Succession to the Romanian Throne, Part 1

[crm2317]

I keep reading how Nicholas' is more popular with the Romanian people than ever. What if this whole thing is some sort of publicity stunt to make the people feel they need Nicholas as a Prince after all and increase support for the monarchy to be returned.

 

[Cory]

The Succession is really a problem now.

 

[eya]

Do they know if the Hohenzollerns show any interested about the monarchy in romania ever?

And this is the only solution?

But if they are not intrested then what?

I don't think so anything happen soon about the succession. Very interested what King Mihai think and doing next.

It is just my personal opinion. It would be unwise to present arguments against the all female succession line. I am not fond of endless arguments and explanations that will result in nothing.

I am not sure how successful future Queens of Norway, Belgium, and Spain will be. PR campaigns aside, it is impossible for me to measure Queen Elizabeth's and Queen Margrethe's success.

I do not believe that it makes no difference whether the monarch is male or female . Nowadays, their role is largely decorative figure . Just the required education and a good team of advisors .

 

[Lee-Z]

Do they know if the Hohenzollerns show any interested about the monarchy in romania ever?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Friedrich,_Prince_of_Hohenzollern
According to wiki in 2009 the head of the family said he *wasn't* interested in the Romanian throne...

But let's not forget that it's not that K.Mihai ended the line of succession completely, his oldest daughter is next in line, so a lot of things could happen in the next, what, 30 something years...

 

[Cory]

The Line of Succession proposed in 2007 by King Michael of Romania is not only against the Romanian Constitution of 1923 (that the King swore to respect) but changes all the time. Princess Sofia had been stripped of her titles and than appeared on the Line with her titles again. Princess Irina lost her place without a public statement. Michael Kreuger and Angelica Kreuger lost their places in the Line with no explanation and no statement. The last chapter of this saga was about young Nicholas de Roumanie Medforth Mills stripped of his place in the Succession in absence but this time the reaction of many royalists and of the public opinion was quite strong against the decision. Nobody knows how this Line will be in the future but this Family risks to loose credibility and public support. A very sad end for a great Family.

 

[Cory]

The Hohenzollerns will hardly say anything about Succession during King Michael's life.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The Hohenzollerns will hardly say anything about Succession during King Michael's life.

They are wise enough and busy with their lots of business activities. The Fürst manages the Hofkammer which mainly consists of the Unternehmungsgruppe Fürst von Hohenzollern. With the revenues he and his family make a living and keep the impressive Schloss Sigmaringen and its enormous domains in proper order.

The Fürst also owns:
Zollern GmbH (since 1708) - a firm in machines, steel, ironworks with 2.800 personnel
EZS (Elektrozentrale Sigmaringen, more than 100 years) - the own electrity company for the castle, the domains and the city of Sigmaringen with 30 personnel
Baumarkt Sigmaringen (since 1989) - DIY, wholesale and retail, hardware
Baumarkt Bad Saulgau (since 1989) - DIY, wholesale and retail, hardware
PvH Capital (since 2005) - the Fürst has bought a series of start-ups in bio-technologies, energy and sustainable renewal
Burg Hohenzollern (since 1061) - the Castle, the domains, the historic and art collections, the archives, the valuables
CoSi Elektronik - IT-systems for medical doctors, digital röntgen for dentists, security and surveillance IT
Prinz von Hohenzollern - the vineyards with wines, sekt and liquors produced from the own grapes
Forstbetrieb Hohenzollern - 20.000 hectare of the domains dedicated to forestry
Jagdbetrieb Hohenzollern - the hunting department of the Fürstliche Household
Wildpark Josefslust - the own wild park
Baumschule des Forstbetrieb Hohenzollern - teaching and educating (new) foresters but also producing 200.000 to 300.000 new trees every year for the own Forstbetrieb
Etc.

Some fellow posters have snubbed "those Germans" in the original line of succession and went for Nicholas in the invented line of succession. Why, that is unclear. His good looks? His friendly nature? The actual Heir according the original line of succession and his son however are busy with their activities and prove -in my view- far more that they can be a force with fresh ideas to renew and renergize Romania with good and creative ideas, than the directionless Romanian bunch.

