Candice Cohen-Agnine and Prince Sattam Al Saud: Custody and Death Cases

[COUNTESS]

In all attractions there are dangers. I do, beleive you and Imanmajed, trod some of those areas. Yes, you have both seen the disconnect of those who allow their emotions at the time of the event, whether for love or politics, to bring them to a miserable outcome, without consideration of the many facets of their relationship and how they cannot control the, probable, end. I, think, you both have given invaluable advice.

 

[blauerengel]

Well,we have to keep in mind that not alle Saudis or Arabs are like that Prince, just like there are not many US-girls who act like Paris Hilton (thanks god!)...... and unfortunately not all Austrians can ski like Marcel Hirscher or break the freefall world record like Felix Baumgartner ;-)
This is a very unique and complicated case and as I would like to get to know more about it,I will try to get the book by Cohen-Agnine,I couldn´t find it in any local bookstore or amazon,it is really difficult to find...I would have imagined that they have it on sale everywhere because books like this usually gather a large audience and it is a very interesting & tragic story.Maybe it is easier to get it in Paris or London-did anyone see Cohen´s book in a store?

 

[Imanmajed]

My main interest in this case is the bicultural level and the legal aspects. Therefore I wanted to buy the book also, but unfortunately impossible. Surprisingly the book is no longer available. The edition is out of print. Whether a new edition will printed, is uncertain. As far as my research, the book is not available in English (I am surprised). Possibly it can still get in French bookseller stores. Unfortunately I do not understand French. But for you it might be an alternative.

 

[blauerengel]

Imanmajed,it doesn´t surprise me that the book is not available in Arab countries and amazon (which as far as I know is partly owned by Saudis),but that it is not even available in any local book stores (not even on demand) is VERY strange.
Maybe the prince bought the rights for the books and made sure that no more books would be printed?I know it sound weird,but not impossible.
Stories with a bad Arab guy and a tragic young European/US woman who is seduced by the cruel foreign guy and gets abused and heartbroken are always selling extremely well....

 

[Imanmajed]

I do not think, this is possible. Normally the author and publisher secures the rights to the publication of a book. The sale of the book in Europe can not prevent or be controlled from outside.
Please, do not be so merciless with the prince. Errors were made ​​on both sides, I think. Love changed its fire and requires a common will for finding possible targets together. That's not going to happen in this case and was boycotted by both sides. Both have broken the hearts of each other and thereby nothing was gained.

 

[blauerengel]

Dear Imanmajed,I think you misinterpreted my last post.I was just saying that books where women write about their terrible treatment (wheter they make it up or it´s true doesn´t matter)in Arab countries are very popular right now.Remember the book/film "Not without my daughter" or the highly interesting book by Malika Oufkir from Marocco who was imprisoned for 15 years because her father attempted to overthrow the king?(These books are a few years old now,the first one published in the 90ies,but however that kind of stories really hits the nerve of the "western" audience.) Just like in the Sixties everyone wanted to read science fiction,people like to read autobiographical stories now

 

[Imanmajed]

@blauerengel: Really, you are right. I misunderstood the last part of your previous post. Forgive!

 

[COUNTESS]

Nice try. But, money and power triumphs everything. If the Prince wanted to, especially since the author has been murdered and the publisher can be threatened, they could have dissappeared. What the actual maneuvers were one will never know. Candice cannot complain, and the publisher endowed with far more than he would have ever earned, from "power and money", will not publish. And Candice made a large mistake and has paid dearly for it.

 

[blauerengel]

What I can think of is that the Prince (or someone acting vicariously for him) bought the rights for the books so that it won´t be published no more.If I were him (the Prince) I would be extremely afraid that the daughter Aya gets to know ANYTHING about the story so I can understand this action.Aya will probably be told that her mother had an accident or had died after taking too much anti-depression pills,so that she won´t ask more questions.
After Cohen Agnines strange death I fully comprehend that nobody wants to risk his/her life by doing further investigations or doing anything that might cause the Prince to take drastic measurements.

 

[Warren]

money and power triumphs everything.

Or maybe the book is simply out of print. It happens to most, sooner or later.

...If I were him (the Prince) I would be extremely afraid that the daughter Aya gets to know ANYTHING about the story...

A simple internet search would provide Aya with a lot of information about her late mother and speculation of the circumstances leading to her death. For example she would find this discussion and the news and video links it contains.

 

[COUNTESS]

Or maybe the book is simply out of print. It happens to most, sooner or later.

A simple internet search would provide Aya with a lot of information about her late mother and speculation of the circumstances leading to her death. For example she would find this discussion and the news and video links it contains.

Yes, the book, if it were old might be out of print. But to be frank, I do not think that is the case here.

Aya, probably, will not have the freedom to do these things. She probably hasn't been told what her mother's real name is. What her circumstances were when she was kidnapped. Gossip may inform her better than what she can learn, internally. Yes, some day, she, probably, will be able to piece things together. You treat this as a blip in a child's life. Sorry, but I think you are unrealistic and unkind.

