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  #301  
Old 02-12-2016, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Being one of the rare ladies in the top of the social pyramid helps being recognized by the public in that same sea of male presence. This is pretty logical in my personal opinion.
Your thoughts regarding her high profile in relation to men are interesting, Duc_et_Pair, but the surveys I was referring to refer to her profile in relation to other women, not in relation to men as well, so I don't know how she fares in that comparison.
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  #302  
Old 02-21-2016, 04:50 PM
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The fact somebody is very known in a country does not mean that person has dynastic rights or could become Head of state.
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  #303  
Old 02-22-2016, 07:43 AM
Aristocracy
 
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Originally Posted by Cory View Post
The fact somebody is very known in a country does not mean that person has dynastic rights or could become Head of state.
Unless you organise a coup d'état, you don't become head of state in a democracy if you are not well-known.

"Dynastic rights" count for little: the people are sovereign and it is they who would choose what rights to confer on and on which individual/family.
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  #304  
Old 02-22-2016, 09:56 AM
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Obviously for you the Constitution of 1923 means nothing.
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  #305  
Old 02-22-2016, 10:40 AM
Aristocracy
 
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Originally Posted by Cory View Post
Obviously for you the Constitution of 1923 means nothing.
Please, be courteous enough to let me express what value I attach to documents and limit yourself to expressing what value you attach to them. If I need a spokesperson or an interpreter, I'll ask for one.
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  #306  
Old 02-22-2016, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy T View Post
Please, be courteous enough to let me express what value I attach to documents and limit yourself to expressing what value you attach to them. If I need a spokesperson or an interpreter, I'll ask for one.
When you show me a paper with your family's legal papers from 1874 or so concerning a Trust at the bank or concerning real estate, I am sure you would take that old piece of paper from 1874 as serious as legalists do concerning the Constitution of 1923...
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  #307  
Old 02-22-2016, 01:25 PM
Aristocracy
 
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
When you show me a paper with your family's legal papers from 1874 or so concerning a Trust at the bank or concerning real estate, I am sure you would take that old piece of paper from 1874 as serious as legalists do concerning the Constitution of 1923...
Here we go again. In a democracy, the sovereignty of the people is paramount: constitutions can be, and are, changed. Romania is a republic. It can only become a monarchy again if (i) the 1923 constitution is "re"adopted and all others abrogated or (ii) a new constitution is adopted which reinstates a monarchy with a set of succession rules laid out. In both cases, this must happen with the consent of the people. If the former happens, the Hohenzollerns must reign in Romania. If the latter happens, the monarch will be whoever is chosen.

Those who wish to reinstate the 1923 constitution and its succession rules are free to campaign for it. Those who wish to reinstate the monarchy under a new constitution are equally entitled to do so.
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  #308  
Old 02-22-2016, 07:18 PM
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Until a new Constitution restores the Monarchy HH Prince Karl remains theoretically future Head of the Royal House after King Michael.
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  #309  
Old 02-23-2016, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Cory View Post
Until a new Constitution restores the Monarchy HH Prince Karl remains theoretically future Head of the Royal House after King Michael.
Karl is already head of the royal house of Hohenzollern and, yes, according to the 1923 constitution, he would become King of Romania on the death of King Michael, were Romania still a monarchy governed under that constitution.
So much for the past.


Now for the present. Today, Romania is not governed under that constitution, and never will be again. It is a republic, the 1923 constitution (nor any other before the current one) having no legal force any more.

It's futile to go round in circles any more on this.
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  #310  
Old 02-23-2016, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Andy T View Post
Karl is already head of the royal house of Hohenzollern and, yes, according to the 1923 constitution, he would become King of Romania on the death of King Michael, were Romania still a monarchy governed under that constitution.
So much for the past.


Now for the present. Today, Romania is not governed under that constitution, and never will be again. It is a republic, the 1923 constitution (nor any other before the current one) having no legal force any more.

It's futile to go round in circles any more on this.
One could always add, although it is with hesitation, knowing the debate it always causes, that the House of Hohenzollern relinquished their rights to the Romanian throne as late as 2008. The princely house of Hohenzollern has thus made it very clear that Romania and the house of Hohenzollern parted ways centuries ago, and despite being from the same lineage, the two entities are distinct now.

If an heir to a restored Romania throne were to be sought outside of the Romanian Royal Family at a time of restoration, it might be that the house of Hohenzollern is asked to provide an heir again, but as long as there is a Royal Family in Romania, willing to serve and able to communicate and connect with the Romanians, it is logical to assume that a dynastic restoration would start from the RF.

Which member(s)? Only time can tell, but to claim that the only 'legal' way to restore a monarchy in Romania is to restore a long-gone constitution is on par with believeing that only 3/5 of black people in America should be counted as citizens, as the American constitution originally said in its 13th amendment, or that one can be stoned to death if wearing clothes made from two different fabrics, as it says in the Bible, Leviticus 19:19.

Time's change, laws, rules and principles adjust to be relevant and a monarchy most of all, banging its head into the wall of democracy as it does, must live in the now to continue to exist. To bang on about a dead constitution and a line of succession rejected by the foreign house once in it, just serves to undermine the monarchical cause, in Romania as well as in other states where a restoration is possible.

