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  #421  
Old 02-29-2016, 03:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Cory View Post
Any decisions of a former Monarch refarding Succession can be accepted only if made according to the Constitutions of the Kingdom.
That is in itself an opinion that can be accepted or rejected, and the former monarch's decisions will be accepted by anyone who thinks they are reasonable, and rejected by those who think otherwise. That's why this argument is doomed to forever chase its own tail.
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  #422  
Old 02-29-2016, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Cory View Post
Any " House Laws" have no constitutional consequences at all anyway. The King recognized only the Parlianent can decide on the matter of the Succession.
Did I not make those exact two points?

My use of the term House Laws is strictly in the context that as the head of a former reigning House, King Michael is at liberty to define the composition of and precedence within his own family as he sees fit.
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  #423  
Old 02-29-2016, 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Chubb Fuddler View Post
That's why this argument is doomed to forever chase its own tail.
Precisely.
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  #424  
Old 02-29-2016, 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Von Schlesian View Post
Did I not make those exact two points?

My use of the term House Laws is strictly in the context that as the head of a former reigning House, King Michael is at liberty to define the composition of and precedence within his own family as he sees fit.
Any family can decide what is best for its future but in this case we speak about dynastic rights and the King can't decide alone and without Parliament on such issue .
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  #425  
Old 02-29-2016, 08:46 AM
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Any family can decide what is best for its future but in this case we speak about dynastic rights and the King can't decide alone and without Parliament on such issue .
And the fact still remains that when a country is a republic, there is no parliament that can or will have an opinion on changing/altering a dead constitution or defunct line of succession. The only thing left then, is for a King or head of a Royal Family to use current principles within the country and the EU (when a memberstate thereof), including current practice in other monarchies, to write an updated document that he encourages parliament to consider, IF they look towards a restoration at some point.

There is no other way open to the King. If he made no statement on the issue at all, chose to remain silent until his passing and let the Royal Family, the properties etc wither away, he would be criticized for ignoring the royal heritage, being reckless with the future of the monarchy and so on. There is no way for the King to resolve this issue legitimately in everyones eyes, and so what remains is what he did, write a document of succession that encourages a change in line with every other European and Western monarchy, in line with the human rights act and principles enshrined in EU law.

When the Hohenzollern heir made it clear they do not wish to press a claim to the defunct Romanian throne, that ends that avenue of thinking effectively, and when the Royal Family headed by the former King, makes clear they are in Romania to serve, there is no logic in pursuing a different way of reasoning.

Whether one likes this person or that person, should be less relevant than raising from the ashes an institution that would serve the Romanian people far better than their corrupt, nepotist republic, and if one wishes a future line of succession to have any relevance at all, that has to be the start and the end of the line.
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  #426  
Old 02-29-2016, 09:07 AM
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And the fact still remains that when a country is a republic, there is no parliament that can or will have an opinion on changing/altering a dead constitution or defunct line of succession. The only thing left then, is for a King or head of a Royal Family to use current principles within the country and the EU (when a memberstate thereof), including current practice in other monarchies, to write an updated document that he encourages parliament to consider, IF they look towards a restoration at some point.

There is no other way open to the King. If he made no statement on the issue at all, chose to remain silent until his passing and let the Royal Family, the properties etc wither away, he would be criticized for ignoring the royal heritage, being reckless with the future of the monarchy and so on. There is no way for the King to resolve this issue legitimately in everyones eyes, and so what remains is what he did, write a document of succession that encourages a change in line with every other European and Western monarchy, in line with the human rights act and principles enshrined in EU law.

When the Hohenzollern heir made it clear they do not wish to press a claim to the defunct Romanian throne, that ends that avenue of thinking effectively, and when the Royal Family headed by the former King, makes clear they are in Romania to serve, there is no logic in pursuing a different way of reasoning.