 

[blauerengel]

Warren,I belive that sooner or later she will learn parts of the story but remember that there is a strong censorship in Saudi Arabia-for instance if foreign newspapers are brought into the country,all pages with nude girls,showing alcohol or critical articles about the kingdom/ruling family or islam will be ripped out (I´ve seen it with my own eyes),of course rich Saudis travel a lot and know what is going on,they can also buy foreign magazines when they are in London or some people get them in KSA by semi-legal ways. (Playboy magazines or alcohol are traded at very high prices and everybody knows the black market.If you have money,you can get all Western goods.)
Furthermore some internet pages are completely blocked-when I say they are blocked it means you need to have a special education in IT to break it and even than it is very very difficult or impossible.

 

[Imanmajed]

Yes, the book, if it were old might be out of print. But to be frank, I do not think that is the case here.

The book is published in November 2011 first. I phoned with the publisher L'Archipel, who has published the book "Rendez-moi ma fille". The edition of the book is out of print. A new edition is not planned at the moment. The co-writer of the book, Jean-Claude Elfassi, also did not plan a new edition.

I found three online pages where the book is still available, even as an e-book.
Maybe this information will be helpfull for interested readers, who understand French. For the sake of the advertising ban on TRF, I send the referencing of online portals via PM on request.

She probably hasn't been told what her mother's real name is. What her circumstances were when she was kidnapped. Gossip may inform her better than what she can learn, internally. Yes, some day, she, probably, will be able to piece things together. You treat this as a blip in a child's life. Sorry, but I think you are unrealistic and unkind.

Aya lived the first seven years of her life with her mother in Lebanon and France. So the girl know her mother and her mothers name. Aya and her mother wasn´t kidnapped. 2008 both flew to KSA voluntarily. There Mrs. Candice received the offer of the prince to live with his family and her daughter in KSA. She has refused. Whereupon he made use of his right and refused to leave of Aya. This is legal under Saudi law.

So you have a better idea of the case, here's the story in a timeline:

1998: Prince Sattam al-Saud and Candice Cohen-Ahnine meet in Browns nightclub in London. They begin an on-off relationship.

1999: Candice was pregnant first time, but she and the prince opted for an abortion.

2001: Candice was pregnant for the second time, this time the decision was made for the birth of the child.

November 2001: Aya was born.

2006: The couple break up after the prince claims he must marry a cousin and Miss Cohen-Ahnine refuses to be his second wife.

2008: Miss Cohen-Ahnine and Aya visit the Saudi capital Riyadh, where the mother claims they are locked up in a palace. Miss Cohen-Ahnine manages to escape, but Aya remains with her father.

2009: A child custody battle between the feuding parents begins.

2011: Miss Cohen-Ahnine attacks her former partner in a book entitled "Rendez-moi ma fille" (Give me my daughter)

January 2012: A French criminal court awards custody of Aya to Miss Cohen-Ahnine, but the prince fails to comply with the order.

August 2012: Miss Cohen-Ahnine falls to her death from a luxury apartment block in Paris.

 

[Imanmajed]

Warren,I belive that sooner or later she will learn parts of the story but remember that there is a strong censorship in Saudi Arabia-for instance if foreign newspapers are brought into the country,all pages with nude girls,showing alcohol or critical articles about the kingdom/ruling family or islam will be ripped out (I´ve seen it with my own eyes),of course rich Saudis travel a lot and know what is going on,they can also buy foreign magazines when they are in London or some people get them in KSA by semi-legal ways. (Playboy magazines or alcohol are traded at very high prices and everybody knows the black market.If you have money,you can get all Western goods.)
Furthermore some internet pages are completely blocked-when I say they are blocked it means you need to have a special education in IT to break it and even than it is very very difficult or impossible.

All these restrictions can not prevent the truth. The truth has no limit and will always find a way to reveal itself. Maybe Aya, if she is grown up, want to think different about the matter as we assume here today.

 

[charlieprk]

This case seems to have triggered strong emotions and I have to applaud Imanmajed for attempting to bring some objectivity to this thread. That's not always an easy position to take. I decided to do some research on this case and I found information in the French newspapers that shed new light on this subject.

Candice Cohen-Agnine had a husband, Alain Cucumel, who was at the apartment with her when she fell from the balcony. Cucumel was 20 years older than her and was her former boss. He is said to be a "notorious alcoholic" and has been accused of fraud and other illegal activities. He admits to being in the apartment with her, along with his son. This rules out the presence of any mysterious Saudi operatives looking to assassinate Candice. Neighbors heard Alain Cucumel and Candice engaged in a vicious argument prior to the accident.

The toxicology reports from Candice's autopsy reported that she had "two grams of alcohol per liter in her blood, traces of cannabis, cocaine and psychotropic " in her body at the time of her death. The psychotropic was possibly Xanax, according to other reports. Quite a deadly combination to say the least.... The report continues, "she weighed 98 kg. She climbed over the balcony. The mixture of alcohol, drugs and cannabis have decreased reflexes and alertness, and dropped by her weight by accident. " "She took anti-depressants. It's a purely accidental death," said a police source.


