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  #361  
Old 02-26-2016, 04:52 AM
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If things don't change and stay a they are, we have on a side the Princes of Hohenzollern who do not have any interest in Romania, on the other side there is a clear possible successor (Princess Margarita), who has some credit, lives in Romania, speaks Romanian, is involved in many activities in Romania, has an active role and possibly an interest in the restoration of the monarchy.
In a longer period, the Hohenzollern line of succession would remain clearer, but still unlikely; the "Michaelist" line of succession, instead, is somehow unclear and for that reason equally unlikely.
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  #362  
Old 02-26-2016, 05:45 AM
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The Hohenzollerns have never formally given up their dynastic rights to the Throne. It was only HH Prince Karl who said he was not extremely interested few tears ago. He was speaking about himself not about all the Hohenzollerns.

HH Prince Karl can give up his dynastic rights in favour of other Prince of Hohenzollern. There are enough Princes in the Hoenzollern House.
I have to remind the constitutional Line of Succession eac time people speak about another "Line" that has nothing to do with the rotal Constitutions of the Kingdom of Romania.
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  #363  
Old 02-26-2016, 06:12 AM
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Yes, but as you constantly remind us he is the first in the "constitutional" line of succession and he is the heir presumptive after King Michael. Not all the other Hohenzollers. Even if all the other Hohenzollerns were interested in the Romanian succession, it would be Prince Karl the only one entitled to take decisions after King Michael's death about the Romanian succession.
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  #364  
Old 02-26-2016, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by MAfan View Post
If things don't change and stay a they are, we have on a side the Princes of Hohenzollern who do not have any interest in Romania, on the other side there is a clear possible successor (Princess Margarita), who has some credit, lives in Romania, speaks Romanian, is involved in many activities in Romania, has an active role and possibly an interest in the restoration of the monarchy.
In a longer period, the Hohenzollern line of succession would remain clearer, but still unlikely; the "Michaelist" line of succession, instead, is somehow unclear and for that reason equally unlikely.
Princess Margareta is just the eldest daughter of the King and she has no dynastic rights according to the Constitutions of the Kingdom of Romania. She and her sister Princess Mary live in Romania and do not have children. The others sisters and their descendance do not live in the country,are not envolved in the life of the Romanian society and do not speak Romanian.
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  #365  
Old 02-26-2016, 06:43 AM
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To me it's laughable that people who live in countries with a monarchy find that acceptable - I really do not understand that and NEVER will.
That's because you seem steadfastly determined not to look beyond the narrow and dismissive way you have misunderstood constitutional monarchy as a form of national government. You make sweeping generalisations about whinging and begging royals, without actually providing any evidence to support such accusations. King Michael, who first became king 89 years ago, is a living symbol of Romania's history. He has not begged for anything, and there is absolutely nothing pretentious or arrogant about this fine old gentleman who served the people of Romania as king. The only arrogance here has been the way you have totally refused to even consider that the Royal House of Romania has found a niche for itself within the Republic of Romania. As such, even as an historical institution, King Michael's successor as Head of the Royal House of Romania is a topic of interest to many people who join in this discussion.
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  #366  
Old 02-26-2016, 07:00 AM
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With opinions like that I'm a bit surprised you're here at all. While many of us disagree on a lot of things and the debates can get quite heated from time to time, we're united in our interest in both the historical and modern aspects of monarchy but you only seem to be here to one time after another criticise and bad mouth both the monarchical system and the people being part of it.
Interest is not synonymous with approval.
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  #367  
Old 02-26-2016, 07:54 AM
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There is no poll regarding who the people consider as future Heir to the Throne.
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  #368  
Old 02-26-2016, 07:56 AM
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Please note that the merits or otherwise of having a monarchy/republic can be discussed in the following thread:

Monarchy vs Republic
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  #369  
Old 02-26-2016, 08:01 AM
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Those that support a proposal of Line of Succession contrary to the Constitutions of the Kingdom of Romania forget there is no grandchild of nowadays Monarch who lives in the country.
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  #370  
Old 02-26-2016, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Cory View Post
Those that support a proposal of Line of Succession contrary to the Constitutions of the Kingdom of Romania forget there is no grandchild of nowadays Monarch who lives in the country.