Whether one likes this person or that person, should be less relevant than raising from the ashes an institution that would serve the Romanian people far better than their corrupt, nepotist republic, and if one wishes a future line of succession to have any relevance at all, that has to be the start and the end of the line.
The document of the King signed in 2007 could be consider a wish of the former Monarch. He could have asked the Hohenzollern Princes to accept the Succession but he did not even if he had previosly asked the Hohenzollern to give a title to his son in law.
The former Monarch expeessed his wish but the Hohenzollerns did not formally give up their dynastic rights but only HH Prince Karl said in an interview about his personal interest in the matter.
Only two daughters of the former Monarch live in Romania and both do not have descendants. Their sisters do not speak the language and have their lives abroad. So ...
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  #427  
Old 02-29-2016, 09:09 AM
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I am not sure. Maybe they have been guest at weddings, jubilees, birthdays, funerals. Who knows? The Hohenzollerns and the Romanians keep a low key role in publicity.
The only Romanian does not really play a low key role on the contrary.
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  #428  
Old 02-29-2016, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Cory View Post
The document of the King signed in 2007 could be consider a wish of the former Monarch. He could have asked the Hohenzollern Princes to accept the Succession but he did not even if he had previosly asked the Hohenzollern to give a title to his son in law.
The former Monarch expeessed his wish but the Hohenzollerns did not formally give up their dynastic rights but only HH Prince Karl said in an interview about his personal interest in the matter.
Only two daughters of the former Monarch live in Romania and both do not have descendants. Their sisters do not speak the language and have their lives abroad. So ...
The other arguments aside, it might be time to put a pin in the question of language and move on. There is not one German Hohenzollern who speak Romanian either, so the fact that some in the Romanian Royal Family do and some don't, is not an argument against them and for the Hohenzollerns.

When it comes to the King asking permission of the Hohenzollern family, there are 2 things to say about that: You and I do not know what communication was made between the King and the Hohenzollern house prior to the document of succession under the seal of the King. Secondly, when Prince Karl made clear he had no interest in the Romanian throne, any other descendant of his family could had come out and made it clear that the Prince was speaking for himself and not his whole family. They did not.

In the soon 10 years that have passed since Prince Karl rejected the Hohenzollern claim to the Romanian throne, there has been no visit to Romania by any family member. There has been no public call for their coming to Romania. There have been no statements from any Hohenzollern member with regards to the Romanian throne and succession. There is no known group supporting the old line of succession and constitution, as you yourself have said.

Having your own life and living abroad happens in every Royal Family. Norwegian Princess Ragnhild lived in Rio de Janeiro her whole adult life. Swedish Princess Birgitta has lived in Spain most of her life.

The Romanian Royal Family was sent in exile almost 70 years ago. The Princesses were born abroad, raised abroad, worked abroad and lived abroad. They're also the only ones who have returned to Romania, where some have adopted the language, taken up local and regional issues and begun representing the Crown.

That's history in practice. That's how you represent a Royal Family, and it's how you reconstruct a monarchy in a modern world.
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  #429  
Old 02-29-2016, 12:39 PM
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HH Prince Karl DID NOT rejected the Romanian dynastic rights but said he was not interested at that time when anyhow it was not an urgent matter. A formal renounciation has never been made. No other Prince of Hohenzollern could speak about a subject that regarded the future of the Romanian Throne They could do it only when their time to succeed comes.
Regarding the language: it is weird that somebody who pretends to belong to a Romanian family does not speak Romanian. The descendants of the King are as Romanians as the Hohenzollerns only that the Hohenhollerns have dynastic rights and the descendants of the King do not have such rights.
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  #430  
Old 02-29-2016, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Cory View Post
A constitutional reigning Monarch can never change without the Parliament the Laws of Succession. And we are speaking here even about a former Monarch so...
Again, it is an opinion that a former constitutional monarch is bound by the conventions of the constitution under which he reigned. You can also argue that the former monarch is free to do whatever he likes. I'm not saying one or the other is right or wrong, just that there is no way to prove definitively that one is right and the other is wrong. It is an issue that always will be, by its very nature, open to different interpretations, opinions and, as we clearly see here, an awful lot of bickering.
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  #431  
Old 03-01-2016, 07:05 AM
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If a former Monarch wants his decisions to be repected by everybody and to have a future then he remains faithful to the Constitution of the Kingdom he has swirn to respect. Otherwuse he does what he likes but his decisions won't be respected and won't have any relevance.
Interesting that all the controversial decisions of the gormer Monarch were taken after and not before 1996.
Once again, this is an unfounded statement contrary to every inch of evidence so far. Not one monarchist group in Romania supports this view. Every publication and media outlet has respected the Kings changes to titles, and through that, to an updated line of succession that clearly respects that the world has moved on since the 1920s. Where is the factual or empirical evidence to support your claim that the King has thwarted claims by the house of Hohenzollern at all? They clearly, visibly and anecdotally do not want to claim the Romanian throne. If they did, there would be evidence to the contrary.