My personal observations:

Candice seemed to have led a very dysfunctional life. She very foolishly got pregnant by a man that she was not married to. She aborted that pregnancy. That should have been a wake-up call for anyone with a brain. Not for Candice. She then got pregnant a SECOND time. Still no wedding ring. The Prince doesn't "marry" her until after the 2nd child, Haya, is born. The marriage was said to be an "Islamic marriage". I can not find any record that his marriage was registered in the courts or if it was accepted under French law. Some Islamic marriages are not registered in the courts and they may be legal in an Islamic country but they are illegal in most Western countries. This should be another red flag for any Western woman who falls so easily for "Sheikh Charming". If he wants to "marry" you but refuses to register the marriage in the court, you need to run because you are on shaky ground. [See the Nivin el Gamal vs Sheikh Ahmed bin Saeed al Maktoum case for information about these unregistered "Islamic" marriages and the headaches they cause].

The Prince's own mother told Candice that the Prince didn't care about her and Candice ignored that. Yet another red flag.. The Prince didn't see Candice for months at a time and Candice still foolishly pursued a relationship with him. At this point, I begin to question Candice's mental ability and intelligence because this whole thing is just stupid. How many red flags does this woman need??? Where was Candice's family in all of this? Didn't they teach her any morals or common sense?

Candice's family is playing the blame-game and blaming Alain Cucumel for the death because they were involved in a quarrel. Cucumel showed up at the funeral, caused a scene and was expelled. Cucumel seems to be a shady character but I'm not sure that the evidence that the police presented would make him guilty of murder. My feeling is that if Candice felt threatened, she could have fled out the front door or phoned the police. She did neither. The family is also said to be offended that the Prince didn't show up at the funeral or send flowers. Candice's friends and family seem to be blaming everyone else except Candice.


Neither Candice nor the Prince are innocent in this case. Both acted very foolishly by bringing a child into the world that they were not prepared to raise together. They both took their clothes off so they are both to blame. However, a woman who uses cocaine and marijuana has no right to parent a child. None. It is especially despicable that she was using drugs knowing that her daughter could be returned to her at anytime. She was also in a relationship with a man that was said to be a "notorious alcoholic". What an awful environment that would have been for poor little Haya! The Prince is no saint but it is possible that he knew about Candice's drug and alcohol abuse and that's why he refused to send Haya to her mother. Given the evidence, I think Haya is better off in Saudi Arabia with her grandmother and extended family.

As far as the accusations from Candice's so-called "friends" - perhaps if they spent more time trying to get Candice help for her addictions instead of blaming others, this tragedy may not have happened.

When one chooses to live a hedonistic lifestyle it never ends well. No one forced Candice to get involved in dysfunctional sexual relationships. No one forced Candice to mix alcohol and Xanax. No one forced Candice to take cocaine and marijuana. No one forced Candice to dangle over a balcony while intoxicated. She did all this on her own. Like I said before, the Prince is no saint and he will have to live with the consequences of his actions and will ultimately have to answer to God for his sins. But, the Prince's sins do not exempt Candice from her own responsibility in this matter. Candice alone is responsible for her own actions and ultimately, her death.




French sources:

La vie en rose et noir de Candice - Libération

Alain Cucumel l

Au pays de Candice, on pleure, on ne rit plus

English source:

Death of a saudi prince's woman -*Independent.ie

 

[Lenora]

With all respect, despite the fact that Candice could have committed some fatal errors, she suffered from depression and in any case the main reason that pushed her in this despair was the fact that Prince had taken their daughter and she had no rights to see her, it was her personal tragedy.

 

[Imanmajed]

@ charlieprk: With all due respect for your opinion, but in most cases, substance abuse has a history that led to this dysfunctional life. I think we should not forget in this case. Maybe this pretty young woman never had good friends and close family at her side to help her to handle the problems. If you love - really deep love - then you not pay attention to the red flags at the edge.

In her interviews, you have to look in her eyes in order to know in what situation she was. Her eyes and body language say more than words can express. She has lost the bases in her life and there was no one, which want to help her seriously. This is a very cruel experience. She was crushed between such large differences, whose power she could not control nor had expected. Her mistakes are signs of her uncertainty and made the whole only more painful for her, without a healing effect. There is no blaming by someone alone. It is a tragedy and first we should not ask about blame. We should ask about the real circumstances and avoid allegations.

Please, condemn nobody so quickly. Maybe the same things (alcohol, drugs, bad relationships, depression, mistakes) in similar circumstances can happen to all of us.

 

[Imanmajed]

See the Nivin el Gamal vs Sheikh Ahmed bin Saeed al Maktoum case for information about these unregistered "Islamic" marriages and the headaches they cause.

This is another case and I hope, it will not end in the same way....But its not the topic here.

 

[Imanmajed]

She very foolishly got pregnant by a man that she was not married to. She then got pregnant a SECOND time.

This should not be a problem among Westerners, right? Considered of the view of certain values​​ it is rather a tricky affair.....

Still no wedding ring. The Prince doesn't "marry" her .......

BTW: We havn´t special wedding rings for the couple in Arab Gulf countries......

The marriage was said to be an "Islamic marriage". I can not find any record that his marriage was registered in the courts or if it was accepted under French law. Some Islamic marriages are not registered in the courts and they may be legal in an Islamic country but they are illegal in most Western countries. This should be another red flag for any Western woman who falls so easily for "Sheikh Charming". If he wants to "marry" you but refuses to register the marriage in the court, you need to run because you are on shaky ground.

