Succession to the Romanian Throne, Part 1

[USCtrojan]

We are not speaking about the business skills of HSH Prince Karl but about the clear fact He could be seen as the Heir to the Romanian Throne because of the constitution of 1923.

You are right... His finances have nothing to do with it.

I was simply pointing out that it doesn't matter what either sides finances are, that it won't change how capable one is over the other.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The point is that Prince Karl Friedrich simply is the successor of King Michael according to the Constitution of the Kingdom of Romania. Apparently Margareta and Radu Duda are seen as "dedicated to Romania" but they have a purpose with that. Prince Karl Friedrich is a financially independent man who has to run large businesses and care for his House's patrimonium.

It is in Princess Margareta's own interest to show some "dedication" because their father is dependent on the arrangements the State of Romania made. In 2001 the State of Romania granted former King Michael the same rights as former presidents and gave Elizabeta Palace at his disposal for as long as he lives.

His family also won back Savarsin Castle, which the King had bought in 1943. The family now operates it partly as a bed and breakfast. With other words, it is in the very own personal interests of Princess Margareta and Radu Duda to remain in the picture and keep the sake of the monarchy on the agenda, notwithstanding the fact that Margareta is not a successor at all. Their position as daughter and son-in-law to Romania's last King is in their interest. It prevents them for becoming a 'nobody'.

I think the restoration of the monarchy is as remote for Princess Margariea as it is for Prince Karl Friedrich. The last one however does not depend on Romania for anything so it is pretty logical he remains on the background.

 

[Cory]

The restoration of monarchy is very possible but Prince Karl is not really known in Romania. His son, Prince Alexander, is even less known than his father.

We are in the same situation as in 1889 when there were no male Heirs and the Heir to King Carol I became Prince Ferdinand of Hohenzollern?

The Line of Succession according to the Romanian Constitution of 1923 would be the following :

HH Karl Friedrich, Prince of Hohenzollern (b. 1952)
HSH Alexander, Hereditary Prince of Hohenzollern (b. 1987)
Prince Albrecht of Hohenzollern (b. 1954)
Prince Ferdinand of Hohenzollern (b. 1960)
Prince Aloys of Hohenzollern (b. 1999)
Prince Fidelis of Hohenzollern (b. 2001)
Prince Johann-Georg of Hohenzollern (b. 1932)
Prince Carl Christian of Hohenzollern (b. 1962)
Prince Nicolas of Hohenzollern (b. 1999)
Prince Hubertus of Hohenzollern (b. 1966)
Prince Ferfried of Hohenzollern (b. 1943)
Prince Meinrad of Hohenzollern (b. 1925)
Prince Carl Alexander of Hohenzollern (b. 1970)
Carlos Patrick von Hohenzollern (styled Prince of Hohenzollern) (b. 1978)
.

 

[USCtrojan]

I personally find it hard to believe that Romania will recognize the 1923 constitution when a monarchy is restored, as to do is just insane given that Romania has already written more than one constitution since 1923!

I also find it crazy that Romania (if they had to choose), would prefer a crown princess who is Romanian by birth and is ( we don't know the numbers), well respected, over a prince who has no connections to Romania other than a " succession" according to a constitution that is defunct and 91 years old!

I understand that according the 1923 constitution Margarita has no rights, and neither do her sister and nephew.

Just last year The UK changed their succession laws, so that in the event little George were a girl, she would succeed her father, even if a brother would be eventually born.

Sweden did the same thing for Princess Victoria who took up the place if her brother due to a constitution change allowing the first born, female or not to succeed the current monarch.

I personally don't see how Romania would skip over the daughter of a former reining monarch, for a German prince who has no ties to the country.

His finances absolutely would not be the deciding factor!

This is the 21st century, and women are being seen just as important then the men in the family when it comes to succession rights, both in reigning houses and non-reigning houses.

Just my two cents!

 

[USCtrojan]

There are some Romanians who would prefer HSH Prince Karl of Hohenzollern because they have nothing against a German Prince. Some would consider even Princess Margareta a foreign Princess because she does not speak a perfect Romanian even now. Obviously Princess Margareta, her sister and nephew do not have the huge popularity of HM the King.