The Romanovs visibly disagree about succession. The Savoys and the Aostas visibly disagree. The 3 French monarchical branches disagree.

The Romanian RF and the Hohenzollerns don't, and I'm starting to genuinely believe that the only goal here, is to sow discontent where none exist.

There is one cause of worry to the future of the Romanian monarchy, and therein a line of succession with any relevance, and that is the rift between the King and Nicholas M-M. If and when that us mended, the path ahead is clear.

In the meantime, send a letter to the head of the Hohenzollerns and ask for his views. You might be surprised at the answer.
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  #432  
Old 03-01-2016, 07:18 AM
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Once again you do not know the Romanian realities and you rely only on the information favourable to the proposed " new Line". There are many royalists that do not agree with the " changes of 2007" even if they are not organized OFFICIALLY in an Association.
The Hohenzollern would be able to speak about their dynastic rights only after King Mihai not during his life.
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  #433  
Old 03-01-2016, 07:22 AM
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The Hohenzollern would be able to speak about their dynastic rights only after King Mihai not during his life.
What do you base this claim on?
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  #434  
Old 03-01-2016, 07:26 AM
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Logics and common sense. They can speak about King Mihai's Succession only after King Mihai.

Have you ever heard about formal renounciation to dynastic rights?That's not about an interview but a giuridical act.

With the passing away of HH Prince Johann Georg the constitutional Line of Succession to the Romanian Throne has only 14 Princes.

Wonderful article on www.monarchia.it regarding the Romanian Succesion.

A very balanced article on the matter.
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  #435  
Old 03-01-2016, 07:36 AM
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Logics and common sense. They can speak about King Mihai's Succession only after King Mihai.
Then I will say that logic and common sense dictates that these decisions are made based on long-term perspectives, and that the Hohenzollerns are not interested in sidelining the actual Romanian Royal Family to press an illogical and old claim that died with the old constitution. Logic and common sense means that the Hohenzollerns know and agree, by their complete abscence from Romania and the campaign for the monarchy, that the old line will never be revived, and that a restarted monarchy naturally will be based on the RF.

Logic and common sense means that questions of succession are resolved early on, not after the fact, and a responsible Princely house will never press a claim after the death of the Romanian King, when he has heirs willing and able to continue the work.

Logic and common sense would be to recognize that the statement of Prince Karl, while the King is alive btw, so your argument falls flat, that they are not interested in the Romanian throne, is the end of the issue.
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  #436  
Old 03-05-2016, 04:13 AM
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Wonderful article on Unione Monarchica Italiana - U.M.I. regarding the Romanian Succesion.
You mean this specific page, titled "the complicated succession". I will give a short summarization for our non latin-language-readers.
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  #437  
Old 03-05-2016, 06:07 AM
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My summarization in English from ROMANIA: LA COMPLESSA SUCCESSIONE DEL RE MICHELE I

Romania, the compilicated succession of King Michael
In recent days many monarchists around the world are turning a thought or saying a prayer for King Michael of Romania, who -despite the weight of his 94 years and a worsening health - continues to be a symbol of the rebirth of his people. The King is one of the few still living heads-of-state from World War II (together with King Simeon II of Bulgaria). The hospitalization in a clinic in Lausanne and the medical bulletins -stable but definitely disturbing- have led many to question what might happen from a dynastic point of view. The answer to this question is far from simple, everyone has his/her own vision with strong arguments. Allow us to analyze the situation without siding with the one or the other party.

The Hohenzollern dynastic laws and the throne of Romania
The present Romanian royal dynasty began in 1866 when the young Prince Karl von Hohenzollern became the first reigning Sovereign of Romania of his House. The Constitution of 1866 established very clear rules on the succession to the throne and the members of the Royal Family.