 

[Cory]

Many Romanian royalists speak about Prince Karl and his son these days and I believe the Hohenzollerns represents the only solution now.

 

[MarleneKoenig]

Paul might take advantage of the situation and make a claim. But I do not think he has much support.

Romanian court rules Prince Paul member of Royal House of Romania

Paul has serious financial and legal issues. He has several judgments against him (worth about 6 million Euros) as well as other legal issues at this time. Bankruptcy could be in his future

 

[Cory]

Let's hope the Romanian royalists will ask officially Prince Karl to prepare himself for the Succession. He could change his mind about the Romanian Succession if he sees he has clear support from the people.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

And this is the only solution?

According the very document on which the whole existence of Michael as King is based, the Hohenzollerns are his successors by lack of direct male descent in his own House.

 

[JR76]

Let's hope the Romanian royalists will ask officially Prince Karl to prepare himself for the Succession. He could change his mind about the Romanian Succession if he sees he has clear support from the people.

I feel a bit sorry for you Cory. I've noticed how you after an initial period of doubt started warming up to Nicolae and in the end you seemed to have a lot of hope for the future and even being fond of the prince.


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community mobile app

 

[An Ard Ri]

Where does Nicholas's sister,Elisabeta-Karina de Roumanie Medforth-Mills reside?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

But if they are not intrested then what?

Then the House of Romania ends somewhere and will fade away in history. The House of Hohenzollern will continue to manage their interests and upheld their status like they already do. I think the Germans will shrug their shoulders and are the sort of folks who can analyse a situation properly.

So to see the Hohenzollerns seem to respect the House Laws better. The successors all come from dynastic marriages:

Wilhelm Prinz von Hohenzollern
x Maria Theresia Princesse de Bourbon-Deux Siciles
= Friedrich

Friedrich Prinz von Hohenzollern
x Margarete Prinzessin von Sachsen
= Friedrich Wilhelm

Friedrich Wilhelm Prinz von Hohenzollern
x Margarita Prinzessin zu Leiningen
= Karl Friedrich

Karl Friedrich Prinz von Hohenzollern (the current Chef)
x Alexandra Schenk Gräfin von Stauffenberg
= Alexander

Alexander Prinz von Hohenzollern (the future Chef)

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Where does Nicholas's sister,Elisabeta-Karina de Roumanie Medforth-Mills reside?

In my understanding she lives in the United Kingdom.

 

[wartenberg7]

Duc_et_Pair

Heir Apparent
So to see the Hohenzollerns seem to respect the House Laws better. The successors all come from dynastic marriages:

Wilhelm Prinz von Hohenzollern
x Maria Theresia Princesse de Bourbon-Deux Siciles
= Friedrich

Friedrich Prinz von Hohenzollern
x Margarete Prinzessin von Sachsen
= Friedrich Wilhelm

Friedrich Wilhelm Prinz von Hohenzollern
x Margarita Prinzessin zu Leiningen
= Karl Friedrich

Karl Friedrich Prinz von Hohenzollern (the current Chef)
x Alexandra Schenk Gräfin von Stauffenberg
= Alexander

Alexander Prinz von Hohenzollern (the future Chef)[/QUOTE]





Oh yes, we all know: This turns your world into a perfect one...
"Dynastic marriages"!!!

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I wonder about the status of Princess Sofia (the fourth daughter of King Michael). In an old article on Rootsweb the author Dan Willis wrote about Princess Sofia's spouse Alan Biarneix (styling himself as Biarneix de Laufenbourg):

Alain Biarneix appeared on the scene several years ago claiming to be Michel de Habsbourg and claimed to be a member of a junior line of the Austian Imperial family. Archduke Otto's attorney's contacted him and advised him to stop spreading the lie as it was apparent that he was not a family member.

He then started saying he was an illegitimate Habsburg. This still did not hold up and he never specifically stated which Habsburg was his father.

