Succession to the Romanian Throne, Part 1

[Gaudete]

I can’t tell if you’re serious or if you’re trolling but why, when they have supported Margareta thus far, would the government suddenly decide to throw the question open to Karl or Nicholas? Unless they wanted to doom the thing to failure from the word go. You can’t pretend the last decade hasn’t happened. Or the last century.

 

[Cory]

In 1975 the monarchy was not restored. There was a "sede vacante" under General Franco, who acted as Jefe del Estado during that period. In 1975 there was no Republic of Spain turning into a kingdom. It was "just" Don Juan Carlos de Borbón y Borbón who took the empty throne, ending the "sede vacante". The state structure did not change.

It was certainly not the restoration wanted by the Count of Barcelona but not the recognized Head of the Royal Family became the King.
In the Romanian case now you have a theoretical Heir to the late King in the person of HSH Prince Karl but there is no official statement he wants to accept this. The only descendant of the King that could gain success for the Monarchy is certainly Nicholas de Roumanie Medforth Mills who is not contested by the monarchists and by a part of the public opinion.

 

[maria-olivia]

Cory ,Once more you are wrong.
Why would HSH Prince Karl of HS be heir of the corrupted Republic of Romania ?
Even Nicholas married civily secretly at the same moment of the King's Funeral . Is that normal to you?
The Crown Princess and her Husband know the Situation.

 

[Cory]

Cory ,Once more you are wrong.
Why would HSH Prince Karl of HS be heir of the corrupted Republic of Romania ?
Even Nicholas married civily secretly at the same moment of the King's Funeral . Is that normal to you?
The Crown Princess and her Husband know the Situation.

I do not know if the Hohenzollerns are really interested in their dynastic rights in Romania.
Nobody said the civil marriage of the King's grandson was in December.

 

[Ilse]

I do not know if the Hohenzollerns are really interested in their dynastic rights in Romania.
Nobody said the civil marriage of the King's grandson was in December.

Here it is:
Royal Musings: Nicholas Medforth Mills has married in secret
https://www.romaniatv.net/principel...n-secret-cand-va-avea-loc-nunta_393251.html#n
Cine este socrul fostului principe Nicolae. Tatăl Alinei Binder are o istorie interesantă | Click

 

[andrew]

.

Margareta is 68 years old now-so if nothing extraordinary happens, she can live for another 20 years or even more. 20 years is a long period, a lot can happen. Elisabeta-Karina will be 30 in 2019, maybe she will move to Romania and become more popular than her brother.
As much as I would like it, I can't see a reconciliation between Margareta and Nicholas-too many nasty things have been said. Imo the only way to reconciliation would be if Nicholas clears the paternity question of his alleged daughter and then there could be some apologies from both sides. If he proves to be the father of that child than he should take responsability and try to ask for forgivness from her mother, aunt, wife and the public and hope for the best. But still then,there would be the incident from Aubonne-if he indeed had forced his way in and assaulted persons in the household than he is not worthy to call himself a prince. If the incident was exaggerated then the Royal House had lied in their statement, which would be pretty awkward,too.
In conclusion I cannot see a win-win situation in the relationship Margareta-Nicholas.

 

[Ish]

Cory ,Once more you are wrong.
Why would HSH Prince Karl of HS be heir of the corrupted Republic of Romania ?
Even Nicholas married civily secretly at the same moment of the King's Funeral . Is that normal to you?
The Crown Princess and her Husband know the Situation.

Karl Friedrich, Prince of Hohenzollern is the heir to Michael I’s claim to the throne of Romania in accordance to the 1923 Romanian constitution (the constitution that was in place when Michael was on the throne).

The constitution decreed that the succession would follow Salic law, and as Michael has no sons, his descendants are excluded from succeeding. Instead, the next male-line relative inherits - in this case, as Michael’s father (Carol II) had no other legitimate sons, and his uncle (Nicholas) had no children, the succession then goes to the line of William, Prince of Hohenzollern, elder brother of Ferdinand I of Romania (Michael’s grandfather).

