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  #41  
Old 02-23-2013, 05:55 PM
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I will ask you in a different way,Imanmajed:What would you do if your sister had a relationship with letīs say a German Catholic man and after they have a child he drops her becaus she is Muslim or because she doesnīt understand his culture and takes away your niece-she goes to court and receives the right to see her daughter but this man doesnīt let her see her child...what would you say?

Forgot to add-the man leaves your sister because he wants to marry a blonde,Catholic woman who is from the same social circle as he is.
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  #42  
Old 02-23-2013, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Imanmajed View Post
You can not kidnapped someone for whom you bear the responsibility because it is your own child. You can take the children with you. But that is due to the matter of parenting.

But I agree with you, that it is the best way to make a agreement that they can both share custody and see their daughter. This requires a willingness to negotiate and compromise. Maybe both or one of the two were not willing to do so.

Sorry,laws are not made by intuiton or whims but it is a Federal offence if you kidnap children and it is also punishable if you donīt let the other parent see the child,but usually there are more men who have to fight & go to court to be able to see their children after a divorce.

To back up my claim please read this:http://www.austin-criminaldefenselaw...Own-Child.aspx
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  #43  
Old 02-23-2013, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by blauerengel View Post
Sorry,you are defending a criminal-the Prince ignored the ruling of the French court,so you have to accept that some poeple get offended when the law is treated with disrespect.The prince has to follow the laws even if he is rich and belongs to a powerful family with a certain set of traditions and believes.If I was bathing topless in Dubai people would raise hell,but if a man is kidnapping his daughter,ignoring the law,killing a woman you defend him?You should really think deeply about whoīs side you are taking,this is not about Islam vs. Western values or feminism vs patriarchy but basic human rights.No child should be taken from their mother unless she is in a state that she canīt look after them and nobody should be killed or forced into a suicide because he/she comes from a different class,has a different nationality or a different religion or doesnīt fit into oneīs plans.
Like Princess Diana and Prince Charles the couple could have shared custody-it would have been difficult but if there is a will,there is a way.
Well, you're forgetting one important point. First of all, we have two totally different systems of law. Both systems intervene in the process, not only the French law. In Saudi law the father has sole custody of the child. So that he does not commit a crime if the child lives with him. He can automatically ignored French law, because he donīt live there nor is he a citizen of France. There is no agreement on simplification of such cases between France and SA. This means that custody should be awarded to the mother by a Saudi Arabian court too. Only than the prince become a criminal if he ignored the decision of the Saudi court. What I can accept is when you see, that two different negotiations must to be brought into conformity, before a valid and legal statement can assume.
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  #44  
Old 02-23-2013, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by blauerengel View Post
Sorry,laws are not made by intuiton or whims but it is a Federal offence if you kidnap children and it is also punishable if you donīt let the other parent see the child,but usually there are more men who have to fight & go to court to be able to see their children after a divorce.