As far as I know, purely Islamic marriages are not recognized in Western countries or at least not comparable to a regular marriage. Unfortunately sometimes (not in every case) Arab men take advantage of this opportunity to circumvent the obligations of a legal marriage outside of their native country.

But such "religious marriages" are not illegally (means not forbidden), even not by western law. As I know, in western countries you can have a relationship without a marriage. You can live together and a marriage certificate is not required. Correct me if I´m wrong. It seems to be a combination of two very different views (western practise/lifestyle and islamic law) which are connected to a completely new system (marriage under the islamic point of view but without its commitments and with the benefits of western privilege (cohabitation and more outside of legal marriage). Nevertheless advantages and disadvantages are in it too.

 

[blauerengel]

Candice Cohen-Agnine had a husband, Alain Cucumel, who was at the apartment with her when she fell from the balcony. Cucumel was 20 years older than her and was her former boss. He is said to be a "notorious alcoholic" and has been accused of fraud and other illegal activities. He admits to being in the apartment with her, along with his son. This rules out the presence of any mysterious Saudi operatives looking to assassinate Candice. Neighbors heard Alain Cucumel and Candice engaged in a vicious argument prior to the accident.

The toxicology reports from Candice's autopsy reported that she had "two grams of alcohol per liter in her blood, traces of cannabis, cocaine and psychotropic " in her body at the time of her death. The psychotropic was possibly Xanax, according to other reports. Quite a deadly combination to say the least.... The report continues, "she weighed 98 kg. She climbed over the balcony. The mixture of alcohol, drugs and cannabis have decreased reflexes and alertness, and dropped by her weight by accident. " "She took anti-depressants. It's a purely accidental death," said a police source.

With all due respect,I find your sources doubtful except for the Libération article.A few online blogs are not sufficient proof-anyone can write a blog and write whatever they please.Secondly,I don´t believe that you are from the US,someone with such a negative attitude towards women would not survive long in the USA-stating such a heartless analysis of a woman who has died is really cruel.It might be true that she has taken substances,but she was not a foolish girl who is having one-night stands or doesn´t think about her life at all.I believe that she really loved the Prince and that´s why her judgement was blinded.From experience and hearing stories from other people I can tell you that people do a lot of foolish things when they fall in love,nobody is immune to making mistakes,especially when they are in emotional turmoil.
Thirdly,I would like to ask how you think she could climb the balcony if she had taken so much drugs& alcohol and was weighing almost 100 kg?I don´t think it´s possible to do proper movements when you are pumped full with such toxic substances.
Maybe we could start to talk about facts and leave the judgement to god and the law.

 

[COUNTESS]

Thank you in English, Blue Angel, because you are. You have asked very pertinent questions and many of the quotes stated facts are from whom? I, too, believe, if she was that impaired, she probably would have passed out. Marijuana calms people, cocaine, if she took it at all and the alcohol, would have knocked her for a loop.

By the way, marriages in Islamic Mosques in the US are recognized as marriages as in any other relgious venue. Islamic style of divorce is not recognized, as it has no basis in any legal system, here. You cannot just say I divorce you, there are reprecussions.

Yes, she was foolish, who knows what he promised her. They came from different value systems. And she loved her child. That is, really, all she seems to have wanted at the end.

 

[charlieprk]

@ charlieprk: With all due respect for your position, but in most cases, substance abuse has a history that led to this dysfunctional life. I think we should not forget in this case. Maybe this pretty young woman never had good friends and close family at her side to help her to handle the problems. If you love - really deep love - then you not pay attention to the red flags at the edge.

In her interviews, you have to look in her eyes in order to know in what situation she was. Her eyes and body language say more than words can express. She has lost the bases in her life and there was no one, which want to help her seriously. This is a very cruel experience. She was crushed between such large differences, whose power she could not control nor had expected. Her mistakes are signs of her uncertainty and made the whole only more painful for her, without a healing effect. There is no blaming by someone alone. It is a tragedy and first we should not ask about blame. We should ask about the real circumstances and avoid allegations.

Please, condemn nobody so quickly. Maybe the same things (alcohol, drugs, bad relationships, depression, mistakes) in similar circumstances can happen to all of us.

I am sorry if I sounded harsh. That was not my intention. I admit that I am very emotional about this subject because because this is something that I am very familiar with because I have counselled drug addicts and I have a family member that has had a drug addiction. This is something that I have lived through and am all too familiar with. It can be a very painful and difficult thing. I have seen scenario's like Candice's played out over and over again and they rarely end well. It is too late to help Candice but we can help other girls to not make the same bad decisions. Drug addiction is reaching epidemic proportions. This is a worldwide problem and can affect anyone regardless of race, religion, country of origin, etc. When someone is addicted to drugs, it doesn't just affect them. It affects friends, family and even society in general due to crimes committed to feed the drug habit and tax money that is spent to incarcerate and rehab the addicts. Unless we educate ourselves about how to effectively deal with this problem and teach the next generation to make better choices, we are all going to suffer the consequences.

