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  #81  
Old 02-24-2013, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by blauerengel View Post
She is from a Jewish family-if your mother is Jewish her child is jewish as well (matrilinear) and thatīs probably the reason why she converted to Islam for her husband so that their daughter would be Muslim.
???? I donīt understand that point! Because from the islamic point of view a child is muslim if the father is a muslim.....Therefore, Mrs. Candice would not have to convert to Islam for her husband (By the way: This is also a less meaningful way. A conversion must always be based on the free will and done in an inner conviction to believe in Allah and His Prophet). Does the rule (if your mother is Jewish her child is jewish as well (matrilinear)) comes from the Jewish faith?

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Originally Posted by blauerengel View Post
As much as I understand it the Prince fabricated a document hat said she has converted back to Judaism so that she could not go back to Saudi Arabia! Very smart and shameless plot IMO.
Iīm speechless.....if he really did it, then ...... it shames me. Thats a wrong path!

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Originally Posted by blauerengel View Post
If you have ever been to Israel you canīt enter the UAE-so supposed you want to get rid of your girlfriend you send her passport to Israel,let them put an Israeli seal on it and she will not be able to legally immigrate to Dubai again.
Your idea would not works in this way. Also we are talking about a Saudi prince and KSA and not about UAE and Dubai. Right?

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Originally Posted by Lenora View Post
...if an European (or other non-muslim) woman marries a Muslim man...would their marriage be considered fully legal?
Their marriage would be considered fully legal from Islamic point of view if she is a believer of a religion of the book (Jewish, Christian, Muslim). A conversation to Islam is not necessary and should not forced from others. Muslim men should not marry women with no faith. Marriages with persons of other faiths, which are not belongs to the religions of the book, are also prohibited.

Normally it is obligatory that children of such marriages will be raised in Islam, unless the parents agree about exceptions in private. However, the children remain Muslims officially (you are seen as Muslim, if your father was Muslim).

By the way: Has anyone here read the book, written by Mrs. Candice?
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  #82  
Old 02-25-2013, 03:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Imanmajed View Post
Unifications are not a good way. There are good and bad men in every culture. I think, it is wrong to generalize...
Yes, I did write that there are exceptions but I was also saying that the probability or only the slightest chance of meeting someone and having a relationship that turns sour are not to be ignored.

The lady did do a lot of research,she was not a silly naive girl and she does not seem to be (was) stupid.
She had a 3-year relationship and she also converted to Islam (which she would not have done without research or if she didnīt apreacciate the teachings of the Prophet).The prince told her that they are going to marry and obviously they did marry under muslim law but did not inform her about the expectation of his familiy to marry a cousin. (Which he has probably known for a long time,some Arabs tell me that their mothers started looking for a bride very early-so this was not a surprise to the Prince.) As I said,HE knew his culture much better than Cohen Agnine,it was his responsibility to teach her.Also he was not a Crown Prince or important member of the RF (there are countless Saudi princes and princesses that even locals donīt know all of them.)and therefor it was not obvious for an outsider to know that he has to marry a woman chosen by the family.Usually the Crown Prince and important royals have to select a special bride with good family relation,noble status,good looks,healthy,pristine reputation etc. but the less important royals can chose a person they love.
When you come to my country it is my responsibility to tell you what is right and what is considered rude by our society,where you need to be careful and which places are dangerous to do.If I donīt do that I would be partly responsible if you get into trouble because I canīt expect you to know the subtetlies of our culture and way of living.

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Originally Posted by Imanmajed View Post
???? I donīt understand that point!...
I was just referring to a similiar law- that has already been ABOLISHED but was intact last time I went to UAE.(I also posted the correction)So no need to get upset!
Yes, in Judaism the woman is teaching her children morals and integrity,they do most part of the religious education and raise their children so thatīs why the religion goes matrilinear.
Did you read the section on Sheikh Hamdanīs biography on his page where he wrote that he doesnīt want to live in a society that doesnīt appreciate mothers and their impact on society? (My words here,but you can still find his words on the page).I wonder what he thinks about the way women (who are mothers,sisters,wives) are treated in Saudi Arabia. Seriously,I would like to know.
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  #83  
Old 02-25-2013, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by blauerengel View Post
Yes, in Judaism the woman is teaching her children morals and integrity,they do most part of the religious education and raise their children so thatīs why the religion goes matrilinear.
That's interesting. I did not know. Thanks for enlighten me.