To back up my claim please read this:Austin Criminal Lawyer | Kidnapping Your Own Child
What we do now, if this is a crime in your country but not in my country??? Which of us is more correct?
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  #45  
Old 02-23-2013, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Imanmajed View Post
Well, you're forgetting one important point. First of all, we have two totally different systems of law. Both systems intervene in the process, not only the French law. In Saudi law the father has sole custody of the child. So that he does not commit a crime if the child lives with him. He can automatically ignored French law, because he donīt live there nor is he a citizen of France. There is no agreement on simplification of such cases between France and SA. This means that custody should be awarded to the mother by a Saudi Arabian court too. Only than the prince become a criminal if he ignored the decision of the Saudi court. What I can accept is when you see, that two different negotiations must to be brought into conformity, before a valid and legal statement can assume.
I believe it is important to know a)where was the girl born&her citizenship
b)where exactly the girl was kidnapped
c)even if he didnīt want to accept the French law (which,as a matter of fact you canīt chose-you are judged in the country where the case/crime has happened and not by your own choice because you prefer a certain legal system) he should have allowed a fair court hearing to arrange the matters in a Saudi Arabian court
d)as far as I know the investigation of her death has not been closed until now so we canīt say anything about that
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  #46  
Old 02-23-2013, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Imanmajed View Post
What we do now, if this is a crime in your country but not in my country??? Which of us is more correct?
It is always judged by the country you are in-supposed you are married to a German woman in Berlin you canīt just take your child with you,you are also not allowed to have multiple wives because polygamy is illegal in Europe.
I believe in your country you could pretty much do as you please-marry up to four wives and take the child away from her mother! (But guess who would come and get you!I would send you a poisoned Sacher cake and make sure you donīt forget your responsibilities towards your wife and child)
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  #47  
Old 02-23-2013, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by blauerengel View Post
I will ask you in a different way,Imanmajed:What would you do if your sister had a relationship with letīs say a German Catholic man and after they have a child he drops her becaus she is Muslim or because she doesnīt understand his culture and takes away your niece-she goes to court and receives the right to see her daughter but this man doesnīt let her see her child...what would you say?
Let we the religious impossibility of this case aside, then: First I would have to tell her, that it is the right of the father to live with his child in Germany. She should know that the kid belongs to both countries and both families. Second I would encourage her to find a mutually acceptable solution together with the father and his family. If this is impossible, then I would tell her that she has to go to the German family court and search for her right in the country where her child live with the father currently. If all that fails, then God has chosen a different path for my sister and her child. We have to accept what happened if we love the child and trust in God's foresight.
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  #48  
Old 02-23-2013, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by blauerengel View Post
It is always judged by the country you are in-supposed you are married to a German woman in Berlin you canīt just take your child with you,you are also not allowed to have multiple wives because polygamy is illegal in Europe.
In family matters it is always judged by the country in which the involved persons have the center of their lifes. Legal aspects of the country, whose citizens are involved in the family law case will be also observed if the persons constantly living in different countries. A polygamous marriage in Europe is possible, but only one wife will be legal (acknowledged under law).
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  #49  
Old 02-23-2013, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by blauerengel View Post
But guess who would come and get you!I would send you a poisoned Sacher cake and make sure you donīt forget your responsibilities towards your wife and child
WOW, WOW, WOW, that's tough! Please, no.... do not send me a poisoned Sacher cake. I have a better suggestion: Let us eat a healthy Sacher cake together, drink an Arabic coffee (or tea as you like) and talk in peace above all else........Wait a minute! Although actually we have no children together, right? And if I'm not mistaken, we're not even married. Right? Okay, it's time to calm down..... . For you:
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  #50  
Old 02-23-2013, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by blauerengel View Post
I believe it is important to know a)where was the girl born&her citizenship
b)where exactly the girl was kidnapped
c)even if he didnīt want to accept the French law (which,as a matter of fact you canīt chose-you are judged in the country where the case/crime has happened and not by your own choice because you prefer a certain legal system) he should have allowed a fair court hearing to arrange the matters in a Saudi Arabian court
d)as far as I know the investigation of her death has not been closed until now so we canīt say anything about that
Correct: We have to be patient until the investigation of her death will be closed. Now we can only assume what should be a possible explanation of her death. At the moment, both are innocent until the contrary is proved.
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  #51  
Old 02-23-2013, 07:37 PM
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Thanks for the inspiring and lively debate. All of your posts created a enlightening discussion about the whole case. Have a nice day or night!
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  #52  
Old 02-24-2013, 01:05 AM
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A Saudi Prince can buy an outcome to any investigation, especially in France. No father can care for a child like a mother, especially a father who has several wives and umpteen children. This child will never have the love her mother would have given her. So, as you have stated, the child's welfare should have been the biggest concern, not the father's ego.
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  #53  
Old 02-24-2013, 05:38 AM
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Countess,I believe that the French court ruled that the mother be able to see her child but the Prince ignored it.He didnīt buy the court,he just didnīt follow the court decision which by itself is a blatant act of disrespect towards our legal system.If you donīt agree with a judicial decision you have to appeal against a conviction.
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  #54  
Old 02-24-2013, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
A Saudi Prince can buy an outcome to any investigation, especially in France. No father can care for a child like a mother, especially a father who has several wives and umpteen children. This child will never have the love her mother would have given her. So, as you have stated, the child's welfare should have been the biggest concern, not the father's ego.
Allow me to modify your words a little: No one can care for a child like a mother and a father. The child's welfare should have been the biggest concern, not the father's or the mothers ego. Selfishness can be found in mothers also. I'm not saying that this would have been true to Mrs. Candice, but it's a one-sided view, always to proclaim only the right of the mother. And definitely this child will have the love of her father and his big family. Maybe this is the best for the girl.
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  #55  
Old 02-24-2013, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by blauerengel View Post
Countess,I believe that the French court ruled that the mother be able to see her child but the Prince ignored it.He didnīt buy the court,he just didnīt follow the court decision which by itself is a blatant act of disrespect towards our legal system.If you donīt agree with a judicial decision you have to appeal against a conviction.
Why Prince Sattam should follow the French court decision? He and the child are not living in France, he and the girl are not nationals and between both countries a agreement in this matter does not exist. It can also be defined as follows: It is a "blatant act of disrespect" towards the Saudi right, which has awarded the childīs custody to the father. What I meant is: The mother should have to sue for custody of her child in both countries. She had sued only in France but this is not enough in such a binational issue. Judicial decisions of both countries are necessary. A single national judgment of a state alone is not effective in such family cases, if you want to resolve the matter definitively.
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  #56  
Old 02-24-2013, 06:49 AM
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If it comes to various court decisions, then you can forget both judicial statements. Both judgments (France and SA) would then have no effect or would can be applied only to the scope of the country where the decision was made. Such family law cases between states without agreements are extremely difficult to handle.

