allowed a fair court hearing to arrange the matters in a Saudi Arabian court
d)as far as I know the investigation of her death has not been closed until now so we can´t say anything about that

Correct: We have to be patient until the investigation of her death will be closed. Now we can only assume what should be a possible explanation of her death. At the moment, both are innocent until the contrary is proved.

 

[Imanmajed]

Thanks for the inspiring and lively debate. All of your posts created a enlightening discussion about the whole case. Have a nice day or night!

 

[COUNTESS]

A Saudi Prince can buy an outcome to any investigation, especially in France. No father can care for a child like a mother, especially a father who has several wives and umpteen children. This child will never have the love her mother would have given her. So, as you have stated, the child's welfare should have been the biggest concern, not the father's ego.

 

[blauerengel]

Countess,I believe that the French court ruled that the mother be able to see her child but the Prince ignored it.He didn´t buy the court,he just didn´t follow the court decision which by itself is a blatant act of disrespect towards our legal system.If you don´t agree with a judicial decision you have to appeal against a conviction.

 

[Imanmajed]

A Saudi Prince can buy an outcome to any investigation, especially in France. No father can care for a child like a mother, especially a father who has several wives and umpteen children. This child will never have the love her mother would have given her. So, as you have stated, the child's welfare should have been the biggest concern, not the father's ego.

Allow me to modify your words a little: No one can care for a child like a mother and a father. The child's welfare should have been the biggest concern, not the father's or the mothers ego. Selfishness can be found in mothers also. I'm not saying that this would have been true to Mrs. Candice, but it's a one-sided view, always to proclaim only the right of the mother. And definitely this child will have the love of her father and his big family. Maybe this is the best for the girl.

 

[Imanmajed]

Countess,I believe that the French court ruled that the mother be able to see her child but the Prince ignored it.He didn´t buy the court,he just didn´t follow the court decision which by itself is a blatant act of disrespect towards our legal system.If you don´t agree with a judicial decision you have to appeal against a conviction.

Why Prince Sattam should follow the French court decision? He and the child are not living in France, he and the girl are not nationals and between both countries a agreement in this matter does not exist. It can also be defined as follows: It is a "blatant act of disrespect" towards the Saudi right, which has awarded the child´s custody to the father. What I meant is: The mother should have to sue for custody of her child in both countries. She had sued only in France but this is not enough in such a binational issue. Judicial decisions of both countries are necessary. A single national judgment of a state alone is not effective in such family cases, if you want to resolve the matter definitively.

 

[Imanmajed]

If it comes to various court decisions, then you can forget both judicial statements. Both judgments (France and SA) would then have no effect or would can be applied only to the scope of the country where the decision was made. Such family law cases between states without agreements are extremely difficult to handle.

Unfortunately, it's too late for that. Now can only be examined yet whether Mrs. Candice has killed herself or whether someone else has committed murder or/and whether a third party negligence is present.

 

[blauerengel]

Imanmajed,I don´t think you are as naive as your statement makes us believe.The mother would hava had no chance in a Saudi court-
1)she´s female
2)she is Jewish-a fact that can´t be overrated in this case because if she had been Muslim the whole relationship would have been completely different and she might have been accepted by the Royal family.Her faith was one of the main obstacles,I am sure that you know how much Israel and Jews are hated in KSA and Sheikh Hamdan from Dubai also wrote a poem where he tells us how much he despises Zionism.(Candice-Cohen converted to Islam to fit into her new family and as a gesture of goodwill towards her husband).
When you take Jordan for instance-two of King Husseins wives were not Arabic but nevertheless accepted and made Queen.(Noor had family relations to Arabs because her father was a Syrian from Aleppo & she´s practicing Islam but Toni Gardiner was British as far as I know.)
3)she is an ordinary citizen but the Prince a member of the RF and the RF decides the laws...
4)they were not married

So to tell her to go to a saudi court is like telling somebody who´s house is burning to stop it by pouring some oil on it.

and again:If you don´t agree with a judicial decision you have to appeal against a conviction with a lawyer. If you just do what you like& ignore the court judgement-even IF you are right,you are acting against the law.

 

[Imanmajed]

You speak out of what I thought. I did not set obvious, but remain at a general theory. But it is true what you say. Usually the father always get custody of his child in KSA (even if he had a Saudi ex-wife). Exception: the man can not take care for the child due to illness, personal absence, leaving Islam, delinquency and so on. Since both were not married her chance is less than zero, to get the custody for her child in KSA. She also risked an indictment because extramarital relations are forbidden and punished in KSA. Probably this was crucial factors for committed suicide.

To the question of religion: It is not necessary to change her religion, unless she wanted to do it out of free will. Muslim man can marry jewish or christian ladies as well as muslim women.

 

[Imanmajed]

3)she is an ordinary citizen but the Prince a member of the RF and the RF decides the laws...

Don´t she know that, before she get pregnant from him? (Please do not throw with poisoned austrian cakes towards me now.... )

and again:If you don´t agree with a judicial decision you have to appeal against a conviction with a lawyer. If you just do what you like& ignore the court judgement-even IF you are right,you are acting against the law.

Thats correct if you live in country, where the decision was made. But which is the impact of judicial decision in family cases, if the person is not resident in the country? Which French judges want to fly to KSA and visit the Prince to enforce their decision abroad - against the Saudi law?

In family law cases that exceed national boundaries, single judgements of only one state are for the rubbish bin, if not all parties reside in a country and/or show no willingness to find a consensus.

 

[Lee-Z]

I don't know all the particulars of the case, but from what i read on wiki and in your discussion here, my question would be:

why was this case tried in France and not in KSA (where i think the alleged kidnap occured)?
to the ignorant bystander (=me) it seems that the difference in laws in both countries is totally significant in this case...

the most important thing ofcourse is that the child is well taken care of and i don't think there has been any proof in this thread that that's not the case...