Article 82 stated: "the constitutional powers of the Reigning Prince are hereditary, in direct and legitimate line of His Highness Prince Karl I von Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen, by right of primogeniture and with the perpetual exclusion of women and their descendants. The descendants of the Reigning Prince will be grown in the Eastern-Orthodox religion."

Article 83 of the Constitution made clear what happened when there were no direct descendant to the throne: "In the absence of descendants in the male line of Prince Karl I von Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen, the succession to the throne continues to the eldest of his brothers and then to their descendants following the rules established in the preceding article."

In 1881 the Reigning Prince -Karl I- became King Carol I of Romania (from 1866 until 1881 his title was Prince of the United Principalities of Romania) and he had one daughter, Princess Maria. Strictly applying Article 83 of the Constitution of 1866, King Carol I, with the full approval of the Government and the Romanian Parliament, assigned his his heir: Prince Ferdinand von Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen, son of his brother Prince Leopold. This Prince Ferdinand is the grandfather of the current King Michael. In 1914 he became King of Romania. In 1923 the new Constitution of the Kingdom of Romania was settled. In this new Constitution the rules regarding the succession were reviewed.

Article 78 reads: "In the absence of male-line descendants of His Majesty King Carol I von Hohenzollern, the succession to the throne belongs to the eldest of his brothers or their descendants, following the rules established in the preceding article. When none of his brothers or their descendants are alive or when they have renounced the throne, then the King may designate his successor from amongst the members of a sovereign dynasty of Europe, with the acceptance by a national representation as determined in Article 79."

The analysis of this article, connected with articles 77 and 79, learns that this is a confirmation of the fundamental concept of the Salic law and indicates the Hohenzollerns as heirs to the throne and leaves the possibility to the Sovereign, in absence of other heirs, to indicate a prince of an European sovereign dynasty as his heir. The King could only do this after a formal waiver of rights by the Hohenzollerns and with the requirement of an approval by Parliament.

The dynastic complications

The first dynastic constitutional crisis appeared in 1926, after Crown Prince Carol, the eldest son of King Ferdinand I, formally renounced his rights to the throne. The Prince wanted to live abroad, mainly in France, and made personal choices which were not approved by the royal family. With regret King Ferdinand accepted his son's renunciation and requested Parliament to take note. The Parliament approved the change in the order of succession to the throne, by appointing the 5 years old Prince Michael as heir. Only a year later, in 1927, King Ferdinand died and his nephew, though still a child, became King Michael. His uncle Prince Nicholas, the Patriarch of the Orthodox Church and the President of the Supreme Court of Justice became regents for the young King.

The first reign of King Michael ended abruptly in 1930 when his father Prince Carol returned to Romania and reclaimed the throne, issuing a proclamation as King, with the support of a parts of the political class as well the armed forces. Prince Carol became King Carol II and his son became the heir again, with an additional title: Great Voivode of Alba Iulia. In September 1940, King Carol II was forced to abdicate and his son Prince Michael became King again, for a second time. In 1947, King Michael was forced to abdicate by the Communists. This abdication was declared as null and void by the King himself as it was signed under duress and at the risk of the own safety of the King and the royal family. After his resignation the King and the royal family went into exile in Switzerland, only to return to Romania for the first time in 1997.

The family of King Michael
As King Michael always has been faithful to the monarchical constitution of 1923, which clearly expresses the succession, he was faced with the difficult problem of his succession to the dynastic rights. In 1948 the King married Princess Anne de Bourbon de Parme. The royal couple got five daughters. None of the five princesses grew up in Romania and no one of them married a prince.

The eldest daughter, Princess Margareta, lives in Romania, devoting herself to charity and often representing her father at ceremonies. This representation has intensified in recent years due to the advanced age of King Michael. In 1996 Princess Margareta married Radu Duda, an actor from Romania. The couple have no children.

The second daughter, Princess Elena, married with the British Professor Robin Medforth Mills (then a top diplomat at the United Nations). The couple got two chilren: Nicholas Medforth Mills and Karina Medforth Mills. The couple divorced. After the divorce Princess Elena married the British lawyer Alexander Nixon McAteer.

The third daughter, Princess Irina, married the American businessman John Kreuger with whom she had two sons: Michael Kreuger and Angelica Kreuger. The couple divorced. After the divorce Princess Irina married another American named John Walker. The couple ended as defendants in a trial on charges of organizing illegal cockfights.