He was finally sued on grounds of false impersonation and was forced to give up the Habsbourg name as he was clearly no relation to them. It was then that he chose the name "de Laufenborg" which still has Habsburg connections from the 14th/15th centuries.

He sucessfully wooed and married Princess Sofia of Roumania against her family's approval. In fact her father took the extra-ordinary step of stripping her of her title for marrying the faker.

If Biarneix's current wife is also a fraud, they deserve each other. But I know nothing about her one way or the other.

Dan Willis
author, House of Habsburg



Apparently Sofia is back in line of succession again, back a Princess of Romania again? All this while she is still married to the man which was seemed unsuitable? Really... what a mess King Michael has made of his House. The chances were there for a semi-formal status of the former royal family but all this has been flushed through the loo. No, as Chef de la Maison, King Michael's record has been poor, very poor.

 

[Lee-Z]

Apparently Sofia is back in line of succession again, back a Princess of Romania again? All this while she is still married to the man which was seemed unsuitable? Really... what a mess King Michael has made of his House. The chances were there for a semi-formal status of the former royal family but all this has been flushed through the loo. No, as Chef de la Maison, King Michael's record has been poor, very poor.

I thought they were divorced in 2002? I think I read somewhere on these forums that she got reinstated after that?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

[...]

Oh yes, we all know: This turns your world into a perfect one...
"Dynastic marriages"!!!

Well, in comparison those "oldfashioned" Hohenzollerns respecting their patrimonium, respecting their House Laws, maintaining their family assets, seem to do very, very well and live a very good life on their 1000 years old Burg.

The Romanians went the 'modern way' and married a dubious character (Radu), a fraud (Sofia), a criminal (Irina) and a Polish dude in informatica who became in financial problems and resulted in a long embattled divorce (Maria). Also very modern in Orthodox Romania: of the five daughters of the King, completely free to marry without restriction and chose the partner they want: four marriages ended in divorce.

 

[Lee-Z]

The Romanians went the 'modern way' and married a dubious character (Radu), a fraud (Sofia), a criminal (Irina) and a Polish immigrant (Maria). Also very modern in Orthodox Romania: of the five daughters of the King, completely free to marry without restriction and chose the partner they want: four marriages ended in divorce.

Yep, they scored higher than P.Beatrix of the Netherlands and her sisters, of those 4 only 2 divorced (while we're comparing royal families ), one of those divorces was with a full blood Prince, so equal marriage doesn't prevent it...

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I thought they were divorced in 2002? I think I read somewhere on these forums that she got reinstated after that?

Yes, now I see in some source that Alain divorced indeed. Their child seem creatively called Elisabeth-Maria Biarneix de Laufenborg according the one and Elisabeth-Maria de Laufenborg Biarneix according the other.

The royal website however keeps it simple:

1. ASR Principesa Mostenitoare Margareta a Romaniei, Custode al Coroanei Romaniei;

2. ASR Principesa Elena a Romaniei;

3. Elisabeta Karina de Roumanie;

4. ASR Principesa Sofia a Romaniei;

5. Elisabeta Maria Biarneix;

6. ASR Principesa Maria a Romaniei.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Yep, they scored higher than P.Beatrix of the Netherlands and her sisters, of those 4 only 2 divorced (while we're comparing royal families ), one of those divorces was with a full blood Prince, so equal marriage doesn't prevent it...

In my humble personal opinion it is kind strange that you are interested in royalty and aristocracy, and I may assume because of that, also in traditions, history and genealogy.

When a royal family simply wishes to live according the traditions of their House then they are suddenly ridiculed? When Crown Princess Victoria had married a Lensgreve Wedell-Wedellsborg or something, was she then also become a laughing stock for you, simply for living to certain standards?

 

[Lee-Z]

Yes, now I see in some source that Alain divorced indeed. Their child seem creatively called Elisabeth-Maria Biarneix de Laufenborg according the one and Elisabeth-Maria de Laufenborg Biarneix according the other.

