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  #121  
Old 03-06-2013, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by blauerengel View Post
I did not know that the US recognizes religious weddings-in Austria you need a civil marriage (which is usually a very plain event,you just have to sign the papers and than the civil servant will say a few words about marriage or love)-most people chose a civil marriage and than a religious one in a church or a fancy wedding party with lots of guests and celebration.
If you only have a religious wedding,it is as if you have never married at all.Which means that you have no right to inherit,get alimony or be allowed to enter your partners flat after he has died among other things.
So you can get married only religious but it is only a promise of love without any legal consequences.
This is fascinating to me! So, in Austria, if you want your religious marriage to be legal, you would have to have two weddings? What a pain! I can see why most just opt for a civil service.

In the US, religious leaders (Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, etc) are granted powers by the State when they are ordained. The couple goes and applies for a Marriage License. Once they have the License, they can get married at the court in a civil ceremony or go to their place of worship and have the ceremony there. In the civil wedding, the clerk or judge will sign the license. In the religious service, the religious leader will sign the license. The license is then mailed in to the county clerk's office to be copied and registered and then the original document is returned to the couple in the mail.
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  #122  
Old 03-06-2013, 03:45 PM
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It depends on what you mean by "Westerners". Perhaps we need a European culture & an American culture thread to go with your UAE culture thread. In general, the culture and values of Europeans and Americans can, at times, be very different.
Maybe I have generalized too much. My mistake! But my analysis were based on this case and the lifestyle in France only. To my knowledge, there isnīt any particular form of public disgrace in a relationship without marriage in France. Rather, it is the preferred choice of many young French women.

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Americans tend to be more conservative, especially in the Southern states. In my community, living together without being married is frowned upon. Having a child without being married could be quite scandalous.
Surprisingly, I did not know that America is so conservative in some parts of the country. Good to know!
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  #123  
Old 03-06-2013, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by blauerengel View Post
... about dangerous men.....
I need a definition of that!

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As we know now,she has been married by Islamic standards - a wedding bow IMO is a promise to the partner that you want to stay together and have a family. Thatīs why I get furious when you say that Cohen-Agnine got "foolishly" pregnant. If you are married-no matter under what ritus,it means that your relationship is a more stable one and not just a romantic adventure.
Maybe that was also Mrs. candice view. But does he had the same reason for this kind of relationship?

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The Prince should have talked about his family situation honestly-tell her that she will not be his wife and that he has to marry a cousin which he knew for a long time. If you get married you have to tell your partner everything that is important to the relationship and anything that might change his decision to live with you for the rest of your life.
Maybe he never had the intention to perform a real marriage with her. Maybe he thought, it is not important to tell her anything about his family situation or the woman from his family, who was envisaged for him.
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  #124  
Old 03-06-2013, 04:14 PM
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The only reason that I called it "foolish" was because I thought I read that the marriage didn't take place until after Haya (or is it Aya?) was born.
The girls name is Aya, means "miracle", "sign" or "verse (of the Quran)" in arabic.

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It's a really a shame that religion is being made such a big deal of in this case when it appears that neither party had any inclination of living up to the tenets of their so-called faith.
The religion plays no role in this case. The media extend this point artificially.
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  #125  
Old 03-06-2013, 09:11 PM
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Sorry,before we talk about wheter she was in rehab or not we should make sure if she was really addicted or not.
As far as i know we only know about the anti-depressants 100% sure.

If all that drugs were really found in her body we still donīt know
a) if she had taken them herself or maybe mixed into a drink/food,infused by blood-we cannot rule out any of that cases
b) if C-A had taken them herself-wheter she had used drugs for a longer time
c)supposed C-A was an addict,why didnīt the French authorities know about it?
They do extensive interviews and research for every custody case,it can take many months just to collect all the data and information about the parents and their lifestyle,without that the court doesnīt make a decision.
A serious affection by substance abuse would never be unnoticed-because it doesnīt only show in your behaviour but also on your body. (e.g.your skin gets blank,you swet a lot,the pupils are dilated,often the addicts have red or swollen eyes,many have bad skin and donīt look after their body etc.)
Anyone with a little bit of common sense can notice a heavy drug addiction,it doesnīt need anexpert to see such signs.
Just like anorexia or bulimia you can see it,you donīt need to study psychology or medicine to notice that something is not quite right.
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  #126  
Old 03-06-2013, 10:55 PM
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Sorry,before we talk about wheter she was in rehab or not we should make sure if she was really addicted or not.
As far as i know we only know about the anti-depressants 100% sure.
I quoted the official police forensic toxicology report in post #105 & gave the link to the French newspaper, Libération, that printed it. That report is what was used by the police to decide whether the death accidental or not and whether charges should be filed. Libération is a left-wing progressive newspaper that focuses on things like feminism and women's rights. They are not out to bash Candice. Given France's strict libel laws, they would not have printed such an accusation if it wasn't true.

