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  #61  
Old 02-24-2013, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
I don't know all the particulars of the case, but from what i read on wiki and in your discussion here, my question would be:

why was this case tried in France and not in KSA (where i think the alleged kidnap occured)?
Good question! As already discussed before, she would have no chance in KSA to get custody for her child. I think, that Mrs. Candice is a French national, who lives in France and she has assumed that there is a bigger chance to get their child back before a French court until she realized that it was a dead end.

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to the ignorant bystander (=me) it seems that the difference in laws in both countries is totally significant in this case...
You get it! Thats the problem here.
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  #62  
Old 02-24-2013, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by blauerengel View Post
Is here in the thread someone, who is fluent in French and can translate the content of the interview in English? I would like to understand what she said.
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  #63  
Old 02-24-2013, 09:13 AM
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When I have time,I will translate some parts of it,I am not a native speaker but I understand some French and could look up some words.

To your comment:"Donīt she know that, before she get pregnant from him? (Please do not throw with poisoned austrian cakes towards me now.... "

I would dare to say that HE understood his culture,traditions and family (including their expectation that he should marry a proper Muslim girl/Saudi princess/his cousin) much more than Miss CAC and should have told her "Darling,we can have a nice time together but you will never be my (official )wife because I have obligations towards my family and they would not accept you as who you are. Than she could have said "Sorry,I only want to have a serious relationship" or "Yes,that sounds great!"-she could have made an informed decision rather than waking up to a nightmare or stumbling into a situation she canīt handle and a culture she doesnīt understand.

In Europe we do have a lot of multi-cultural couples and different-faith weddings,it is not considered anything special.If you look at other Royal families you will see foreign royal ladies like P.Maxima (Argentina),CP Mary (Tasmania) or Noor &Toni Gardiner (US/GB) and they are very well-integrated into their new families and accepted,even adored by the general public.

PS:I would never throw a Sacher cake towards you,chocolate cream cakes and Malakoff cake would be much better for that case;-)
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  #64  
Old 02-24-2013, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by blauerengel View Post
When I have time,I will translate some parts of it,I am not a native speaker but I understand some French and could look up some words.
Thanks, it would be very nice from you. A summary with the most important points is sufficient.
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  #65  
Old 02-24-2013, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by blauerengel View Post

To your comment:"Donīt she know that, before she get pregnant from him? (Please do not throw with poisoned austrian cakes towards me now.... "

PS:I would never throw a Sacher cake towards you,chocolate cream cakes and Malakoff cake would be much better for that case;-)
With you, I'd like to go out to eat cake ..... is determined an interesting evening .....But perhaps we will not have a long discussion ....... in view of the throwing speeds of some cakes ...... I joking! Iīm harmless!
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  #66  
Old 02-24-2013, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by blauerengel View Post
I would dare to say that HE understood his culture,traditions and family (including their expectation that he should marry a proper Muslim girl/Saudi princess/his cousin) much more than Miss CAC and should have told her "Darling,we can have a nice time together but you will never be my (official )wife because I have obligations towards my family and they would not accept you as who you are. Than she could have said "Sorry,I only want to have a serious relationship" or "Yes,that sounds great!"-she could have made an informed decision rather than waking up to a nightmare or stumbling into a situation she canīt handle and a culture she doesnīt understand.
Very wise! And the best idea what someone can have in such a situation. Unfortunately, love is blind for the dark days which will come after the love is gone.

Quote:
In Europe we do have a lot of multi-cultural couples and different-faith weddings,it is not considered anything special. If you look at other Royal families you will see foreign royal ladies like P. Maxima (Argentina), CP Mary (Tasmania) or Noor & Toni Gardiner (US/GB) and they are very well-integrated into their new families and accepted,even adored by the general public.
A well-integration in the RF of KSA is possible and will be accepted by the public - it presupposes the willingness of both to want to do that with all the consequences that entails. That often lacks.......especially when the two or one of the both are not serious enough with the relationship.
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  #67  
Old 02-24-2013, 11:23 AM
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I find it rather amusing that it has been asserted that it's not kidnapping to take a child away from one of its parents, if the party taking the child is the other parent. That's called "custodial interference", which is a crime, at least in this part of the world. If I have a child with a man, and I am granted primary physical and legal custody of the child and their father takes that child away from me.....that's kidnapping. No court in this country would say otherwise. I'm not the least bit surprised that the Middle East is behind the Western world when it comes to that.

Also, if you honestly think Saudi Arabia (and other Middle Eastern countries) doesn't treat women like they're less than human, you must not be very well versed in the actions of some of your people. I understand that the Qu'ran is not anti-woman, but a lot of people who claim to follow it are, and when 99% of those people are in the position of making laws for their respective countries.....exactly what kind of fair shake are women supposed to get? Islam isn't the problem, Muslims are not the problem, the corruption of Islam is the problem. Just the corruption of Christianity here in the United States is a problem (see: the Westboro Baptist Church nutjobs). A Jewish foreign woman? She didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of coming out of this the winner.
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  #68  
Old 02-24-2013, 12:25 PM
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Sister Morphine you hit the nail on the head. Your points are perfect.
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  #69  
Old 02-24-2013, 12:35 PM
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While I respect Arabic/Middle Eastern culture, I am in full agreement with Sister Morphine.

