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  #21  
Old 10-07-2012, 03:40 PM
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How international issues further complicated child custody cases - Telegraph
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  #22  
Old 02-19-2013, 09:37 AM
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Sad story: When parents finish their relationship, then a child should never be their point of contention. Perhaps one of the parents wins - but at what cost? The child will always be the loser of this situation.
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  #23  
Old 02-19-2013, 09:34 PM
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Very sad. And, of course, Saudi Arabia, will allow the abduction of this poor child to be raised in the ignorance of their mother's identity. She was just a woman. Plus, I, believe, the father had the mother murdered, as do the grandparents and rightly so.
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Old 02-19-2013, 09:46 PM
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We do not know what happened. So we should not condemn someone whose guilt has not been proven. God knows the truth. And if Prince Sattam as the ex-husband/ former friend take the blame for the death of the woman, he must be accountable before God someday.

Under applicable law in the most arab countries, a child belongs to the father and his family. This does not mean that a child to be raised in the ignorance of its mother's identity.
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  #25  
Old 02-20-2013, 09:53 PM
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No we don't and you are correct. This child will never know who her mother was and what happened. That is the reality. You can espouse what you wish. Her grandparents, unless, they can prevail somewhere or abudct her will lose her. Yes, God will judge, by then it will not matter to the other family. Unfortunately, the right of the father, which is bizarre, overides all. Wealth and stealth protects murderers. The laws that protect him, never protected her. Equal rights under the law do not exist in the Kingdom.
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  #26  
Old 02-22-2013, 12:13 PM
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The daughter will grow up to a woman without mother's love. I'm sure she will ask questions and seek answers one day. Then her father and his family have to face these questions. Perhaps she finds the truth in this way.

The thing about the law is always difficult in all countries of the world. Sometimes you are right and it does not get attributed to you. But back to this case: Who is entitled to a child? Did one of the parents (whether man or woman) has a right to raise a child alone? (Of course, there are exceptions, where it is more appropriate to leave a child with only one parent. But I think, that was not the case here). You have to see more from the perspective of the child. In the parents dispute about a child , the childīs rights have been infringed - not the right of the mother or the father. A minor is dependent on the willingness of its parents, to act together in best interest of their child even if they no longer have a relationship.
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  #27  
Old 02-22-2013, 09:54 PM
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Nice try. If she were not a girl, being raised in a country which has very lttle use for women, I would say, of course. To take a child, bring them to a nation where they will be second class citizens, princess or not, wow what a sham. No parent has a right over the other, but when one parent may be the murderer or contract murderer, I know, no evidence, wow, what a msytery, then it is not the same. Her father, never considered her real life, being better where she would have complete freedom of choice and be an equal. He cared about his power and cultural demands. And, one day, if she can seek questions, she will run screaming, which is the real pity. This is a terrible story about power and money, which Prince Sattam had plenty and a child who will be denied her rightful relgious identity and human rights as a person, living under a repressive system. Saudi Arabia is not a place where you can ask questions, if you are female.
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  #28  
Old 02-22-2013, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
Nice try. If she were not a girl, being raised in a country which has very lttle use for women, I would say, of course. To take a child, bring them to a nation where they will be second class citizens, princess or not, wow what a sham.
Your interest is more the fact of women's rights than that, what really happened in this case. Right?

Quote:
No parent has a right over the other, but when one parent may be the murderer or contract murderer, I know, no evidence, wow, what a msytery, then it is not the same.
You say it with your own words - no evidence, that Prince Sattam has to do with the death of his ex-wife in personal terms (in psychological terms, he has certainly made his contribution undoubtedly). If she want that the child should live with her, then he has the right to say that he wants it to live with him. It would have been a good idea if both had to agree by consensus - for the good of the child. And that has nothing to do with race, pedigree, religion or gender. Only has to do with parenthood, which contributes responsibility in spite of the separation of the parents as a couple.

Maybe she does have committed suicide, according to police reports. Reason could be that she seemed to recognize that - despite the legal victory - she can`t win the battle for her child at last.

Quote:
Her father, never considered her real life, being better where she would have complete freedom of choice and be an equal. He cared about his power and cultural demands. And, one day, if she can seek questions, she will run screaming, which is the real pity. This is a terrible story about power and money, which Prince Sattam had plenty and a child who will be denied her rightful relgious identity and human rights as a person, living under a repressive system. Saudi Arabia is not a place where you can ask questions, if you are female.
There are many welcome changes. Saudi Arabia may be a very conservative place in many ways. But it is not a prison for women where they are completely deprived of their rights.
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  #29  
Old 02-23-2013, 07:50 AM
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Imanmajed, I would say for people from the western world it is about human rights and the parent and child for whom contact with this eastern royal developed so tragically happen to be female.
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  #30  
Old 02-23-2013, 08:43 AM
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The tragedy is closer to the level of the child. Parents have the responsibility for their own lives. It's still a problem of the preferences of two persons. There is no problem of gender alone. As someone here in the forum already said before, they should think twice about whether they can cope ever and want managed a marriage between two different cultures. When they become parents, both must share the concern for the child - even in case of divorce. This is not easy, if the parents do not agree and when two very different understandings of law collide with each other.