Unfortunately, it's too late for that. Now can only be examined yet whether Mrs. Candice has killed herself or whether someone else has committed murder or/and whether a third party negligence is present.
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  #57  
Old 02-24-2013, 06:57 AM
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Imanmajed,I donīt think you are as naive as your statement makes us believe.The mother would hava had no chance in a Saudi court-
1)sheīs female
2)she is Jewish-a fact that canīt be overrated in this case because if she had been Muslim the whole relationship would have been completely different and she might have been accepted by the Royal family.Her faith was one of the main obstacles,I am sure that you know how much Israel and Jews are hated in KSA and Sheikh Hamdan from Dubai also wrote a poem where he tells us how much he despises Zionism.(Candice-Cohen converted to Islam to fit into her new family and as a gesture of goodwill towards her husband).
When you take Jordan for instance-two of King Husseins wives were not Arabic but nevertheless accepted and made Queen.(Noor had family relations to Arabs because her father was a Syrian from Aleppo & sheīs practicing Islam but Toni Gardiner was British as far as I know.)
3)she is an ordinary citizen but the Prince a member of the RF and the RF decides the laws...
4)they were not married

So to tell her to go to a saudi court is like telling somebody whoīs house is burning to stop it by pouring some oil on it.

and again:If you donīt agree with a judicial decision you have to appeal against a conviction with a lawyer. If you just do what you like& ignore the court judgement-even IF you are right,you are acting against the law.
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  #58  
Old 02-24-2013, 07:30 AM
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You speak out of what I thought. I did not set obvious, but remain at a general theory. But it is true what you say. Usually the father always get custody of his child in KSA (even if he had a Saudi ex-wife). Exception: the man can not take care for the child due to illness, personal absence, leaving Islam, delinquency and so on. Since both were not married her chance is less than zero, to get the custody for her child in KSA. She also risked an indictment because extramarital relations are forbidden and punished in KSA. Probably this was crucial factors for committed suicide.

To the question of religion: It is not necessary to change her religion, unless she wanted to do it out of free will. Muslim man can marry jewish or christian ladies as well as muslim women.
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  #59  
Old 02-24-2013, 07:51 AM
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3)she is an ordinary citizen but the Prince a member of the RF and the RF decides the laws...
Donīt she know that, before she get pregnant from him? (Please do not throw with poisoned austrian cakes towards me now.... )

Quote:
and again:If you donīt agree with a judicial decision you have to appeal against a conviction with a lawyer. If you just do what you like& ignore the court judgement-even IF you are right,you are acting against the law.
Thats correct if you live in country, where the decision was made. But which is the impact of judicial decision in family cases, if the person is not resident in the country? Which French judges want to fly to KSA and visit the Prince to enforce their decision abroad - against the Saudi law?

In family law cases that exceed national boundaries, single judgements of only one state are for the rubbish bin, if not all parties reside in a country and/or show no willingness to find a consensus.
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  #60  
Old 02-24-2013, 08:28 AM
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I don't know all the particulars of the case, but from what i read on wiki and in your discussion here, my question would be:

why was this case tried in France and not in KSA (where i think the alleged kidnap occured)?
to the ignorant bystander (=me) it seems that the difference in laws in both countries is totally significant in this case...

the most important thing ofcourse is that the child is well taken care of and i don't think there has been any proof in this thread that that's not the case...
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