When the house of Hohenzollern made it clear that they do not wish to claim rights to the Romanian throne, and King Michael thereafter wrote a proposed new line of succession for parliament to consider should they wish to restore the monarchy, it seems to me that things were done correctly by the dynastic members of both the house of Hohenzollern and the Romanian RF. It therefore follows that any future Romanian monarch will come from the RF, unless something unforeseen happens, and that is where it stands.
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  #311  
Old 02-23-2016, 09:34 AM
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How was the relationship from Queen Anne wth the Hohenzollern ?
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  #312  
Old 02-23-2016, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by LadyRohan View Post
One could always add, although it is with hesitation, knowing the debate it always causes, that the House of Hohenzollern relinquished their rights to the Romanian throne as late as 2008. The princely house of Hohenzollern has thus made it very clear that Romania and the house of Hohenzollern parted ways centuries ago, and despite being from the same lineage, the two entities are distinct now.

If an heir to a restored Romania throne were to be sought outside of the Romanian Royal Family at a time of restoration, it might be that the house of Hohenzollern is asked to provide an heir again, but as long as there is a Royal Family in Romania, willing to serve and able to communicate and connect with the Romanians, it is logical to assume that a dynastic restoration would start from the RF.

Which member(s)? Only time can tell, but to claim that the only 'legal' way to restore a monarchy in Romania is to restore a long-gone constitution is on par with believeing that only 3/5 of black people in America should be counted as citizens, as the American constitution originally said in its 13th amendment, or that one can be stoned to death if wearing clothes made from two different fabrics, as it says in the Bible, Leviticus 19:19.

Time's change, laws, rules and principles adjust to be relevant and a monarchy most of all, banging its head into the wall of democracy as it does, must live in the now to continue to exist. To bang on about a dead constitution and a line of succession rejected by the foreign house once in it, just serves to undermine the monarchical cause, in Romania as well as in other states where a restoration is possible.

When the house of Hohenzollern made it clear that they do not wish to claim rights to the Romanian throne, and King Michael thereafter wrote a proposed new line of succession for parliament to consider should they wish to restore the monarchy, it seems to me that things were done correctly by the dynastic members of both the house of Hohenzollern and the Romanian RF. It therefore follows that any future Romanian monarch will come from the RF, unless something unforeseen happens, and that is where it stands.

As always the one voice of reason in this ongoing Romanian mess.


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  #313  
Old 02-23-2016, 01:34 PM
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I remember we came to this conclusion two or three times before - if the monarchy is restored in Romania, such restoration will be based upon a brand new constitution (as opposed to any previous constitution) and the monarch will either King Michael or one of his heirs.

All that would be needed now is a referendum
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  #314  
Old 02-23-2016, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Jacknch View Post
All that would be needed now is a referendum
That would be 2 referendums. Article 152 of the Constitution of Romania states that the republican form of government "shall not be subject to revision." So that would have to be amended before a referendum on the monarchy could be held.
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  #315  
Old 02-24-2016, 03:27 AM
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The Parliament will decide in case of the Restoration of Monarchy to ask the Hohenzollerns to accept the Crown or to look for another solution.
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  #316  
Old 02-24-2016, 03:46 AM
Aristocracy
 
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Originally Posted by Cory View Post
The Parliament will decide in case of the Restoration of Monarchy to ask the Hohenzollerns to accept the Crown or to look for another solution.
I would express it differently: ."....to ask King Michael to accept the Crown or to look for another solution."
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  #317  
Old 02-24-2016, 04:42 AM
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It is very unlikely the King will be still able to accept the Crown the restoration would not be possible very soon. His proposal of Succession has no constitutional vonsequences so the Succession ofvthe Hohenzollerns is automatic unless they refuse it.
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  #318  
Old 02-24-2016, 05:18 AM
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Do you really think that the Romanian republican Parliament will just unquestioningly ad uncritically follow what the abrogated 1923 Constitution stated about the succession, when (and if) it should chose the new King?
Isn't it practically a bit unlikely?
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  #319  
Old 02-24-2016, 07:47 AM
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They would certainly believe a Prince of Hohenzollern could be a more neutral Head of State that the wife of a man who wanted to candidate to become the president of the republic.
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  #320  
Old 02-24-2016, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Cory View Post
It is very unlikely the King will be still able to accept the Crown the restoration would not be possible very soon. His proposal of Succession has no constitutional vonsequences so the Succession ofvthe Hohenzollerns is automatic unless they refuse it.
No, it is not automatic and here's why:

For anyone - King Michael, his family or the Hohenzollerns - to be offered the throne, a new constitution reinstating the monarchy would have had to be approved beforehand: you cannot offer anyone a throne that doesn't exist.

The throne would be offered to the person designated by the new constitution, according to the rules laid out in that new constitution. In effect, whoever is chosen, a new monarchy will be instated because the old one was abolished. This is essentially what happened in Spain, when the Count of Barcelona was bypassed in favour of King Juan Carlos I.
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