Of course not! Why would they? The king was a reining monarch in the country twice. There is some popularity there however for all of them, as well as some respect for the family in general. It's hard to compare the family with the king in terms of popularity.

 

[USCtrojan]

Constitution of Romania
Created21 November 1991
Ratified8 December 1991 *revised 2003*
Author(s)Antonie Iorgovan et al.
PurposeReplaced the 1965 constitution

Constitution of Romania
Created28 June 1965
RatifiedAugust 21 1965
PurposeReplace the 1952 Constitution

Constitution of Romania
Created1952
Ratified24 September 1952
PurposeReplace the 1948 Constitution

Constitution of Romania
Ratified13 April 1948
PurposeReplace the re-established and modified 1923 Constitution

Constitution of Romania
Created1922 - 1923
Ratified29 March 1923
SignatoriesFerdinand I
PurposeReplace the 1866 Constitution

Constitution of Romania
Created13 June [O.S. 1 June] 1866
Ratified13 June [O.S. 1 June] 1866
SignatoriesCarol I
PurposeReplace the Statutul Desvoltător al Convenţiei de la Paris as Constitution of the Principality of Romania

United Principalities (1859–62)
Romanian United Principalities (1862–66)
Romania (1866–81)
Principatele Unite (1859–62)
Principatele Unite Române (1862–66)
România (1866–81)

After doing some research, I can't see parliament re-instating the 1923 constitution! It has in fact been replaced. If and when the monarchy is restored, it would surprise me if they went back to the 1923 constitution just because they are restoring. It would make the Mose sense to replace the 1991 constitution with a more modern version of 1923.

It is blatantly clear that the 1923 constitution is completely null and void! I mean, it's four constitutions out.

If and when the monarchy is restored, they likely could take into consideration the adjustments HM the King made.

 

[Ish]

The Constitution of 1923 has never been legally abolished.The comunist constitutions were abolished in 1989.

The 1923 constitution has been repealed twice; in 1938 by Carol II only to be brought back in 1944 and again in 1947/1948 when Romania became a Republic. Just because the Communist constitution (first adopted in 1948, then revised in 1952 and 1965) was repealed in 1989 doesn't mean that the 1923 constitution was brought back. The current constitution in effect in Romania is the 1991 constitution, which names Romania as a republic. As such the Romanian government cannot legislate changes to the succession to the Romanian throne without changing the constitution and the form of government - both things which it cannot democratically do without referendum.

 

[Cory]

There will be obviously a referendum to bring back the Monarchy. The Constitution of 1923 has never been LEGALLY abolished so all the constitutions after it could be questioned. The Line of succession remain the same as until now without a new decision of the parliament.

There are only two Lines of Succession possible: the Line indicated by the Constitution of 1923 (Prince Karl) and the line proposed by the king in 2007 (Princess Margareta).

I do not know if the Romanian royalists will really support Prince Karl in the case of Restoration. Not all of them agree Prince Karl would be the Heir of King Mihai.

According to the Constitution of 1923 HSH Prince Karl of Hohenzollern would be the Heir to the Romanian throne after HM King Mihai I. More and more Romanians suppose a foreign Prince would be really helpful like in 1866.
Even if he doesn't speak to much about this issue HSH Prince Karl has never given up to this rights.
The possible future Crown Prince of Romania is known for being a serious business man and for respecting the traditions of His House.
Would He be a good King for Romania?

If we have a thread about Prncess Margareta we should have one also one about Prince Karl because each of them represents one of the two possible Lines of Succession.

But the name of this thread could be "Prince Karl of Hohenzollern and the romanian succession"?

HH Prince Karl of Hohenzollern has never officially given up his rights to the Romanian Throne (that comes from the Romanian Constitution of 1923 never democratically and legally abolished) and he can proclaim himself Head of the Royal House of Romania when HM the King won't be among us anymore.

The great popularity of HM the King's grandson Nicolae will probably bring him as future Pretender supported by the royalists. Very few would support HRH Princess Margareta as Pretender and even less would support HH Prince Karl.

 

[Ish]

There will be obviously a referendum to bring back the Monarchy. The Constitution of 1923 has never been LEGALLY abolished so all the constitutions after it could be questioned. The Line of succession remain the same as until now without a new decision of the parliament.