It was a kidnapping, plain and simple. The Prince went against a court ruling, took a child away from her mother, and (whether directly or indirectly) contributed to Candice's death. Her blood is on his hands, even if it were an accident or suicide - and I don't believe the latter for a second.
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  #70  
Old 02-24-2013, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sister morphine View Post
also, if you honestly think saudi arabia (and other middle eastern countries) doesn't treat women like they're less than human, you must not be very well versed in the actions of some of your people. I understand that the qu'ran is not anti-woman, but a lot of people who claim to follow it are, and when 99% of those people are in the position of making laws for their respective countries.....exactly what kind of fair shake are women supposed to get? Islam isn't the problem, muslims are not the problem, the corruption of islam is the problem. Just the corruption of christianity here in the united states is a problem (see: The westboro baptist church nutjobs). A jewish foreign woman? She didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of coming out of this the winner.
thank you !!!!!!!!
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  #71  
Old 02-24-2013, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
. No father can care for a child like a mother, .
I know quite a few people who would dispute that statement.
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  #72  
Old 02-24-2013, 02:33 PM
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Sister Morphine,I wanted to tell you how much I appreciate your argument regarding religions-unfortunately no matter if itīs Islam,Catholicism or Judaism there are a few men (and when I write that I mean MEN!Patriarchy is in almost every religion) who make the decisions and tell us whatīs right and what is wrong,sometimes in complete disagreement with the holy books of that religious community.
They destroy the credibility of the whole religious group and every decent muslim/christian/jew has to stand up and tell them that this is not what we believe in!
Religion is about love,understanding & peace and it should give us something to guide us in our daily life and spiritual search for the truth.Religion is a way of trying to find out how the world works and seeking to explain all the many miracles that science canīt find an answer to.


Currently I am watching a channel dedicated to "Rendez-moi ma fille" (Give me back my daughter),the book CCA wrote and I am trying to get a transcript of the interview because my French hasnīt been used much since school and it would be a lot easier if I had a written transcript.

Hereīs the channel,unfortunately itīs in French: Chaîne de rendezmoimafille - YouTube
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  #73  
Old 02-24-2013, 03:23 PM
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A little bit I can tell you from listening to the interviews (it may be that I misunderstood some things but I am trying to do my best):
She has met the Prince when she was in London in 1998,Cohen was 18 back than and her daughter Aya arrived three years later (enough time to tell her that he could not make her his official wife and explain why...)there was something about a hospital in Egypt where she woke up and afterwards she went back to Paris but I didnīt quite understand all of it-was it after giving birth or did she have an accident? However,that made her reevaluate her relationship but the Prince tried to win her back and she sais that the "love came back" and he provided her with a princess life-own appartment in the Palace in Ryadh,chauffeur etc.There were plans that they get married but short before the wedding plans were finalised she got the information that he has to marry his cousin who would than be the Princeīs first and official wife.Cohen-Agnine didnīt want to be hidden like a shame and live the life of a mistress and therefore she went back to Europe because the prospct of being a secret wife was completely unacceptable to her.So she went back to Europe and got information about what she could do in her situation,how can she get back her daughter and her family and friends were very worried for her.
She wrote that book and talked in many tv-shows,connected with human rights groupd and organisations that helped women who were in such a bad situation where they are denied their HUMAN RIGHT of seeing their own child.
In September 2008 the Prince invited mother and daughter to Ryadh to "talk about everything" and people warned her to go back but she did and than she was kept like a prisoner,she didnīt get the chance to wash herself,to brush her teeth or have clean drinking water.She was only given bad food and her escape was managed because a maid left a door open.Thatīs the time when Prince S. abducted her daughter Aya and CC had to go to the embassy to manage to get out of the country alive.The French ambassador helped her to contact the French Foreign Minister (ex-president Sarkozy) who tried to get Aya back to France who was by that time living in the Palace in Ryadh where she sometimes was allowed to have brief telephone talks with her mother.The Prince denied any wrongdoing (quel surprise!) and said that CC married Prince al-Saud under Islamic law and converted to Islam (she was jewish before) so she should follow the so-called Sharia (which can be interpreted by Muslim scholars in many different ways) and they could share custody.Officially she had the option to come-and-go as she likes but how can you do that if there is a warrant against you because you (CC has accepted Islam) have converted to Judaism which is a crime in KSA....
so than she went to the French court and won the custody battle-however the prince didnīt follow the courtīs jurisdication.
She wrote the book and tried to raise as much awareness and media attention possible to get back her daughter (the book is also available in English by the way).

At the age of only 35 years,one day before she should make the final document that would enable her to get back her daughter,she fell from the balcony in Paris after she reportedly told neighbours and friends she is threatened and she doesnīt feel safe.

from an article:"On 21 August, the police announced that Cohen-Ahnine's death was an accident. A witness confirmed seeing her trying to move from one window to another."This was interpreted by the police that she has tried to flee from someone who was following her and she tried to get into the other appartment because she needed help.