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Originally Posted by blauerengel View Post
A serious affection by substance abuse would never be unnoticed-because it doesnīt only show in your behaviour but also on your body. (e.g.your skin gets blank,you swet a lot,the pupils are dilated,often the addicts have red or swollen eyes,many have bad skin and donīt look after their body etc.)
Anyone with a little bit of common sense can notice a heavy drug addiction,it doesnīt need anexpert to see such signs.
Just like anorexia or bulimia you can see it,you donīt need to study psychology or medicine to notice that something is not quite right.
That may be true of drugs like crack, meth or heroin but not necessarily of drugs like cocaine or marijuana. Cocaine is actually considered a "white-collar" drug because many professionals use it and go completely unnoticed. Only someone very close to them, such as a spouse or a family member would notice behavioral symptoms. Unless you saw the user when they were high (and they usually only do that when alone or with other "drug buddies") then you wouldn't notice the pupil dilation and red eyes. Red, swollen eyes can also be attributed to allergies or smoking. Also, Candice appears to have had dark brown eyes which would make it more difficult for someone to notice dilated pupils.
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  #127  
Old 03-07-2013, 03:54 AM
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Originally Posted by charlieprk View Post
I quoted the official police forensic toxicology report in post #105 & gave the link to the French newspaper, Libération, that printed it. That report is what was used by the police to decide whether the death accidental or not and whether charges should be filed. Libération is a left-wing progressive newspaper that focuses on things like feminism and women's rights. They are not out to bash Candice. Given France's strict libel laws, they would not have printed such an accusation if it wasn't true.

I donīt doubt that the police reported anything wrong,but we still donīt know if she had taken that substances by herself or if she got it in some way.You might know that some women get "KO-drops" mixed into their drink when they go out because men want to have it easier to take them home and do with them what they want-so we canīt definitely say that Cohen-Agnine took that drugs on her free will.
The only thing that was officially known are the anti-depressants,they were probably prescribed by a doctor to help her stand through the difficulties.

Furthermore,it is not so rare that such tests get confused or the probes mixed up with others-for instance it happened to my brother that his blood was tested positive on a very dangerous illness when we were on holiday and when we checked again in Austria there was nothing-they told us that probes get confused and mis-labeled fom time to time.Thatīs why we should not take such tests 100% sure,as we do not know who tested,where was it tested,did they make any errors?
Errarum humanum est, as we say.The police and the hospitals make mistakes that sometimes can be very dangerous.My mother works as a nurse and they have a lot of work,they are always overworked & with stress+tiredness they sometimes give patients the wrong medicine.It is not because they are lazy or maligne-even if you are careful you can make mistakes,thatīs life.

There have been several muder cases where men were imprisoned for a crime they didnīt commit just because their DNA was in a strange place or confused with someone elseīs.
Just read that story,it is the most prominent case of Dr. DNA giving false directions to the police:
Germany's Phantom Serial Killer: A DNA Blunder - TIME
(That case gave me around 136.000 hits on google!I typed in "murder wrong DNA cotton buds")

AFAIK the rate of people on the death row who get imprisoned innocent is around 34% -I would call the US sytem highly developed and efficient,but it proofs that even with good work ethic &modern methods you canīt be 100% sure that your findings are really correct.

Hereīs some more for you to read:
Innocence and the Death Penalty | Death Penalty Information Center
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  #128  
Old 03-07-2013, 05:20 AM
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c)supposed C-A was an addict,why didnīt the French authorities know about it?
Now they know it! Unfortunately, only after her death.
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  #129  
Old 03-07-2013, 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by blauerengel View Post
A serious affection by substance abuse would never be unnoticed-because it doesnīt only show in your behaviour but also on your body. (e.g.your skin gets blank,you swet a lot,the pupils are dilated,often the addicts have red or swollen eyes,many have bad skin and donīt look after their body etc.)
Anyone with a little bit of common sense can notice a heavy drug addiction,it doesnīt need anexpert to see such signs.
Just like anorexia or bulimia you can see it,you donīt need to study psychology or medicine to notice that something is not quite right.
I havenīt studied psychology or medicine but I think, all of these external identification marks occur very late, when an advanced stage of drug addiction is reached. If you're not poor, you can hide a dependency for a long time. Often the use of drugs will be held in private if no outsider has access. Mrs. Candice fight for her daughter in court, so she will have been careful to conceal a possible suspicion of dependence.
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  #130  
Old 03-07-2013, 05:41 AM
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I donīt doubt that the police reported anything wrong,but we still donīt know if she had taken that substances by herself or if she got it in some way.You might know that some women get "KO-drops" mixed into their drink when they go out because men want to have it easier to take them home and do with them what they want-so we canīt definitely say that Cohen-Agnine took that drugs on her free will.
What do you think: Who should have given her the drugs in secret, without her free will? For what reason? At the same time only her husband (I mean Alain Cucumel, not Prince Sattam) was with her in the apartment. With this toxic cocktail, which was found in her blood by police after her death, she will not be able to walk, if she do not have all of this drugs regularly.
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  #131  
Old 03-07-2013, 07:36 AM
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This is fascinating to me! So, in Austria, if you want your religious marriage to be legal, you would have to have two weddings? What a pain! I can see why most just opt for a civil service.
Well,the civic wedding can be done in a few minutes,you just sign the papers in front of a civil servant (they are specially trained and university-educated) and than you can go.Itīs not a long or painful event
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  #132  
Old 03-07-2013, 07:45 AM
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I havenīt studied psychology or medicine but I think, all of these external identification marks occur very late, when an advanced stage of drug addiction is reached. If you're not poor, you can hide a dependency for a long time. Often the use of drugs will be held in private if no outsider has access. Mrs. Candice fight for her daughter in court, so she will have been careful to conceal a possible suspicion of dependence.
That might be true,it is different with every drug and every person.
Drugs like crystal are showing effects very soon,just in a few months a pretty girl can turn into an ugly creature with bad hair,dirty clothes and her skin will have many red dots-it looks very awful and the degeneration goes very quickly.
For marijuana if you donīt do it too often (many ppl take it for relaxation) it wonīt have such drastic effects but it usually reddens your eyes.Here are some symptoms put together by professional team who helps drug-addicts: Marijuana Addiction - Symptoms, Signs and Side Effects of Marijuana Abuse & Addiction - Timberline Knolls