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Originally Posted by blauerengel View Post
Did you read the section on Sheikh Hamdanīs biography on his page where he wrote that he doesnīt want to live in a society that doesnīt appreciate mothers and their impact on society? (My words here,but you can still find his words on the page).I wonder what he thinks about the way women (who are mothers,sisters,wives) are treated in Saudi Arabia. Seriously,I would like to know.
The living conditions in KSA are different from those in the UAE, although they are adjacent. This also affects the perception of women and the implementation of Islam in daily life. What Sheikh Hamdan think about of the state of women in KSA, I can not say. Also itīs not the topic here. As an Emirati man I can tell you only my own perspective, if you want to know that. I want do so in a PM to you, because that is not the issue here.

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Originally Posted by blauerengel View Post
The lady did do a lot of research,she was not a silly naive girl and she does not seem to be (was) stupid.
You'll be right, but also a wise and well-informed woman can get into situations that she can not handle, or where the circumstances are too powerful and superior, that she alone has no chance. It seems to be the reason in the case of the prince and Mrs. Candice.
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  #84  
Old 02-25-2013, 07:35 AM
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Did not know that. That converting is punishable by death in the KSA goes to show how different the backgrounds of the various posters are.

We handle this topic quite well, it used to be forbidden at TRF because discussions became very unpleasant.


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Originally Posted by Imanmajed View Post
Yes, that true. In KSA the converting from Islam to a other religion or non-religion is punishable by death.
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  #85  
Old 02-25-2013, 07:41 AM
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I had further concerned with this case and read some publications and articles last night because I sympathized with the lady. The reports and the witness testify agree that Mrs. Candice climbed out of her window, and from there tried to go to another window or balcony of a neighboring apartment. She lost her footing and fell down. In my opinion that speaks for an accident and not for a suicide. Even the police report assumes. Unclear, however, why she climbed onto the faįade of the house exactly. In a suicide attempt, she would have jumped out of the window. But she didnīt. For my point of view she wanted to live and not die.

Some reports also mentioned details of her life with the prince, she had revealed in interviews. I must confess that I feel very ashamed about some of the details. But the different reports made also clear that several opportunities were offered to her by her husband, which she has not been used. Although she spent years in Lebanon and KSA, she was not approached by his culture and always acting in a manner which is not that way a wife behaves with her ​​husband. The Saudi prince offered her a property in Riyadh, a monthly salary, domestic servants and annual holiday with Aya in Europe. So she could live with her ​​daughter together, but she refused. She did not reflect that her daughter is a Saudi princess and thus a member of the royal family. She canīt take her to a life without the security of the fathers family of origin. She should have accept that her own life is linked to the life of the RF of KSA by the birth of her daughter. This can not be undone by her simply when her relationship get broken. Later, Mrs. Candice continues in "a western style" and made the matter publicly. So she has supplied the through ball to her ex-husband and his family to harass her. Of course this is no excuse for their behavior, but an explanation.
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  #86  
Old 02-25-2013, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by LipGloss View Post
I tried to find his full name but I couldn't find it, he's only referred as prince Sattam AlSaud, the story is all over Arabic media and none of them mentions the full name or how he relates to the king so I believe the king and Sattam aren't closely related
According to the arab media his full name is H.R.H. Prince Sattam bin Khalid bin Nasser bin Abdul Aziz Al Saud.
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  #87  
Old 02-25-2013, 09:00 AM
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She had a 3-year relationship and....
Allow me to correct: She had a more than 11 years relationship with the prince. She met him at a study visit to England when she was 19 years old. Quite early, she became pregnant by him because her daughter Aya is already 11 years old. That means for me at first, probably it must be that to "give a proper thought" comes with pregnancy, but not before. Means: possibly she was not so well informed about all potential consequences which followed, as you assume. From my point of view it is to assume, that the prince because of his young age itself was not aware of the consequences to him at the beginning of the relationship. Both acted only from loving feelings for each other and had forgotten the real world.
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Originally Posted by blauerengel View Post
she also converted to Islam (which she would not have done without research or if she didnīt apreacciate the teachings of the Prophet).
What makes you sure to assume this? In interviews, she said she converted to Islam for him. ???? For me it seems more an acting out of blinded by love. It seems possible for some people to convert without knowledge (it must not have been the case with her, is only a mental stimulation).

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Originally Posted by blauerengel View Post
The prince told her that they are going to marry and obviously they did marry under muslim law ...
One article claimed that they tie the knot in Egypt after the birth of Aya. In another article stood, they held their marriage in Lebanon before Aya was born. Well, for sure Mrs. Candice converted to Islam before marriage. She would better to ensure here that the marriage contract contains an exclusion clause against polygamy. She has apparently forgotten (or simply had not been informed that she can claim this if she wants). It is not clear to me whether this marriage was registered later in KSA or not. If not, then marriage has been hidden by the prince obviously.