The fourth daughter, Princess Sofia, married without approval with the Frenchman Alain Biarneix with whom she had a daughter named Elizabeth Biarneix. The couple divorced. After the divorce Princess Sofia reconciled with her parents.

The fifth and youngest daughter, Princess Maria, lives in Romania and sometimes represents her father, together with her eldest sister. Princess Maria was married to an American of Polish origin, Casimir Mistkowsky but this couple divorced as well. There are no children from this marriage.

After the fall of Communism and the official return of King Michael to his homeland, the popularity of the royal family grew continually. According to recent surveys the King enjoyed the full confidence of approximately 45% of the Romanians and the monarchy -according to polls- was seen favorably by 30% of the population. These data showed that the opportunities for a monarchy in Romania were something concrete and have once again reiterated the need for a clarification on the succession of dynastic rights.

(continue in the next post)

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  #438  
Old 03-05-2016, 06:08 AM
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(continuation from the previous post)

The German Hohenzollerns

According the dynastic laws provided in the Constitution of 1923, applying Salic law, there are no direct descendants in the male line of King Michael. In Germany however, there are 14 princes alive, all descendants from the brothers of King Carol I of Romania. The head of the German branch is Prince Karl Friedrich von Hohenzollern, born in 1952. This Prince is the sole owner of the business group that deals with the administration of the forests, domains, castles and other assets of his House. The group also owns steelworks and companies manufacturing technic applications and transmissions. The Prince married Countess Alexandra Schenck von Stauffenberg to whom in 1987 a son was born: Hereditary Prince Alexander. The couple also got three daughters: the princesses Filippa, Flaminia and Antonia. After a divorce, the Prince remarried in 2010 with the German businesswoman Katharina de Zomer.

The dynastic question today
In the 1990's some politicians and monarchists saw possibilities for a dialogue with the German Hohenzollerns regarding the succession, as regulated by the Constitution. There was also talk of King Michael adopting his nephew Nicholas. However the King took another path: in 1997 King Michael announced his intention to appoint his eldest daughter Princess Margareta as the one who would continue his mission. This intention has been reiterated in the last statement of the King, dated February 2, 2016 as was released by the Council of the Crown following the King's admission in a clinic in Lausanne.

In 1999 King Michael requested his cousin Prince Friedrich Wilhelm von Hohenzollern, the father of the present head of the House, to give a title to the husband of Princess Margareta. King Michael came to a document signed by the head of the House with which his son-in-law, Radu Duda, could claim the title of Prince von Hohenzollern-Veringen. At that time there was still a dialogue between King Michael and the German Hohenzollerns. According reports the relations cooled more and more with the advancing of years. Prince Karl Friedrich, the present head of the House has never hidden his disapproval of granting a non-existing Hohenzollern title to a non-Hohenzollern, as happened in the case of Radu Duda.

In 2001 King Michael took a surprising decision that would upset the future dynastic question of Romania: he announced to break all ties with the Hohenzollern dynasty and that neither he nor his descendants would be Prince (Princess) von Hohenzollern anymore.

In 2007 the King created and signed a document which theoretically can not have any constitutional value, since the King no longer reigns and no Government or Parliament could ratify it. That document is entitled "Basic principles of the Royal House of Romania". In this document the King announced that times have changed and he saw no reason for the persistence of the Salic law. He inserted his daughters and his grandchildren in a new proposed line of succession which is obviously contrary to the entire Romanian constitutional tradition.

King Michael also granted his son-in-law Radu Duda the title Prince of Romania with the prefix of Royal Highness. He announced that also his nephew Nicholas Medforth Mills, the son of Princess Elena, would become Prince of Romania and a Royal Highness at the age of 25 years. This was, however, in assumption that Parliament -when the people would decide to restore the monarchy- has to consider this new proposed line of succession. Again King Michael has acknowledged that only Parliament has the right to change the rules of succession to the throne.

The German prudence
The reactions of Prince Karl Friedrich von Hohenzollern to all decisions of King Michel between 2001 and 2007 have always been prudent. Basically Prince Karl Friedrich repeated his criticism that King Michael's son-in-law has been given a non-existing title connected with his House, which on itself could not be granted at all. The Prince has never publicly commented on other decisions by the King. Prince Karl Friedrich has also refused to comment on plans by Radu Duda to run for the the presidency of the Republic (after all the fuss the application was never implemented).