"Women are one half of society which gives birth to the other half so it is as if they are the entire society."
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  #31  
Old 02-23-2013, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
Equal rights under the law do not exist in the Kingdom.
Unfortunately you are right,anyone who says that women have the SAME rights in Saudi Arabia as men are wrong.They donīt even have the same rights on the paper,in Europe we do have the same rights on the paper,just sometimes we have to fight and argue to receive what is fair&just.The old traditions and misconceptions that keep men from accepting women as equal partners are still present(even though Prophet Mohammed was quite a feminist for his time-allowing his wife to fight with him and praising mothers and womenīs work for the society which a lot of men completely forget and ignore!)

I also wanted to quote a witness who has known the mother of the child:
"She was a woman who was a real fighter and a very positive person, and plus, there were plans to see [her daughter] Aya in mid-September. That was her greatest motivation of all."

Supposed she was really depressed,she could not have fought such a hard legal war to win back her child-the pressure must have been enormous and Iīm sure the Saudis tried to intimidate her or give her money to stop her.This lady had an enormous will and she doesnīt show any signs of depression-if she did,she would have killed herself before she won the custody case.Of course none of us was present and knows all the details but to me the case is quite clear.

I hope that a lot of Saudi&Muslim men,especially those with power&money will stand up and say "Shame on you for treating the mother of your child so badly!"

I donīt understand why the Prince could not make an arrangement with the lady like a lot of other men with multiple wives or children born out of the wedlock do.Hopefully the girl will be accepted and loved by her stepmother!
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  #32  
Old 02-23-2013, 10:23 AM
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Sorry to say but the reality is even more shocking: Everywhere in the world women have NOT the SAME rights as men! It is estimated that one in four women (regardless of where the women live) suffers from male-dominated violence and humiliation.

In all countries can be found disadvantage of women. Not only in the purely legal sphere. Sometimes the disadvantages of women are hidden cleverly (by male): in the exploitation of the female body, in the professional equality, in the care of children and the domestic fields, with government support, in the allocation of key positions in politics, in health care, in school education, at ......

The progress on equality of women and men in western countries is still not complete. Regardless of the origin or the religious beliefs of a man: Only a mean man would demean a woman. But a noble man would honor a woman everytime in his life. Perhaps one must encourage women to educate their sons to noble, honorable men.

Often depression remains undetected for a long time. Depression passes through different stages and can reach very different characteristics. The ex-wife of the Saudi prince has taken the legal route in France, in order to secure the custody of her child. But what good is it in Saudi Arabia? Legally, the decision of court in France have no influence on the ability to get her child back in Saudia. I can only guess that she may have realized. Indeed she has triumphed in a section but her victory is irrelevant to the Saudi laws. Maybe that was the reason for her - coupled with pressure or/and threats of her ex-husband and a depression- to commit suicide. But we donīt know in the end.

In summary, it would be become an unmanageable situation for mother and daughter, even if the mother has the legal permission of both countries to raise her child. Her daughter is a member of the ruling family of Saudi Arabia. That alone would have meant that she and her daughter could never have been released to pursue their own path without consultation with the royal family and people that protect the safety of the young lady abroad. She would have to endure to be constantly under the eyes of people who belong to her ex-husband. A normal childhood is impossible under these circumstances. A possible new relationship of the mother with a other man (non Saudi royal) would be also impossible. Such things you would have to consider before you start a relationship with an Saudi prince. No matter such a relationship runs, the life of the non-royal lady will never again be the same as before.

Ultimately it was not a question of gender or womens rights, but rather a question of the status of the ex-husband and the particular circumstances that accompanied this former relationship.
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  #33  
Old 02-23-2013, 12:34 PM
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You are right that starting a relationship with a Saudi Prince was a foolish occurrence. She should have left when she was pregnant and never seen him, again. Who knows what she thought. Most people who knew her said she would never have committed suicide. She loved this child and the Paris Courts awarded her custody. Not that a child stolen and hidden in the SA would have been humanely turned over to her mother. To this man she is just a possession. She deserves better. All women deserve better. Yes, there are problems for women all over, but not like the Muslim nations, especially SA. SA is a prison, of sorts, for women, without walls and bars, but their choices are limited and any man can take those choices away.
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  #34  
Old 02-23-2013, 02:38 PM
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Sorry that I repeat myself,but in the heat of the argument some people may have overread this. I also wanted to quote a witness who has known the mother of the child:

"She was a woman who was a real fighter and a very positive person, and plus, there were plans to see [her daughter] Aya in mid-September. That was her greatest motivation of all."