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Originally Posted by blauerengel View Post
but did not inform her about the expectation of his familiy to marry a cousin. (Which he has probably known for a long time, some Arabs tell me that their mothers started looking for a bride very early - so this was not a surprise to the Prince.) As I said,HE knew his culture much better than Cohen Agnine, it was his responsibility to teach her.
Maybe you have right here. He neglected the special requirements in a bicultural marriage. However, he did have the option of polygamy and regarded the demand of the family for an "official Saudi wife" as normality, about which there is no need for discussion. My opinion: It is more advisable for a woman to get necessary informations from herself - regardless of the husband - and not to wait he offers. In addition, there is the danger that he tells his wife things that only correspond to "his truth". Also, I wonder just why she had marry a prince of the Saudi royal family, if she strictly rejects polygamy?

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Originally Posted by blauerengel View Post
Also he was not a Crown Prince or important member of the RF (there are countless Saudi princes and princesses that even locals donīt know all of them.) and therefor it was not obvious for an outsider to know that he has to marry a woman chosen by the family. Usually the Crown Prince and important royals have to select a special bride with good family relation,noble status,good looks,healthy,pristine reputation etc. but the less important royals can chose a person they love.
That would contradict your statement above in part. You wrote that Arab mothers early look out for particular and acceptable brides for her sons. This means it is a social standard in society that marriages are arranged. Even with non-royal and non-ruling Arab families. In the Gulf region its true and actually rooted in the tradition. In addition, preference is given to marriages within your own kin, your own tribe, your own nationality, your own religion. On the Arabian Peninsula pure love marriages do occur, but represent not the majority of all marriages.

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Originally Posted by blauerengel View Post
When you come to my country it is my responsibility to tell you what is right and what is considered rude by our society,where you need to be careful and which places are dangerous to do.If I donīt do that I would be partly responsible if you get into trouble because I canīt expect you to know the subtetlies of our culture and way of living.
Even if I trust you fully, I would teach myself first what is important to know and proper in your country and society. I would not wait, that you explain to me, how I have to live in a appropriate manner in your culture. I take care of myself first!
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  #88  
Old 02-25-2013, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Imanmajed View Post
Unifications are not a good way. There are good and bad men in every culture.
You give sage advice and for that I thank you and many western women would be wise to heed such intelligent advice. Cross cultural roamances can be fine, but often turn out badly, espcially between women of western culture and men of mid-eastern culture. The chasm between their thoughts is vast. And as you so, wisely, enumerate, really think this out. Thank you, agin. You are a wise and thoughtful man.
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  #89  
Old 02-25-2013, 07:28 PM
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Thank you so much for your compliments.
As a "wise and thoughtful man" I must also tell you, that no relationship break of differences, but to people who can not deal with them.

Even in relationships where both come from the same culture and religion, there are differences. The magic of a marriage or any relationship is to create a common way that respects the different perspectives and can blend into a whole entity.

You need the will to appreciate the other as she/he is. You should never attempt to change the other, but you have to give her/him the opportunity to reach a path to the inside of your heartbeat.

A guarantee of happiness does not exist. Only there is the adventure of a common journey in which both do not know where they will arrive. But the control elements can and should checked in advance so that the travel of a relationship not already fails at the first cliff.
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  #90  
Old 02-25-2013, 08:15 PM
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Allow me to correct...
I have written that their relationship prior to the birth of the daughter was 3 years-I didnīt mention the length of the whole relationship because I donīt know it.Three years is not such a short time and to me it seems as if they planned the birth,it didnīt happen by accident but thatīs just my interpretation.

The whole question-were they married?When/where/under which circumstances is not exactly clear to me-some say she was married in Lebanon,other sources claim Egypt as the place were they tied the knot,other articles didnīt write a word about the marrital status...so Iīm left confused and I canīt tell which source is right.I only know she was not his official wife and she was never planned to be.

I donīt know why she married him or what has attracted them to each other,we can only speculate and only the people involved know the truth.

Let me give you an example abot marriages in other royal houses:The Crown Prince/Princess always has to chose a bride/groom with a huge set of specific qualifications,proper behaviour etc. but if you look at the royals of less important status,they can also marry people of doubtful reputation if they love them and it is quietly accepted. (Donīt want to mention names here as itīs not the topic of this thread) Of course,from time to time even some not-so-perfect partners but only with much difficulty and discussions.

I guess that ALL mothers no matter which country or religion are looking for the best partner for their children,after all they had dedicated many years and hard work & love into their upbringing,they want to see them happy & donīt want to settle for anyone less than perfect...