I have no doubt that she was depressed. However, that is never an excuse to use drugs, especially hard drugs like cocaine. It will only make things worse and oftentimes, the depression is worsened by the drug use. It's a vicious cycle. That is one of the main things that we teach addicts in rehab - to stop making excuses for your addiction. I know that sounds mean but it's the cold, hard truth. I realize that people have good intentions when they try to come up with reasons to excuse an addict's behavior but, unfortunately, that does not help the problem and often makes it worse. This can be a very difficult thing to accept, especially if you have a very compassionate nature, but it is necessary because, as we see in this case, people's lives can be at stake.

 

[charlieprk]

With all due respect,I find your sources doubtful except for the Libération article.A few online blogs are not sufficient proof-anyone can write a blog and write whatever they please.Secondly,I don´t believe that you are from the US,someone with such a negative attitude towards women would not survive long in the USA-stating such a heartless analysis of a woman who has died is really cruel.It might be true that she has taken substances,but she was not a foolish girl who is having one-night stands or doesn´t think about her life at all.I believe that she really loved the Prince and that´s why her judgement was blinded.From experience and hearing stories from other people I can tell you that people do a lot of foolish things when they fall in love,nobody is immune to making mistakes,especially when they are in emotional turmoil.
Thirdly,I would like to ask how you think she could climb the balcony if she had taken so much drugs& alcohol and was weighing almost 100 kg?I don´t think it´s possible to do proper movements when you are pumped full with such toxic substances.
Maybe we could start to talk about facts and leave the judgement to god and the law.

This quote

The toxicology reports from Candice's autopsy reported that she had "two grams of alcohol per liter in her blood, traces of cannabis, cocaine and psychotropic " in her body at the time of her death. The psychotropic was possibly Xanax, according to other reports. Quite a deadly combination to say the least.... The report continues, "she weighed 98 kg. She climbed over the balcony. The mixture of alcohol, drugs and cannabis have decreased reflexes and alertness, and dropped by her weight by accident. " "She took anti-depressants. It's a purely accidental death," said a police source.

is from a French police source and was in the Liberation article and in the Irish newspaper. The information about Candice's relationship, her pregnancies and her abortion were from the newspaper sources which claimed to quote from Candice's book. The only thing I quoted from the blog was info about Candice's current husband being expelled from the funeral. All the other information, including that regarding her current husband and his accusations of criminal activities, was from the Libération article. I only referenced the blogs because they contained photos that the newspapers did not have. La vie en rose et noir de Candice - Libération

Secondly,I don´t believe that you are from the US,someone with such a negative attitude towards women would not survive long in the USA-

Please show me where I was negative towards women in general? I was speaking about one woman who made bad choices and whose life ended as a result. Do you deny the French police reports and the eyewitness accounts that were quoted in the police statements? You accuse me of having a negative attitude and yet, in an earlier post, you accused the Saudi Prince of murder. Why is it acceptable for you to do that?

Would not survive long in the US? What in the world is that supposed to mean??? It seems that you know very little about America.

It might be true that she has taken substances,but she was not a foolish girl who is having one-night stands or doesn´t think about her life at all.

Perhaps there is a language issue here and I should use the word "unwise" instead? I never claimed that she had one-night stands. In my opinion, taking drugs is foolish, or unwise, and I will stand by that opinion. Furthermore, I don't know of any counselor, therapist, social worker or spiritual adviser that would stand up and applaud a woman who got pregnant for a second time, out-of-wedlock, by a man who encouraged her to have an abortion the first time around. This is the claim that Candice made herself in her book. If anything, they would do all they could to encourage her to end such a destructive relationship and would tell her that to get pregnant by him again would be unwise.

Thirdly,I would like to ask how you think she could climb the balcony if she had taken so much drugs& alcohol and was weighing almost 100 kg?I don´t think it´s possible to do proper movements when you are pumped full with such toxic substances.
Maybe we could start to talk about facts and leave the judgement to god and the law.

Once again, this is the statement that was released by the toxicology report that was conducted by the French Police and quoted in the French newspaper. Like it or not, these ARE the facts in this case. The quote about her climbing over the balcony was confirmed by two eyewitnesses and recorded in the official French Police report. They also stated that no one else was on the balcony and she was not pushed. The French Police stated that her death was accidental due to being intoxicated and falling while attempting to climb over the balcony. As far as not being able to do that while intoxicated, I can tell you that I used to live in a beach town and it was not uncommon to hear reports of drunk people falling to their deaths while attempting to climb over balconies. Here is an example of such behavior Drunk woman falls trying to hop between hotel balconies, police say - SCNow.com: Local News This particular woman survived but many other people were not so fortunate. Alcohol and cocaine can make people feel uninhibited and invincible which is why they do such unwise things while under their influence.

 

[charlieprk]

By the way, marriages in Islamic Mosques in the US are recognized as marriages as in any other relgious venue. Islamic style of divorce is not recognized, as it has no basis in any legal system, here. You cannot just say I divorce you, there are reprecussions.

.

Perhaps I should clarify this a bit. The Islamic marriage I was referring to is the so-called "secret marriage" where the couple says vows in front of a cleric but it is not registered in the court. An Islamic marriage would be recognized in the US as long as there is a marriage certificate & it was registered in the court. If a marriage was simply done by a Muslim cleric without registering it, it would be referred to by US immigration as a "common-law" marriage. In that case, it may or may not be accepted by immigration officials. Most US states do not recognize common-law marriage.