We donīt know if she was given the drugs or if she may have taken a glass that her husband prepared for himself,however with so much drugs in her blood and that much weight I think her actions and body must have been impaired heavily.Additional to her weight (which was around 100kg according to charlieprk) climbing manoeuvers seem very unlikely to me,but of course we canīt know.We only know that she was not actively pushed down,only that she might have tried to get to another room,run away from something or maybe she had visions which made her uncontrollable.
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  #133  
Old 03-07-2013, 09:16 AM
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Well,the civic wedding can be done in a few minutes,you just sign the papers in front of a civil servant (they are specially trained and university-educated) and than you can go.Itīs not a long or painful event
I agree with you! If a marriage is seen as a "long, painful event", what will be the divorce?
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  #134  
Old 03-07-2013, 09:26 AM
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We donīt know if she was given the drugs or if she may have taken a glass that her husband prepared for himself,however with so much drugs in her blood and that much weight I think her actions and body must have been impaired heavily.Additional to her weight (which was around 100kg according to charlieprk) climbing manoeuvers seem very unlikely to me,but of course we canīt know.We only know that she was not actively pushed down,only that she might have tried to get to another room,run away from something or maybe she had visions which made her uncontrollable.
Well, all of that can be possible. From the pictures of the appartment you could see that windows had a small balcony and start from the floor. This made the climbing easy, also for a person under the influence of a lot of drugs.
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  #135  
Old 03-07-2013, 11:32 AM
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I agree with you! If a marriage is seen as a "long, painful event", what will be the divorce?
Relief!
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  #136  
Old 03-07-2013, 12:00 PM
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Relief!
True! Some couples start with the end!
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  #137  
Old 03-07-2013, 12:13 PM
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Itīs a little bit like the French movie 5x2 -http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0354356/,I just read the summary of the plot and different than other love movies it starts with the divorce!

Another question to charlieprk-You said that you have read her book,can you tell us where you bought/ordered it as I am sure there are other ppl who would like to read it as well!Thanks:-)
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  #138  
Old 03-07-2013, 12:27 PM
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I donīt doubt that the police reported anything wrong,but we still donīt know if she had taken that substances by herself or if she got it in some way.You might know that some women get "KO-drops" mixed into their drink when they go out because men want to have it easier to take them home and do with them what they want-so we canīt definitely say that Cohen-Agnine took that drugs on her free will.
It seems that you want to defend Candice at any cost.

KO-drops and Rohypnol "the date rape drug" were not found in in the toxicology report. Autopsy and toxicology reports can easily tell if someone ingested drugs orally or if they were smoked or snorted. That was not found in this case.

Cocaine doesn't even have the same effect if swallowed which is why people never do that. Swallowing cocaine can be deadly and the investigators would have noted the damage to her stomach if that happened. If the autopsy showed that someone had snuck her drugs, or if a date rape situation was suspected, that would be all over the news. The family would be crying for justice and the police would be looking to make an arrest. That has not happened.
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  #139  
Old 03-07-2013, 12:32 PM
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Itīs a little bit like the French movie 5x2 -http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0354356/,I just read the summary of the plot and different than other love movies it starts with the divorce!

Another question to charlieprk-You said that you have read her book,can you tell us where you bought/ordered it as I am sure there are other ppl who would like to read it as well!Thanks:-)
Sounds interesting. I'll have to look for that movie.


No, I haven't read the book. I only read French news articles that quoted the book. You can find them on Google if you know some French. I wish I could find the book! It would answer a lot of questions!
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  #140  
Old 03-07-2013, 12:36 PM
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Yes,thatīs true! There are so many open questions and with our current state of information we can only speculate.The book would allow us to clear many strange questions surrounding the kind of relationship they had and the marriage-which is very confusing.A lot of contradicting gossip is going around which makes it difficult to fully understand the case and know what is right and wrong.
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