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Karl Friedrich, Prince of Hohenzollern is the heir to Michael I’s claim to the throne of Romania in accordance to the 1923 Romanian constitution (the constitution that was in place when Michael was on the throne).

The constitution decreed that the succession would follow Salic law, and as Michael has no sons, his descendants are excluded from succeeding. Instead, the next male-line relative inherits - in this case, as Michael’s father (Carol II) had no other legitimate sons, and his uncle (Nicholas) had no children, the succession then goes to the line of William, Prince of Hohenzollern, elder brother of Ferdinand I of Romania (Michael’s grandfather).

All correct. But why are you advocating Nicholas then, and not Karl Friedrich, the Fürst von Hohenzollern?

 

[MAfan]

I do not know if the Hohenzollerns are really interested in their dynastic rights in Romania.

Actually Prince Karl Friedrich of Hohenzollern - to the best of my knowledge - has stated several times that he isn't interested in the Romanian succession and throne.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Actually Prince Karl Friedrich of Hohenzollern - to the best of my knowledge - has stated several times that he isn't interested in the Romanian succession and throne.

That is not of interest as this is not how a monarchy works. Karl Friedrich can not speak for his son, or his brother, or his nephews. Likewise Charles can state not to have any interest in the throne, but he can not speak for William, or George, or Charlotte, or Harry...

 

[Cory]

That is not of interest as this is not how a monarchy works. Karl Friedrich can not speak for his son, or his brother, or his nephews. Likewise Charles can state not to have any interest in the throne, but he can not speak for William, or George, or Charlotte, or Harry...

None of the Princes of Hohenzollern gave up formally their dynastic Romanian rights. They should speak about this themselves.

The rightful Heirs are the Hohenzollerns but they are not very known by the Romanians.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

None of the Princes of Hohenzollern gave up formally their dynastic Romanian rights. They should speak about this themselves.

The rightful Heirs are the Hohenzollerns but they are not very known by the Romanians.

There are no "rightful heirs" in essence: there is not one state in the world which does not recognize the current Romanian republic and government as the rightful Authority of the State of Romania.

At best the Hohenzollerns are possible claimants to a lost throne. Like there are more possible claimants. The Fürst and his son are busy managing a grand ancestral estate. Their guess will possibly be that any effort towards Romania is lost energy and most likely they are right with that.

 

[Ish]

All correct. But why are you advocating Nicholas then, and not Karl Friedrich, the Fürst von Hohenzollern?

Please do not put words into my mouth. I have not advocated for Nicholas at all.

I do not agree that the Hohenzollerns should be the successors simply because of the 1923 constitution, but I also don’t believe the future lays in line of Michael’s descendants.

 

[MAfan]

That is not of interest as this is not how a monarchy works. Karl Friedrich can not speak for his son, or his brother, or his nephews. Likewise Charles can state not to have any interest in the throne, but he can not speak for William, or George, or Charlotte, or Harry...

I know how monarchy works.
I was just pointing out that the Prince of Hohenzollern has in fact stated that he doesn't have any interest in the Romanian succession and monarchy.
His son, or his brothers, or his cousins may - on the contrary - be as much interested as you want, but still - according to the principles of the monarchical system - in this moment Karl Friedrich is the only one in his family who could nowadays have a claim to the Romanian succession and crown.
If he doesn't do, if he doesn't want to do, then it is quite irrelevant what his son, brothers, nephews or cousins think about the matter.
And, by the way, it is a totally different situation than i.e. the Prince of Wales not being interested in the British throne. In Romania there isn't a monarchy; just there are groups who are advocating the "restoration", which most likely wouldn't be a proper "restoration" of the monarchy as it was before it was abolished in 1947, but rather it would be the "creation", the establishment of a new monarchy, whose rules would be settled now. If the legitimate claimant isn't interested in pursuing such goal, then the whole process comes to an end, since he can't be bypassed by a son, brother or anyone else more interested in it: such way of acting would imply a betrayal of all the principles ruling the succession in monarchies, wouldn't it?