This was said by somebody who has known the woman in person!The witness knows much more about the dead mother than we do from reading all these articles and it should be taken seriously.It really pisses me off when the witnesses are not treated with repsect and what they are saying is completely ignored.There are often cases were crimes could be prevented if people just LISTENED and donīt look away or pretend not to notice.

No matter if she was foolish falling in love with a prince,especially with a Saudi prince,the deceased mother hasnīt been treated nice and I donīt understand why you,dear Imanmajed donīt see that.Maybe you need to be born as a woman to understand what it means if your child is taken away-it was her only child and the prince had another wive with whom he could have as many children as he wants or take as much as four wives.Of course the child should be able to see the father,but they could have reached an agreement just like other parents from so-called sandwich families do.Sheikh Mohammed from Dubai has a lot of children with unknown number of wives but none of them had to fight for their children or was treated in such an immoral way.
I donīt understand why you,who is so much concerned about the rights of women,doesnīt say anything negative about the conduct of the prince -he KIDNAPPED the daughter!He could have talked to the woman with a lawyer,offered her an agreement that they can both share custody and see their daughter but he did none of this.Kidnapping people- no matter if you kidnap a stranger or somebody from your own family is ILLEGAL!

And yes,violence against women is present in many societies and many different ways but diagnosing a woman you have never met and who doesnīt show any signs of depression with a mental illness is quite harsh and also a form of non-active violence because if you say "He/she does have a mental illness" you say that they are not fully capable of their actions.

I will say it again-the parents could have reached a fair agreement if they both had the will to do so-and nobody wheter the woman was murdered or killed due to the stress-related illness which made her take too many anti-depressants the prince does have full responsibility for her death.
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  #35  
Old 02-23-2013, 04:44 PM
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... Not that a child stolen and hidden in the SA...
When you say, that the prince took away the child from his mother, then you raise the child to a possession. You are aware of it? Has one of the parents a greater right to that child? Maybe is it rather the case that a child has the right to both parents and no parent owns the exclusive rights to a child.
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  #36  
Old 02-23-2013, 05:15 PM
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Sorry,you are defending a criminal-the Prince ignored the ruling of the French court,so you have to accept that some poeple get offended when the law is treated with disrespect.The prince has to follow the laws even if he is rich and belongs to a powerful family with a certain set of traditions and believes.If I was bathing topless in Dubai people would raise hell,but if a man is kidnapping his daughter,ignoring the law,killing a woman you defend him?You should really think deeply about whoīs side you are taking,this is not about Islam vs. Western values or feminism vs patriarchy but basic human rights. No child should be taken from their mother unless she is in a state that she canīt look after them and nobody should be killed or forced into a suicide because he/she comes from a different class,has a different nationality or a different religion or doesnīt fit into oneīs plans.
Like Princess Diana and Prince Charles the couple could have shared custody-it would have been difficult but if there is a will,there is a way.
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Old 02-23-2013, 05:30 PM
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blauerengel, I see both sides and not just one. And I try to understand both attitudes of the parents. This understanding for both sides is not a assessment or a voting for a gender, but only the basis for further consideration.

Even a man hurts when someone takes away his child. It is as painful as the feeling of the mother. It's not just the woman who suffers from such an exclusion. A child belongs to both parents. Neither parent has the sole right to the child alone.

If you argue that he can still have more children with other women , you excludes that he has feelings for this one child. Also, I could return snappy that she also still could have had more children with another man. Right? You fiddling with unfeeling arguments.

Sheikh Mohammed is not the issue here, but he has certainly his relationships much better under control than Prince Sattam. However, there were also a suicide of a woman due to disputes over the children in the al Maktoum family. I fear that even ordinary families could be affected by such hopeless and desperate actions.

You said first: "....but diagnosing a woman you have never met ......is quite harsh and also a form of non-active violence. " Than you claim: "...the prince does have full responsibility for her death."

Is diagnosing a man you have never met not quite harsh and not a form of non-active violence?

If you read my posts, you will notice that I have spoken about his responsibility as well.
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Old 02-23-2013, 05:48 PM
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Maybe as a woman I am a little biased but I do believe that the Prince has done a lot of mistakes in this relationship and of course you are right-she could have married again and have a new child but what I was saying is that he had a family and a wife but she was alone and didnīt have any other boyfriend or husband.
After all he left her because she was not suitable for him so he should at least have shown her some kindness or fairness by allowing her to see her daughter.

And yes,I can say that the prince is responsible for her death-either directly or because he made her suffer so much that she had to take strong medicine which killed her.
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Old 02-23-2013, 05:48 PM
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You can not kidnapped someone for whom you bear the responsibility because it is your own child. You can take the children with you. But that is due to the matter of parenting.

But I agree with you, that it is the best way to make a agreement that they can both share custody and see their daughter. This requires a willingness to negotiate and compromise. Maybe both or one of the two were not willing to do so.
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Old 02-23-2013, 05:50 PM
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Hereīs another video with Candice-Cohen:interview une semaine d'enfer avec Candice Ahnine-Cohen - YouTube
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