The royal website however keeps it simple:

1. ASR Principesa Mostenitoare Margareta a Romaniei, Custode al Coroanei Romaniei;

2. ASR Principesa Elena a Romaniei;

3. Elisabeta Karina de Roumanie;

4. ASR Principesa Sofia a Romaniei;

5. Elisabeta Maria Biarneix;

6. ASR Principesa Maria a Romaniei.

Ok, I hope for the romanian monarchists that this will remain the line of succession for a while so they can regain their confidence in the family, would be a shame if it is all lost with this action...

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

On the European Royals Message Board a certain poster named raalcom, whom seems quite well-informed, more or less pointed to Queen Anne of Romania as the one whom initiated the change in the succession. I quote from his post:

The new succession line is, I'm afraid, a sad joke, the shadow of a shadow that lost all traces of credibility. How many times can succession pass on female line ? Margarita "Custodian of the Crown" (always a strange and never convincing formula), Elena ("2nd Custodian" ?) and Karina ("3rd Custodian" ?) ?

In 1997, Romanian monarchists asked King Michael to designate an Heir from the German Catholic line of the Hohenzollerns. He initially agreed, but then, under pressure from Queen Anna, he changed his mind, accepting the idea of Nicolae as successor and heir. Romanian monarchists (some of them knowing the Family in close quarters) split, back then, in two parties: those who were against this unconstitutional decision, and those who accepted it together with the idea that the "monarchy" should adopt modern norms. We know what happened.

Normally, the legal and legitimate Heir is one of the German Catholic Hohenzollerns, namely Fuerst Karl-Friedrich. However, he publicly stated in 2009 he is not interested in claiming such a right (and he repeats it in private even now). We are therefore left with his son, Alexander (b. 1987), more attracted to politics than his father is [...]

 

[Rudolph]

The succession is for the head of the family correct? If there is a restoration Romania will choose its own formal line of succession to the throne.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The succession is for the head of the family correct? If there is a restoration Romania will choose its own formal line of succession to the throne.

Eh... the purists say: no, not the head of the family but the Constitution and the Fundamental Laws of the House.

It is difficult to see the whole circus going upside down again and the Hohenzollerns coming back into picture. That would really make the whole succession into a vaudeville. Or maybe it already is...

 

[Mirabel]

The succession is for the head of the family correct? If there is a restoration Romania will choose its own formal line of succession to the throne.

I can't imagine there will ever be a restoration.
It seems unlikely in these times.

 

[crm2317]

King Michael's nephew Paul Philip must be rubbing his hands together!

 

[Al_bina]

On the European Royals Message Board a certain poster named raalcom, whom seems quite well-informed, more or less pointed to Queen Anne of Romania as the one whom initiated the change in the succession. I quote from his post:

The new succession line is, I'm afraid, a sad joke, the shadow of a shadow that lost all traces of credibility. How many times can succession pass on female line ? Margarita "Custodian of the Crown" (always a strange and never convincing formula), Elena ("2nd Custodian" ?) and Karina ("3rd Custodian" ?) ?

In 1997, Romanian monarchists asked King Michael to designate an Heir from the German Catholic line of the Hohenzollerns. He initially agreed, but then, under pressure from Queen Anna, he changed his mind, accepting the idea of Nicolae as successor and heir. Romanian monarchists (some of them knowing the Family in close quarters) split, back then, in two parties: those who were against this unconstitutional decision, and those who accepted it together with the idea that the "monarchy" should adopt modern norms. We know what happened.

Normally, the legal and legitimate Heir is one of the German Catholic Hohenzollerns, namely Fuerst Karl-Friedrich. However, he publicly stated in 2009 he is not interested in claiming such a right (and he repeats it in private even now). We are therefore left with his son, Alexander (b. 1987), more attracted to politics than his father is [...]

All female succession line is ridiculous. Given the situation, the custodians of the Crown should just take advantage of perquisites they have got from the Romanian government.

 

[Ceallach]

And this is the only solution?

No if Romania was to return the monarchy they could pass laws and pick whoever they want. They could pick an actual Romanian prince like a Caradja, Ghika, Cantacuzino, Sturdza or Bibescu, etc. Or they could pick Nicholas. They can pick whoever they want.

But it is unlikely without a movement and legitimacy behind it.