This is kind of ridiculous.

While the Communists may not have legally abolished the constitution, when the communists were overthrown and the PEOPLE chose not to demand that the Romanian family be reinstated the fact became that the 1923 constitution no longer applied in Romania. The constitution that is now important is the 1991 constitution which established Romania as a democratic republic.

The Romanian government as such has no position to alter the succession to the Romanian throne, as it no longer LEGALLY recognizes the Romanian throne.

The Romanian Royal Family can be forced to adhere to the succession as laid out in the 1923 constitution by 2 things - 1. Romanian monarchists who are in a position to support the claimant of their choosing, 2. the claimants themselves, who can make things more or less difficult as they gather support and recognition (or fail to do so) within Romania.

While things may be calmer now, it's only owing to the fact that the King (or former King) is still alive. He continues to have the support of the monarchists because he actually reigned and is still alive. Once he dies, however, monarchists in Romania may not chose to support HM's chosen successor. They may instead chose to support one of the three other successors. Or they may not. Or they may be divided on the issue.

And it's not obvious that there will be a referendum. A referendum HAS to happen for the introduction of a constitutional monarchy that adheres to democratic principles, but that doesn't mean that there will be one. Unless the government choses to have one, or the people demand one, one won't happen. Is there really any real reason to believe that the government is going to do so unless forced to - or that the people in mass want one?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

[....] I also find it crazy that Romania (if they had to choose), would prefer a crown princess who is Romanian by birth and is ( we don't know the numbers), well respected, over a prince who has no connections to Romania other than a " succession" according to a constitution that is defunct and 91 years old!

The present King of Spain was born in Rome (Italy) and spent his childhood in Estoril (Portugal). He was in line of succession for the Spanish Throne according to the Constitution 1876 which was first replaced by a (republican) Constitution 1931 and after the Civil War by the Constitution 1938 (Franco) before finally in 1978 the present Constitution came into force. All this did not prevent a foreign-born and partly foreign-raised gentleman with rights on base of the Constitution of 1876 to become King of Spain...

 

[USCtrojan]

The example above is exactly what I mean. Margarita might be foreign born, but she is a Romanian by birth through her father the king.
The same can be said about Princess Elena, the mother of Nicolae, and the Prince himself.
For this reason, the example in Spain shows that there is hope for the Crown Princess In the event of a restoration.

The reason I say that is not only because of my comment on your post the first time, but Karl of Hohenzollern, might have tues to the line of succession but I still due to the many changes and new constitutions feel that the Romanian parliament could easily go for the daughter of the former king over Karl as he has no direct ties to the king. It just makes sense to me, but every one else seems to feel differently.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

It is all very theoretical. In Sweden they once accepted a French Marshall (Jean-Baptiste Bernadotte) as King, in Belgium they rebelled against the Orange-Nassaus, for centuries in the Low Countries and offered the throne to a Prince von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha. Even the Romanians themselves offered the throne to a foreigner.... Prince Karl from Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen was offered the throne and became King Carol I...

 

[Warren]

Lets have a dose of realism about this.
The days of a country offering its throne to a foreign military commander or to a foreign princeling are long gone.

 

[Marengo]

I have merged the post about a succession of Prince Karl of Hohenzollern into the thread dealing with Romanian succession issues. Other issues regarding the prince can also be discussed in the Hohenzollern subforum.

 

[MAfan]

If you want to discuss about the various possible lines of succession to the Romanian throne, this thread is more than suitable for such discussion.

As you may know, the thread abut Crown Princess Margarita (and Prince Radu) covers their current events. A similar thread about Prince Karl Friedrich of Hohenzollern is already existing in the Hohenzollern subforum, where you can discuss the current events of the Prince and in general of the House of Hohenzollern.

As long as Prince Karl Friedrich doesn't show any interest in Romania and in the possibility of becoming in the future King of Romania (if and when the monarchy will be restored) a thread on him in the Romanian subforum is not necessary.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Has Irina been stripped of her Royal Style of HRH & Princess of Romania and place in the line of succession ?

 

[Ceallach]

Not just Irina, but all her descendants are out of succession - children, grandchildren.