Prince Karl Friedrich has never declared himself ready to abandon his activities in Germany and to move to Romania in order to become familiar with the nation, only stressing that Romania's situation was very difficult but at the same time reiterated that the decision concerning the return to a monarchy was up to the Romanian people. There was no formal renunciation of dynastic rights but also no expressed explicit interest either. As Prince Karl Friedrich spoke in a personal capacity and not on behalf of the other princes of his House, it is difficult to understand where the other Hohenzollerns stand in the dynastic pretensions to which they are entitled to by the Constitution of Romania and the laws of the royal dynasty.

The mess of additional exclusions from the succession
The Romanian succession has complicated further in the last two years, as King Michael had agreed to make additional changes to the same line of succession proposed by him in 2007. He excluded his daughter Princess Irina, his grandson Michael Kreuger and his granddaughter Angelica Kreuger following the legal problems of the Princess. It is not clear why there has not been any news-release on the exclusion of these three successors. It has also not been understood why the children of Princess Irina were excluded from the succession as well, since they were totally unrelated to their mother's legal problems.

But what has really shook the Romanian royalists was the exclusion, completely with a Royal Decree, of another grandchild of the King: Nicholas Medforth Mills, who by then (we are in the summer of 2015) -having reached the age of 25 years and according to the provisions of his grandfather- was known as His Royal Highness Prince Nicolae of Romania. Nicholas lived in Bucharest and had become popular in the country, representing the hope for all those who wanted to see the future of the monarchy in Romania with a direct descendant of King Michael, though not in the male line. The reasons for the exclusion of Nicholas are not known and explanations were extremely abstract. We have read and heard it in all colours in the media, from a supposed child out-of-wedlock to other theories even more colourful, but there has been no grounding in any of these.

After the upheavals of August 2015, there remain four people in the proposed line of succession from King Michael. From these four people only the two daughters without children are living in Romania. The two granddaughters of the King who are still in his proposed line of succession are living abroad, do not speak Romanian and they do not have close ties with the country. Many have seen these dynastic "reforms" as a significant obstacle to the success that the Romanian monarchy was receiving in recent years, perhaps driven by forces hostile to the monarchy. But then we remain within the framework of making assumptions.

Three directions
We can conclude that today the Romanian monarchists are at crossroads:
- to request the German Hohenzollerns to assume their responsibilities in the context of dynastic succession, thus respecting the Constitution of 1923 and the Romanian traditon;
- to accept the proposed line by King Michael, which has obviously never been approved by the republican Parliament and otherwise indicates new generations of pretenders to the throne (his grandchildren Karina Medforth Mills and Elisabeth Biarneix) whom currently have no ties with the country;
- some monarchists are even open to a third way which would be to reinstate Nicholas Medforth Mills back into in the line of succession from which he was excluded last year, but this would be quite a stretch in an already complicated situation.

Certainly indicating a line of succession which has not been endorsed by Parliament and in contradiction to the last Constitution has only complicated the question of succession and all this has become clear now that King Michael is at a very advanced age and with an extremely poor health. Who will be the future pretender to the throne of Romania? His Highness Prince Karl Friedrich von Hohenzollern with strong legal and dynastical grounds? Her Royal Highness Princess Margareta of Romania as is desired by her father? Or the excluded grandson, Nicholas Medforth Mills, whom still enjoys popularity in Romania?

By wishing a speedy recovery to His Majesty King Michael, expressing our attachment to his august family, we hope that these dynastic complications do not affect the great work done in Romania to reaffirm the need for the Crown.
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  #439  
Old 03-05-2016, 06:48 AM
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The article is on www.monarchia.it which is the site of the Italian royalists.
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  #440  
Old 03-05-2016, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
My summarization in English from [URL="http://www.monarchia.it/news_2016_romania_dinastica.html"]ROMANIA: LA COMPLESSA SUCCESSIONE DEL RE MICHELE
[/SIZE][/FONT]

Thank you for the translation Duc, what a fantastic job you've done.
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