 

[charlieprk]

Originally Posted by charlieprk
She very foolishly got pregnant by a man that she was not married to. She then got pregnant a SECOND time.
This should not be a problem among Westerners, right? Considered of the view of certain values​​ it is rather a tricky affair.....

This should not be a problem among Westerners, right? Considered of the view of certain values​​ it is rather a tricky affair.....

It depends on what you mean by "Westerners". Perhaps we need a European culture & an American culture thread to go with your UAE culture thread. In general, the culture and values of Europeans and Americans can, at times, be very different. It all depends. Americans tend to be more conservative, especially in the Southern states. In my community, living together without being married is frowned upon. Having a child without being married could be quite scandalous. We have charities called "Crisis Pregnancy Centers" which help women who are caught in those situations and attempt to guide them toward a better path.

BTW: We havn´t special wedding rings for the couple in Arab Gulf countries......

At least you got what I meant. I'll have to try and remember not to use slang on the forums.

But such "religious marriages" are not illegally (means not forbidden), even not by western law. As I know, in western countries you can have a relationship without a marriage. You can live together and a marriage certificate is not required. Correct me if I´m wrong. It seems to be a combination of two very different views (western practise/lifestyle and islamic law) which are connected to a completely new system (marriage under the islamic point of view but without its commitments and with the benefits of western privilege (cohabitation and more outside of legal marriage). Nevertheless advantages and disadvantages are in it too.

Yes, it seems that the modern-day concept of marriage and relationships has become a bit of a quagmire. In America, things like adultery and co-habitating without marriages used to be illegal but those laws are no longer enforced. You will not be arrested for adultery but it usually causes a big scandal and there have been cases where people have been required to resign from political office and/or jobs because of the scandal. As far as co-habitating without marriage, depending on your community & where you live, it may be frowned upon. In most religious or church settings, it is definitely frowned upon and may cause serious repercussions for the individuals involved. A non-married, co-habitating couple generally would not have the same legal rights as a legally married couple. Some states recognize common-law marriage but it is up to the couple to prove that status and that often requires a lot of legal headaches. It's much easier and less expensive to just go and get the marriage certificate.

 

[blauerengel]

I am sorry if I sounded harsh. That was not my intention. I admit that I am very emotional about this subject because because this is something that I am very familiar with because I have counselled drug addicts and I have a family member that has had a drug addiction. This is something that I have lived through and am all too familiar with. It can be a very painful and difficult thing. I have seen scenario's like Candice's played out over and over again and they rarely end well. It is too late to help Candice but we can help other girls to not make the same bad decisions. Drug addiction is reaching epidemic proportions. This is a worldwide problem and can affect anyone regardless of race, religion, country of origin, etc. When someone is addicted to drugs, it doesn't just affect them. It affects friends, family and even society in general due to crimes committed to feed the drug habit and tax money that is spent to incarcerate and rehab the addicts. Unless we educate ourselves about how to effectively deal with this problem and teach the next generation to make better choices, we are all going to suffer the consequences.

I have no doubt that she was depressed. However, that is never an excuse to use drugs, especially hard drugs like cocaine. It will only make things worse and oftentimes, the depression is worsened by the drug use. It's a vicious cycle. That is one of the main things that we teach addicts in rehab - to stop making excuses for your addiction. I know that sounds mean but it's the cold, hard truth. I realize that people have good intentions when they try to come up with reasons to excuse an addict's behavior but, unfortunately, that does not help the problem and often makes it worse. This can be a very difficult thing to accept, especially if you have a very compassionate nature, but it is necessary because, as we see in this case, people's lives can be at stake.

I am very sorry that you have had to deal with cases of substance abuse,the effect it has on people and their family &friends can never be underestimated.

It is also wise to tell women (and MEN!)to think hard before they have children,it is a highly responsible task to raise a family.Therefore you are right in warning girls about dangerous men,but in this case I think it is more complicated than a simple girl falling pregnant and getting in trouble.

As we know now,she has been married by Islamic standards-a wedding bow IMO is a promise to the partner that you want to stay together and have a family.That´s why I get furious when you say that Cohen-Agnine got "foolishly" pregnant.If you are married-no matter under what ritus,it means that your relationship is a more stable one and not just a romantic adventure.
If I were here,I would have probably run away from this toxic relationship,at latest time after the first abortion-when she woke up in that Egyptian hospital. (Now I can put the pieces of information together like a puzzle-because Cohen-Agnine talked about that fateful occasion in that hospital in her interviews and she said that after that she has split up with the man but he could persuade her to come back and she fell in love again.)

The Prince should have talked about his family situation honestly-tell her that she will not be his wife and that he has to marry a cousin which he knew for a long time.
If you get married you have to tell your partner everything that is important to the relationship and anything that might change his decision to live with you for the rest of your life.
So you MUST tell if you have children from other relationships,you had other marriages or in that case that he is expected to marry someone else.

Furthermore,I would like to ask you if you know anything about French law and its stance on drugs & alcohol-do you know that drugs are illegal in most European countries?
You can get high fines or even sentenced to prison if you own,sell,or consume any illegal substances,they are very strict when it comes to breaking that law.