Familia Regala - Linia de succesiune

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The great popularity of HM the King's grandson Nicolae will probably bring him as future Pretender supported by the royalists. Very few would support HRH Princess Margareta as Pretender and even less would support HH Prince Karl.

The monarchy is not the The Voice Romania, a TV-popularity poll. For me it is beyond understanding why Mr Nicholas Medforth-Mills would be more popular than Princess Margarita of Romania born a Princess of the House Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen. As no any other member of the Romanian Royal House, it is thanks to Princess Margarita and -honour to him who deserves it- Mr Radu Duda, that the Romanian royals have not sank away into obscurity as so many other Royal Houses.

There is no objective reason why the Swiss-born British citizen Mr Nicholas Medforth-Mills would be more popular than is aunt Princess Margarita, other than for his -still- youthful appearance and friendly And by the way... Mr Nicholas Medforth-Mills' own mother still stands above him in the disputed line of successioncharacter. That turns the monarchy into a popularity poll and that is not what that institution is for.

It is the same as "Who is the most popular member of the Swedish royal family?" Answer: "Estelle!". So a baby, a toddler, who can not even speak is more popular than his hardworking mother or the royal couple? Come on...

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Not just Irina, but all her descendants are out of succession - children, grandchildren.

Familia Regala - Linia de succesiune

Why was Princess Irina removed from the virtual line of succession?

 

[An Ard Ri]

Not just Irina, but all her descendants are out of succession - children, grandchildren.

Familia Regala - Linia de succesiune

And she's now just Irina Walker as per the Royal Family Website.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

According the own rules of succession, Princess Irina is in line of succession. I wonder where is the base for her removal out of this line?

 

[Jacknch]

For those of us not fluent in the Romanian language, here is the Linia de Succesuine in English: -

Members of the Royal House of Romania titles and order of succession rules are determined by the Organic Royal House of Romania.

Thus, according to them, the current Head of the Royal House of Romania is His Majesty Michael I , King of Romania (jure sanguinis ) . The current Chief Consort of the Royal House of Romania is Her Majesty Anne, Queen of Romania (ad personam ) and Princess of Bourbon -Parma (jure sanguinis ) .

The current heir to the Heads of the Royal House of Romania is HRH Princess Margarita , Princess of Romania (jure sanguinis ) , which will be from now on and will remain after the death of His Majesty King Custodian of the Romanian Crown (ad personam ) . The current consort of the heir to the Royal House of Romania dungeon is HRH Prince Radu of Romania (ad personam ) .

Members of the Royal House of Romania are: HRH Elena , Princess of Romania (jure sanguinis ) ; HRH Sofia, Princess of Romania (jure sanguinis ) ; HRH Mary, Princess of Romania (jure sanguinis ) ; Nicholas de Roumanie Medforth -Mills , who received the title, appellation and rank of Prince of Romania and Royal Highness (jure sanguinis ) on 1 April 2010, his 25th birthday.

Wives and children of Their Royal Highnesses Princesses do not have personal titles .

The order of succession to the throne and the Heads of the Royal House of Romania is based on the principle primogeniturii male preference , thereby repealing rules Organic salic principle of primogeniturii absolute masculine , excluding women and their descendants . Basically , currently , it is:

1. HRH Crown Princess Margarita of Romania , Custodian of the Romanian Crown ;
2. HRH Princess Elena of Romania;
3. HRH Prince Nicholas of Romania ;
4. Elisabeta Karina de Roumanie ;
5. HRH Princess Sofia of Romania;
6. Elizabeth Maria Biarneix ;
7. Princess Maria of Romania.

Changes can bring it by the decision of the Head of the Royal House of Romania.

As the translation was via google translate, names, word and sentences may not be quite correct, but I imagine one can get the gist of it.

 

[Marengo]

According the own rules of succession, Princess Irina is in line of succession. I wonder where is the base for her removal out of this line?

I suppose the rooster fights must have something to do with it.

Re: popularity contest: the monarchy shouldn't be one indeed, but IF there will ever be a referendum on reinstating the monarchy, I suppose they will pick the candidate who is most likely to win. The Brazilian referendum in the 90-ties went desastrous as the unpopular, uncharismatic, ultra conservative and reactionary prince Luiz was the main candidate while the Petropolis branch seemed a bit more normal.