 

[Cory]

I know how monarchy works.
I was just pointing out that the Prince of Hohenzollern has in fact stated that he doesn't have any interest in the Romanian succession and monarchy.
His son, or his brothers, or his cousins may - on the contrary - be as much interested as you want, but still - according to the principles of the monarchical system - in this moment Karl Friedrich is the only one in his family who could nowadays have a claim to the Romanian succession and crown.
If he doesn't do, if he doesn't want to do, then it is quite irrelevant what his son, brothers, nephews or cousins think about the matter.
And, by the way, it is a totally different situation than i.e. the Prince of Wales not being interested in the British throne. In Romania there isn't a monarchy; just there are groups who are advocating the "restoration", which most likely wouldn't be a proper "restoration" of the monarchy as it was before it was abolished in 1947, but rather it would be the "creation", the establishment of a new monarchy, whose rules would be settled now. If the legitimate claimant isn't interested in pursuing such goal, then the whole process comes to an end, since he can't be bypassed by a son, brother or anyone else more interested in it: such way of acting would imply a betrayal of all the principles ruling the succession in monarchies, wouldn't it?

I agree that HSH Prince Karl is automatically the rightful Heir and he has to give up formally his rights in order to speak about the other Hohenzollerns.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Please do not put words into my mouth. I have not advocated for Nicholas at all.

I do not agree that the Hohenzollerns should be the successors simply because of the 1923 constitution, but I also don’t believe the future lays in line of Michael’s descendants.

Sorry, I thought it was Cory who wrote the post, but it was you. You have not advocated Nicholas indeed, I had another poster in mind.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I know how monarchy works.
I was just pointing out that the Prince of Hohenzollern has in fact stated that he doesn't have any interest in the Romanian succession and monarchy.
His son, or his brothers, or his cousins may - on the contrary - be as much interested as you want, but still - according to the principles of the monarchical system - in this moment Karl Friedrich is the only one in his family who could nowadays have a claim to the Romanian succession and crown.
If he doesn't do, if he doesn't want to do, then it is quite irrelevant what his son, brothers, nephews or cousins think about the matter.
And, by the way, it is a totally different situation than i.e. the Prince of Wales not being interested in the British throne. In Romania there isn't a monarchy; just there are groups who are advocating the "restoration", which most likely wouldn't be a proper "restoration" of the monarchy as it was before it was abolished in 1947, but rather it would be the "creation", the establishment of a new monarchy, whose rules would be settled now. If the legitimate claimant isn't interested in pursuing such goal, then the whole process comes to an end, since he can't be bypassed by a son, brother or anyone else more interested in it: such way of acting would imply a betrayal of all the principles ruling the succession in monarchies, wouldn't it?

I agree. For real restoration of the kingdom of 1947 the ball is at the feet of Karl Friedrich, the Fürst von Hohenzollern. And so far he has remained stoney silent. The only thing he stated im connection with Romania was his disagreement with Radu using the title Prinz von Hohenzollern-Veringen. Radu indeed ended the use of that title when the Fürst warned he would start a legal procedure against him.

 

[Cory]

I agree. For real restoration of the kingdom of 1947 the ball is at the feet of Karl Friedrich, the Fürst von Hohenzollern. And so far he has remained stoney silent. The only thing he stated im connection with Romania was his disagreement with Radu using the title Prinz von Hohenzollern-Veringen. Radu indeed ended the use of that title when the Fürst warned he would start a legal procedure against him.

I have to agree that the Furst should speak about the issue of Succession. If he is not interested he should formally renounce his theoretical dynastic Romanian rights.

 

[Cory]

According to the line of succession provided most recently by the former Royal Family of Romania, Elizabeth-Karina and Elizabeth-Marie are both in the line, however, I was under the impression (from reading somewhere) that Elizabeth-Karina had renounced her right to succession? Mostly I'm just curious, contemporary royalty is a tad outside my area of interest. I do wonder if Elizabeth-Marie has said anything about these developments?

Neither of them live in Romania or speak Romanian and they are not really connected in a close way to the country and the people.