...you can read as much books and internet articles as you want,but there are some things you wonīt find between two boards-just like in your country and your religion there are many things that are well-known by insiders but not written down anywhere and you need someone to explain it to you.If you just read books you will compile a lot of information and certainly learn a lot but being only book-smart doesnīt explain you all the subtetlies and details of life.
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  #91  
Old 02-25-2013, 11:06 PM
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In all attractions there are dangers. I do, beleive you and Imanmajed, trod some of those areas. Yes, you have both seen the disconnect of those who allow their emotions at the time of the event, whether for love or politics, to bring them to a miserable outcome, without consideration of the many facets of their relationship and how they cannot control the, probable, end. I, think, you both have given invaluable advice.
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  #92  
Old 02-26-2013, 03:21 PM
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Well,we have to keep in mind that not alle Saudis or Arabs are like that Prince, just like there are not many US-girls who act like Paris Hilton (thanks god!)...... and unfortunately not all Austrians can ski like Marcel Hirscher or break the freefall world record like Felix Baumgartner ;-)
This is a very unique and complicated case and as I would like to get to know more about it,I will try to get the book by Cohen-Agnine,I couldnīt find it in any local bookstore or amazon,it is really difficult to find...I would have imagined that they have it on sale everywhere because books like this usually gather a large audience and it is a very interesting & tragic story.Maybe it is easier to get it in Paris or London-did anyone see Cohenīs book in a store?
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  #93  
Old 02-26-2013, 04:41 PM
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My main interest in this case is the bicultural level and the legal aspects. Therefore I wanted to buy the book also, but unfortunately impossible. Surprisingly the book is no longer available. The edition is out of print. Whether a new edition will printed, is uncertain. As far as my research, the book is not available in English (I am surprised). Possibly it can still get in French bookseller stores. Unfortunately I do not understand French. But for you it might be an alternative.
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  #94  
Old 02-27-2013, 05:19 PM
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Imanmajed,it doesnīt surprise me that the book is not available in Arab countries and amazon (which as far as I know is partly owned by Saudis),but that it is not even available in any local book stores (not even on demand) is VERY strange.
Maybe the prince bought the rights for the books and made sure that no more books would be printed?I know it sound weird,but not impossible.
Stories with a bad Arab guy and a tragic young European/US woman who is seduced by the cruel foreign guy and gets abused and heartbroken are always selling extremely well....
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Old 02-27-2013, 06:21 PM
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I do not think, this is possible. Normally the author and publisher secures the rights to the publication of a book. The sale of the book in Europe can not prevent or be controlled from outside.
Please, do not be so merciless with the prince. Errors were made ​​on both sides, I think. Love changed its fire and requires a common will for finding possible targets together. That's not going to happen in this case and was boycotted by both sides. Both have broken the hearts of each other and thereby nothing was gained.
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Old 02-27-2013, 07:30 PM
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Dear Imanmajed,I think you misinterpreted my last post.I was just saying that books where women write about their terrible treatment (wheter they make it up or itīs true doesnīt matter)in Arab countries are very popular right now.Remember the book/film "Not without my daughter" or the highly interesting book by Malika Oufkir from Marocco who was imprisoned for 15 years because her father attempted to overthrow the king?(These books are a few years old now,the first one published in the 90ies,but however that kind of stories really hits the nerve of the "western" audience.) Just like in the Sixties everyone wanted to read science fiction,people like to read autobiographical stories now:-)
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Old 02-27-2013, 07:49 PM
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@blauerengel: Really, you are right. I misunderstood the last part of your previous post. Forgive!
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  #98  
Old 02-27-2013, 09:20 PM
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Nice try. But, money and power triumphs everything. If the Prince wanted to, especially since the author has been murdered and the publisher can be threatened, they could have dissappeared. What the actual maneuvers were one will never know. Candice cannot complain, and the publisher endowed with far more than he would have ever earned, from "power and money", will not publish. And Candice made a large mistake and has paid dearly for it.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:02 AM
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What I can think of is that the Prince (or someone acting vicariously for him) bought the rights for the books so that it wonīt be published no more.If I were him (the Prince) I would be extremely afraid that the daughter Aya gets to know ANYTHING about the story so I can understand this action.Aya will probably be told that her mother had an accident or had died after taking too much anti-depression pills,so that she wonīt ask more questions.
After Cohen Agnines strange death I fully comprehend that nobody wants to risk his/her life by doing further investigations or doing anything that might cause the Prince to take drastic measurements.
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Old 02-28-2013, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COUNTESS
money and power triumphs everything.
Or maybe the book is simply out of print. It happens to most, sooner or later.

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Originally Posted by blauerengel
...If I were him (the Prince) I would be extremely afraid that the daughter Aya gets to know ANYTHING about the story...
A simple internet search would provide Aya with a lot of information about her late mother and speculation of the circumstances leading to her death. For example she would find this discussion and the news and video links it contains.
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