Another thing which I wanted to point out-SUPPOSED her drug addiction that you have found is true,than she would never ever got the custody for her daughter. NEVER EVER!
In that case the Prince would not have had any trouble,he would have just needed a few proofs of her addiction,illustrate her loose and careless lifestyle (including a husband who is drinking-and I have not heard about before,nor has he been mentioned by Telegraph and other trustworthy magazines who would have found out this important detail without any problems.) and he would have got the custody for his daughter straight away.
If you have counselled drug addicts as you have said above,you would probably know that,but as far as I know,she was only taking anti-depressants which is understandable because she had suffered a lot from the seperation of her daughter.

 

[blauerengel]

Thank you in English, Blue Angel, because you are. You have asked very pertinent questions and many of the quotes stated facts are from whom? I, too, believe, if she was that impaired, she probably would have passed out. Marijuana calms people, cocaine, if she took it at all and the alcohol, would have knocked her for a loop.

By the way, marriages in Islamic Mosques in the US are recognized as marriages as in any other relgious venue. Islamic style of divorce is not recognized, as it has no basis in any legal system, here. You cannot just say I divorce you, there are reprecussions.

Yes, she was foolish, who knows what he promised her. They came from different value systems. And she loved her child. That is, really, all she seems to have wanted at the end.

I did not know that the US recognizes religious weddings-in Austria you need a civil marriage (which is usually a very plain event,you just have to sign the papers and than the civil servant will say a few words about marriage or love)-most people chose a civil marriage and than a religious one in a church or a fancy wedding party with lots of guests and celebration.
If you only have a religious wedding,it is as if you have never married at all.Which means that you have no right to inherit,get alimony or be allowed to enter your partners flat after he has died among other things.
So you can get married only religious but it is only a promise of love without any legal consequences.

 

[Imanmajed]

By the way, marriages in Islamic Mosques in the US are recognized as marriages as in any other relgious venue. Islamic style of divorce is not recognized, as it has no basis in any legal system, here. You cannot just say I divorce you, there are reprecussions.

Interesting. Is it true in all U.S. states or only in some of them? When a islamic married couple wants a divorce in U.S., what do they do then?(in the case, that the marriage isn´t registered by the court). In Mrs. Candice and Prince Sattam´s affair, the U.S. law is of no significance, but nevertheless interesting to learn.

In Arabic countries it is also not enough, to speak out the "talaq" (divorce statement of a muslim men) only. You need also a court approval, if you want a legal divorce.

 

[charlieprk]

It is also wise to tell women (and MEN!)to think hard before they have children,it is a highly responsible task to raise a family.Therefore you are right in warning girls about dangerous men,but in this case I think it is more complicated than a simple girl falling pregnant and getting in trouble.

Oh I agree! No doubt, this case is complicated. The unfortunate thing is that most of the evidence is based on a lot of "he said, she said" with very little back it up so we have know way of knowing what the truth is.

As we know now,she has been married by Islamic standards-a wedding bow IMO is a promise to the partner that you want to stay together and have a family.That´s why I get furious when you say that Cohen-Agnine got "foolishly" pregnant.If you are married-no matter under what ritus,it means that your relationship is a more stable one and not just a romantic adventure. If I were here,I would have probably run away from this toxic relationship,at latest time after the first abortion-when she woke up in that Egyptian hospital.

Like you, I would have ran for the hills too...

The only reason that I called it "foolish" was because I thought I read that the marriage didn't take place until after Haya (or is it Aya?) was born. Now I can't seem to find that source. The only quote I can find about a marriage is from the Prince's side where the claim was made that they married in Lebanon (no date given) and subsequently divorced there. I find it odd that I can not find a quote from Candice regarding her marriage given her candidness to speak about everything else. Is it possible that they were never actually married and the Prince lied to save face and avoid having his daughter viewed as illegitimate? Then I saw this quote in a previous post "There were plans that they get married but short before the wedding plans were finalized she got the information that he has to marry his cousin who would than be the Prince´s first and official wife.Cohen-Agnine did´t want to be hidden like a shame and live the life of a mistress and therefore she went back to Europe because the prospect of being a secret wife was completely unacceptable to her." So she wasn't going to marry him until 2006??? I also found this quote from Candice's attorney:

This is a total removal of the child to the mother" , explains Mr. Laurence Tarquiny-Charpentier, counsel for Candice. "Besides [the prince], will work in the falsification of documents assigned to the custody of his daughter" , he argues. However, Aya is a child born out of wedlock and according to Islamic law "all natural child born out of wedlock is automatically awarded to the mother" , says Mr Tarquiny. To overcome this difficulty, Prince Sattam have produced false documents, making believe "marriage, divorce and legitimacy of the child" , says the lawyer. "We had to fix the rights of Aya, so I is a procedure in summary proceedings before the family court " , she says, "we won the case, the decision recognizes the [illicit international e] of the child by the father" . " "With this judgment, there is a legitimate demand of the mother"
Read more at DÉPLACEMENT ILLICITE INTERNATIONAL D'ENFANTS: Une mère se bat pour récupérer sa petite princesse saoudienne - LexTimes.fr

At this point, I am thoroughly confused. It seems like Candice and the Prince are contradicting each other regarding the marriage and I'm not sure that I can believe either side. What really happened is anyone's guess....