 

[LadyRohan]

I agree. For real restoration of the kingdom of 1947 the ball is at the feet of Karl Friedrich, the Fürst von Hohenzollern. And so far he has remained stoney silent. The only thing he stated im connection with Romania was his disagreement with Radu using the title Prinz von Hohenzollern-Veringen. Radu indeed ended the use of that title when the Fürst warned he would start a legal procedure against him.

That is not what Karl Friedrich von Hohenzollern said, unless you remove more than half his statement of 2008. In addition to his disagreement around the title of Prince Radu, he also said that the future of the Romanian monarchy laid with the Royal Family of Romania, which, no matter how much it is ignored by some, makes it clear that there is no claim laid by the Hohenzollerns to the throne.

Hence their silence, hence their absence and lack of engagement in Romania. They are, directly, visually and in any other way imaginable, making it clear that the Royal Family is responsible for any future monarchical arrangements in Romania, and that the house that once provided a monarch, will not provide another.

As long as this stands, and there is no engagement from the house of Hohenzollern in Romania, and as long as there is an actual Royal Family in the country engaging with authorities and society in building a presence again, there is no need to continually search for other angles of attack, when it comes to an actual dynastic resurrection in Romania.

If the monarchy returns, it will be under some arrangements made with the Royal Family, unless they themselves decline it, and if they decline, the monarchy won't return. There are no other pretenders around with an interest in the throne, and nobody else who can be taken seriously by the average Romanian with regards to this question.

 

[Enmebaragesi]

Neither of them live in Romania or speak Romanian and they are not really connected in a close way to the country and the people.

Then that rather settles the matter, doesn't it? Unless the two young ladies change their minds eventually and build up a serious rapport with the Romanian people, then even if there are valid lines of succession elsewhere they hardly matter- any restoration would have to rise up organically via the democratic process and that is really only going happen within Michael's line, which is effectively extinct for the purposes of a restoration. Surely neither the present Queen-Pretender or her siblings are in any state to produce royal offspring!

 

[Cory]

Then that rather settles the matter, doesn't it? Unless the two young ladies change their minds eventually and build up a serious rapport with the Romanian people, then even if there are valid lines of succession elsewhere they hardly matter- any restoration would have to rise up organically via the democratic process and that is really only going happen within Michael's line, which is effectively extinct for the purposes of a restoration. Surely neither the present Queen-Pretender or her siblings are in any state to produce royal offspring!

From the Line proposed in 2007 the only one who could continue the hopes of the King for the restoration is Nicholas de Roumanie Medforth Mills.

 

[LadyRohan]

Then that rather settles the matter, doesn't it? Unless the two young ladies change their minds eventually and build up a serious rapport with the Romanian people, then even if there are valid lines of succession elsewhere they hardly matter- any restoration would have to rise up organically via the democratic process and that is really only going happen within Michael's line, which is effectively extinct for the purposes of a restoration. Surely neither the present Queen-Pretender or her siblings are in any state to produce royal offspring!

That is indeed the crux of it

 

[Cory]

The president doesn't seem to be in favour of a referendum to restore the Monarchy:

http://m.adevarul.ro/news/politica/...posibil-1_5a3a6efc5ab6550cb8668756/index.html

 

[maria-olivia]

This is not a scoop Cory !

 

[MAfan]

Well, the real scoop would be if the Presidente supported the restoration...

 

[Marengo]

I suppose he would be making himself unemployed if he did support it. So not a surprise indeed.

 

[Gaudete]

I suppose he would be making himself unemployed if he did support it. So not a surprise indeed.

If the Prime Minister of Romania supports it, that's big news. But the President is hardly like to welcome being turfed out like some retired civil servant. And the Romanian Presidency does have a certain reputation. I would have dropped dead from shock if he had have supported it, the fact that he doesn't is something I think most people just assumed.

 

[Cory]

The prime minister not only does not support it either but he want the Elisabeta Palace back to the state.

 

[tommy100]

I guess theres a big difference in some peoples' eyes from allowing the former King (and by that, his family) the rights to use a Palace that was once theirs for official use and letting the next generation, the 'pretender' to the throne, use it.