Forfeiting rights has been done before, the most recent example is the late count of Barcelona.

 

[Cris M]

Re: popularity contest: the monarchy shouldn't be one indeed, but IF there will ever be a referendum on reinstating the monarchy, I suppose they will pick the candidate who is most likely to win. The Brazilian referendum in the 90-ties went desastrous as the unpopular, uncharismatic, ultra conservative and reactionary prince Luiz was the main candidate while the Petropolis branch seemed a bit more normal.

That's not accurate. The referendum went desastrous because people thought there was no clear "canditate" to the Throne, because the Government forbade Princes Luiz (Head of the Imperial House of Brazil), Bertrand (Prince Imperial of Brazil) and Antonio of appearing on television to promote their cause.

In fact, most cities were the Monarchy won more votes were the ones visited by the "ultra conservative" Princes, who also won every single debate.

I know that because I worked tireless during the campaing.

The so-called "Petrópolis Branch" is made of republicans and a Prince who went to jail for robbery.

 

[An Ard Ri]

From Royal Musings

Royal Musings: Modification to the succession of the Romanian throne

 

[Marengo]

Thank you for the clarification. I have been in touch with a person who worked for the Vassouras campaign too, that is why I wrote what I wrote. Although indeed the fights between the two branches was a major issue, he also said that he was sad that prince Luiz was the legitemate claimant (according to him), for the reasons I listed above. Of course the prince is a very morally upright and respectable gentleman. Still, I do not think it is wise for former reigning royal families to be associated too closely with ultra conservativism and reactionary groups if they want to be restaured. The whole point of a monarchy is that they are above parties. And ultra conservatives do not appeal to a large group in most countries.

---

In any case, the point was that if there will ever be a referendum, in let's say 10 years or so, it may be possible that Prince Nicholas will be a more appealing figure than his aunt, who must have reached retirement age by then. In that scenario it maybe wise that she forfeits her rights for her nephew. Anyway, these are all unlikely hypotheses.

 

[MarleneKoenig]

According the own rules of succession, Princess Irina is in line of succession. I wonder where is the base for her removal out of this line?

Due to her conviction and sentencing (probation for 3 years and fines) for gambling connected to cockfighting, Irina was stripped of her title and she and her descendants are no longer in the line of succession. She is now Irina Walker.

 

[Andy T]

It seems to me, judging by media coverage, that HRH Princess Margareta is the clear choice, and deservedly so.

As for the Royal House's removal of Irina Walker from the line of succession, it is a sound decision, in my opinion. Realistically, she is far enough down the line not to matter and as a convicted criminal, she is hardly an asset to the cause.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Due to her conviction and sentencing (probation for 3 years and fines) for gambling connected to cockfighting, Irina was stripped of her title and she and her descendants are no longer in the line of succession. She is now Irina Walker.

Thank you. I am not sure what to think about this. Apparently the head of the House, King Michael, had a reason to remove his daughter from the line of succession. But according the (revised) rules for the succession in the House of Romania, also Irina's children were in line of succession and are now removed as well. That sounds like paying for someone else's sins...



Anyway, it is all very theoretical and Princess Margareta and especially her husband Radu Duda deserve honour for their zest and commitment to keep the interest in the royal family alive. They have prevented the royal family sinking away in obscurity.

 

[MarleneKoenig]

Michael is recognized as a former head of state. He is allowed to use and live at the Elisabeta Palace which is the official home for former heads of state. Margarita and Radu are largely based there. A great many functions, private and public, are hosted at the Elisabeta Palace, and the guests included government officials. Receptions hosted by the Crown Princess for visiting dignitaries are also held at the palace. In other words, the RF plays a social role in the country, and their comings and goings are covered by the newspapers and TV on a regular basis. I have known the family for many years and was their guest in 2011 for Michael's 90th birthday. I am the one who broke the news of Irina's arrest to the family. Am absolutely not surprised that Irina's children were also removed because neither have any interest in their maternal family, nor are close to their grandparents ... it really is a moot point. Margarita is recognized as the heir, as the future head of the family, by government and church officials, as well as other royal houses. Prince Karl Friedrich has no interest whatsoever. He has his own family estates and castle to maintain. He does not speak Roumanian, and is a devout Roman Catholic.