The Prince should have talked about his family situation honestly-tell her that she will not be his wife and that he has to marry a cousin which he knew for a long time.
If you get married you have to tell your partner everything that is important to the relationship and anything that might change his decision to live with you for the rest of your life.
So you MUST tell if you have children from other relationships,you had other marriages or in that case that he is expected to marry someone else.

I agree. I'm not excusing the Prince's behavior and, quite frankly, I think he comes off as an arrogant jerk with very questionable moral standards. It just shows that you really need to know who you are getting involved in a relationship with before you even attempt to bring children into the mix. It seems that both of them simply acted on their passions and gave little thought to the consequences of their actions. It's a really a shame that that religion is being made such a big deal of in this case when it appears that neither party had any inclination of living up to the tenets of their so-called faith.

Furthermore,I would like to ask you if you know anything about French law and its stance on drugs & alcohol-do you know that drugs are illegal in most European countries?
You can get high fines or even sentenced to prison if you own,sell,or consume any illegal substances,they are very strict when it comes to breaking that law.

I'm not familiar with French or EU law but I know that just because something is illegal doesn't mean that people still won't do it. The US has very stiff penalties for drug use. It is not unheard of to hear of people convicted of drug possession to receive sentences of 20 years to life (depending on the drug, the amount and prior convictions). That doesn't seem to stop people though and many convicts will leave jail and then go right back out and start using again. It goes on and on. Saudi Arabia has incredibly strict laws about drug use and yet they seem to be having an epidemic of drug use and possession Does Saudi have world's biggest amphetamine habit? - CNN

Another thing which I wanted to point out-SUPPOSED her drug addiction that you have found is true,than she would never ever got the custody for her daughter. NEVER EVER!
In that case the Prince would not have had any trouble,he would have just needed a few proofs of her addiction,illustrate her loose and careless lifestyle (including a husband who is drinking-and I have not heard about before,nor has he been mentioned by Telegraph and other trustworthy magazines who would have found out this important detail without any problems.) and he would have got the custody for his daughter straight away.
If you have counselled drug addicts as you have said above,you would probably know that,but as far as I know,she was only taking anti-depressants which is understandable because she had suffered a lot from the seperation of her daughter.

This is the main thing that shocked and infuriated me and caused a lot of questions. If adults want to ruin their own lives that's on them. But, when children are involved I tend to get emotional. I have no reason to doubt the police toxicology report so I will comment based on that.

I agree wholeheartedly that if she was using drugs that she should never have been given custody. Since we have no way of knowing what evidence was presented in court, we don't know if such allegations were presented. Maybe they were presented but were rejected by the judge for some reason. Maybe the Prince did not know about her drug use. Is it possible that Prince was also using drugs & alcohol and neglected to make allegations against Candice because his own alcohol and/or drug abuse would be brought to light? Did the Prince lock Candice in an attempt to help her overcome her addiction? Was she even locked up at all or was that just a lie? The questions are endless....

We don't know if Candice's drug use was long-term or something that just recently started. IMO, the combination of drugs and the amount of alcohol (.2%) lead me to suspect that she may have had long-term issues. The extent of those issues is impossible to know. The fact that she would use those drugs when she was so close to visiting her daughter also suggests a serious addiction and/or mental problem. No doubt, she needed to be in treatment for both her depression and her substance abuse issues. Whether she would have accepted or rejected treatment is anyone's guess.

This is pure speculation but I wonder if this case simply became a diplomatic issue between the two countries with both countries attempting to exert their sovereignty and little thought was given to the child. Saudi Arabia does not abide by the Hague Convention which would have made this case easier to resolve. It's difficult to claim kidnapping when the mother willingly took the daughter to Saudi Arabia and, under Saudi law, the father had every right to keep the child there and not return her. The French would see it differently and the whole thing just ends up in an endless game of tug-of-war. From a purely legal perspective, it's difficult to say who is right and who is wrong. All I know is that this whole case has given me a complete headache.

 

[Imanmajed]

I am sorry if I sounded harsh. That was not my intention. I admit that I am very emotional about this subject because because this is something that I am very familiar with because I have counselled drug addicts and I have a family member that has had a drug addiction.

I have no doubt that she was depressed. However, that is never an excuse to use drugs, especially hard drugs like cocaine. It will only make things worse and oftentimes, the depression is worsened by the drug use. It's a vicious cycle. That is one of the main things that we teach addicts in rehab - to stop making excuses for your addiction. I know that sounds mean but it's the cold, hard truth. I realize that people have good intentions when they try to come up with reasons to excuse an addict's behavior but, unfortunately, that does not help the problem and often makes it worse. This can be a very difficult thing to accept, especially if you have a very compassionate nature, but it is necessary because, as we see in this case, people's lives can be at stake.

Then you know, that every addiction has a story. A biography is not an excuse, but an explanation..... In the regular rehab it is certainly true that addicts have no valid excuses, for they would turn the wheel incessantly, described by you. Indeed a rehabilitation should stop the self-deception, even it is very hard. But in Mrs. Candice´s case probably there were no rehab. Therefore, she was not even at the point we talk in the moment and so we should not condemn her. In the discussion about this interesting case it seems important to me not to forget the respect for the deceased. The blame should not stand in the foreground.