No one has forgotten what happened to Prince Nicholas, who, by the way, did live in Bucharest for years as well as speak the language.

Many realize that the young man embodies the hope for a future of the royal family in Romania.

Some ardent royalists do not agree with the decision that was taken in August.
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  #371  
Old 02-26-2016, 08:32 AM
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Mr Medforth Mills was supported by many royalists because he was the only descendant of the King who could bring continuity. Now that chapter is closed. The proposed Lone of the Ki g does not really have any future.
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  #372  
Old 02-26-2016, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Chubb Fuddler View Post
That's because you seem steadfastly determined not to look beyond the narrow and dismissive way you have misunderstood constitutional monarchy as a form of national government. You make sweeping generalisations about whinging and begging royals, without actually providing any evidence to support such accusations. King Michael, who first became king 89 years ago, is a living symbol of Romania's history. He has not begged for anything, and there is absolutely nothing pretentious or arrogant about this fine old gentleman who served the people of Romania as king. The only arrogance here has been the way you have totally refused to even consider that the Royal House of Romania has found a niche for itself within the Republic of Romania. As such, even as an historical institution, King Michael's successor as Head of the Royal House of Romania is a topic of interest to many people who join in this discussion.
This is a very good way of summing up the status quo.
The greater cause is the debate of monarchy vs. republic, and it is natural to assume that most people on monarchical forums, with a few visible exceptions, are in favour of monarchical restorations wherever possible, and believe in the virtues of monarchies as a form of government.
If that basis is shared, the question becomes how one best drives the cause forward, and which person(s) can best promote the interest of monarchy in any given country.

I don't know who will be asked to assume the throne in Romania if it is restored, and neither does anyone else on these forums, but I do know this: If one thinks that the world will return to 70 years ago, and that a monarchy in Europe will be restored bypassing women because they're women, and an old line of succession said so in days long gone, they should have another think about it.

The facts are clear, most politicians say it straight out, that if they started from scratch and were choosing a government today, with little or no historical links to a certain family, they would not choose a monarchy as its basis. As a monarchist, I still understand that, because to many, it is both an illogical construct, and for politicians, it removes one of the ways they can achieve power, through a precidency.

However, when there are existing monarchies that function, or in countries where there are former royal families actively working, discreetly intermixing in the fabric of society, there is a chance of changing the system of government to what it once was, but that change is based on the people that advocate it, who represent it towards the public. In Romania, that is the Royal Family.

Yes, the King has 5 daughters and no sons. 70-80 years ago, that might have been an issue, and if the monarchy had not been abolished, maybe, just maybe they would had been sidelined and a male from the house of Hohenzollern would had been summoned after King Michael would pass away.

Does anyone genuinely believe that? If the Royal House was still ruling in Romania, in 2016, King Michael still being alive, Romania being a modern and Westernized country in the EU, would the politicians not have changed the constitution to allow for female succession, so that Margareta would have assumed the throne after her father?

This is the real world we live in. Restoring a monarchy is an uphill climb in todays world. It takes an incredible effort both on the part of the family, it takes political bravery and a PR-machine to sell it to the public, but most of all, it requires support by those who actually favour a monarchy.

That is where I get lost in this debate, where one bludgeons the other with facts about ancient lines of succession etc. Nobody doubts what the line of succession said in 1947, before the monarchy was abolished.

What I, and most others, ask on these forums, and in our discussions with Romanian friends and others, is what is realistic today. Do we try to restore the monarchy based on the people who represent the heritage, the family and the former King, or do we build a new monarchy, and find a Prince from the old house that provided the first King in the 19th century?

The old constitution is dead, as is the line of succession. There is no dome over the monarchy, as Duc wrote in an earlier post in this thread, because that is not how the world works. An institution, a construct of any kind that refuses to update, to adapt and to change when necessary, has no survivability in our world today, or in the rapidly changing world of tomorrow.

That is where it stands, and that forms the basis of what is possible to achieve. That is what King Michael tried to express when he wrote a document under his own seal, that he encouraged parliament to consider.