The toxicology test results are not finished yet but my verdict is clear & I can just join Jean-Claude Elfassi, co-author of Ms Cohen-Ahnin's book who wrote in his blog on August 17: "I can only show my disgust at the slowness of the investigating judge in charge of her case, who after three years of investigating never delivered an arrest warrant for Prince Sattam al-Saud".
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  #74  
Old 02-24-2013, 05:05 PM
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Thank you all for your clear and pursuasive words on this subject. I will retract that a mother can care for a child better than a father. There are, plenty, of good fathers, but I do not think this is the case.
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  #75  
Old 02-24-2013, 05:08 PM
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Found some more interesting information on telegraph,a trustworthy newspaper:
For the past three-and-a-half years, the prince has kept Aya in a Riyadh palace despite efforts by the French foreign ministry and President Nicolas Sarkozy's office to resolve the issue.

But the French court ruling appears to have had no effect on the prince. “What do I care of Sarkozy?” he is cited as telling Nouvel Observateur magazine. “If need be, I’ll go like [Osama] bin Laden and hide in the mountains with Aya.”

From an Arabic magazine:In 2012, Sattam married Governor of Jazan Prince Mohammed bin Nasser bin Abdulaziz's daughter in Riyadh.
...it must be really difficult for the Princess-I would be very scared about my life if I were in her position,if he has treated his own ex-lover like that he is probably treating her no different.
Oh,maybe he canīt intimidate her because she is Arab and her father is an influental man but the story of Cohen-Agnine will teach any women to stay away from Arab men.
Of course there are exceptions but the chances that you meet such an ......(fill in the blank) are too dangerous to risk a try.

By researching I found out that converting from Islam to Judaism is punishable by death in KSA,is that true?
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  #76  
Old 02-24-2013, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by blauerengel View Post
The Prince denied any wrongdoing (quel surprise!) and said that CC married Prince al-Saud under Islamic law and converted to Islam (she was jewish before) so she should follow the so-called Sharia (which can be interpreted by Muslim scholars in many different ways) and they could share custody.Officially she had the option to come-and-go as she likes but how can you do that if there is a warrant against you because you (CC has accepted Islam) have converted to Judaism which is a crime in KSA....
Thank you for your great work. Sad story, I think. There is a lot happening. A comprehension question: Was she a Jew, then converted to Islam and then later reconverted to Judaism? Correct me, if I'm wrong.
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  #77  
Old 02-24-2013, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by blauerengel View Post
By researching I found out that converting from Islam to Judaism is punishable by death in KSA,is that true?
Yes, that true. In KSA the converting from Islam to a other religion or non-religion is punishable by death.
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  #78  
Old 02-24-2013, 05:45 PM
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She is from a Jewish family-if your mother is Jewish her child is jewish as well (matrilinear) and thatīs probably the reason why she converted to Islam for her husband so that their daughter would be Muslim.
As much as I understand it the Prince fabricated a document hat said she has converted back to Judaism so that she could not go back to Saudi Arabia!
Very smart and shameless plot IMO.

If you have ever been to Israel you canīt enter the UAE-so supposed you want to get rid of your girlfriend you send her passport to Israel,let them put an Israeli seal on it and she will not be able to legally immigrate to Dubai again.

Correction:There are chances you can get in with an Israeli stamp:
Israeli stamp in passport Dubai

It was probably amended because Dubai is used as a hub by Emirate airlines and they would loose a lot of passengers if they didnīt change that law.
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  #79  
Old 02-24-2013, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by blauerengel View Post
......but the story of Cohen-Agnine will teach any women to stay away from Arab men.
Of course there are exceptions but the chances that you meet such an ......(fill in the blank) are too dangerous to risk a try.
Unifications are not a good way. There are good and bad men in every culture. I think, it is wrong to generalize. You will find very good mannered men in the Arab world.

A little advice of an arabian man: Before you, dear western women, dive into a relationship with an Arab you should:
a) know, who is your lover (his family, his character, his manners, ....)
b) be aware that the "romantic allure with a man from an exotic and unknown country" has downsides too, which you does not expect or which you do not know (an amorous adventure can be exciting, but also hurt)
c) before a real relationship is runing, search for information about the traditions, culture, rules in the society, family life, heritage and the legal situation of the homecountry of your beloved
d) expand your knowledge about Islam (if he is Muslim), even if you're not planning to converted to Islam
e) make this relationship only serious, if you are willing to get involved to his culture (if necessary)
f) test before, whether you are feel comfortable with the rules of life of his culture and traditions
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Old 02-24-2013, 06:17 PM
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Thank you for this piece of advice and rules.
But may I ask a question, if an European (or other non-muslim) woman marries a Muslim man, without converting and keeping her religion, would their marriage be considered fully legal from Islamic point of view?
Is obligatory that children from such an union should be raised in Islam?
Thank You in advance.
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