Many ask monarchists to be realistic. That is realism in action. The world has changed. The King knows that. People and politicians know that. We need to know that as well, if the goal of seeing the monarchy return to Romania, is to happen at all.
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  #373  
Old 02-26-2016, 08:43 AM
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Obviously you do not know Romania too much if you suppose Romanian would ignore not only the Constitutions of the Kingdom but also long established traditions.
If you were also realistic you would notice no grandchild of the King lives in the country and so the King's descendants are not really linked with the country except the two daughters of the King that are childless.
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  #374  
Old 02-26-2016, 08:56 AM
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Obviously you do not know Romania too much if you suppose Romanian would ignore not only the Constitutions of the Kingdom but also long established traditions.
If you were also realistic you would notice no grandchild of the King lives in the country and so the King's descendants are not really linked with the country except the two daughters of the King that are childless.
I have never commented on your bonds with Romania and your knowledge of the land and its people. I would thank you to extend the same courtesy to me.

You keep using the argument that the Crown Princess and her sister, Princess Maria, are childless. Would you support their succession if they weren't?

Nicholas is closely linked with the country, and despite your best efforts to always call it a 'closed chapter', I guess reading the news, blogs etc, might help you realize that to many Romanians, it is not, and to many monarchists, he represents the future of the monarchy after his aunt, the CP.

If a single mother can become Queen of Norway, I'm sure a single Prince who has a child out of wedlock can become King in a restored kingdom of Romania. Nicholas has far closer ties to Romania than any Hohenzollern, he represents his grandfathers heritage and for whatever reason last years events took place, I believe he is the future still, and that he will be restored and return to Romania at some point.

I have yet to meet a Romanian who doesn't think a restored monarchy will be based on someone from the RF. They might not all think it will happen, and not all of them like the King, or the CP, or Prince Radu, but that is where they see it as realistic.

I remember asking one of my best friends not long ago if he would support restoring the monarchy under a Prince of Hohenzollern being asked to assume the throne. I'll never forget his face as he shouted: Hohen-who?!

I guess the world has moved on.
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  #375  
Old 02-26-2016, 09:44 AM
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There are Romanian royalists that support the constitutional Line of Succession even if many Romanians do not kno the nowadays Hohenzollerns. The majority of Romanians have no clue who Ms Medforth Mills or Ms Biarneix are too.
The two Princesses that live in Romania are childless and this is a fact. The others descendants of the King do not live in the country and are not really envolved in the Romanian society. This is a fact too. Mr Medforth Mills has his supporters but his supporters are not neccesarily the supporters of his eldest aunt. Another fact.
All those that respect the royalist Romanian traditions know what the Constitution of 1923 said about Succession.
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  #376  
Old 02-26-2016, 09:51 AM
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This constitution of 1923 did (i don't have read it)says something about the religion that should be the future king?
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  #377  
Old 02-26-2016, 10:09 AM
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The article 78 who spoke about the succession of the Hohenzollerns did not mention that.
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  #378  
Old 02-26-2016, 10:30 AM
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This constitution of 1923 did (i don't have read it)says something about the religion that should be the future king?
It says that the King has to be orthodox, but for some reason, some people here say that this should be ignored as being irrelevant in 2016, while those of us who advocate updating a line of succession to correspond with 2016, are ignorant of history.

Figure it out those who can :)
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  #379  
Old 02-26-2016, 10:35 AM
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Article 77 speaks about the Orthodox religion of the descendants of the King. The First two Kings of Romania were Catholic. Nobody had asked Prince Ferdinand to convert to Orthodoxy in order to become Crown Prince of Romania when King Carol I did not have sons. Now we are in the same situation like with the Succession of Carol I but now there is no more a National official Church in Romania but 18 equal religious denominations.
Article 78 speaks about what happens if the King has no descedants in direct male Line and indicates the descendants of the brothers of King Carol I without any other requirements.
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  #380  
Old 02-26-2016, 10:47 AM
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It says that the King has to be orthodox, but for some reason, some people here say that this should be ignored as being irrelevant in 2016, while those of us who advocate updating a line of succession to correspond with 2016, are ignorant of history.

Figure it out those who can :)
It says that should be Orthodox? But then should not ignore the constitution. But I imagine that if the Hohenzollerns accept the throne that can simply be changed and their religion.
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