Romanian Succession, Claimants, Titles and Restoration


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I have always said it was only the Parliament who decided on the matter in case of restoration. Those that deny this accept things that have never been decided by the Parliament.
 
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Cory said:
I have always said it was only the Parliament who decided on the matter in case of restoration. Those that deny this accept things that have never been decided by the Parliament.
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If only it was possible to quote from the old, closed-down threads, this would be so easily proven factually wrong, but alas. It’s good to see realism arriving when dealing with the future of the monarchy in Romania, that is how we can keep the progress going and seeing the chance of systemic change on the horizon.
 
The future of Monarchy has nothing to do with compromises with the republican establishment but with acknowledgment of the lack of legitimacy of the republic in Romania.
 
If the future of the monarchy depends on:

Cory said:
acknowledgment of the lack of legitimacy of the republic in Romania
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How would that be done in practical terms? Other than by:

Cory said:
compromises with the republican establishment
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What other suggestions do you have, as you seem unwilling to open a dialogue with politicians? How do you want to get the people of Romania to aknowledge 'lack of legitemacy'? And is there any polling done about how many people feel that the republic is illegitemate? I would expect very few Romanians agree to such an extreme point of view. Although it may be tempting to live in past dreams, it is healthier to live in reality.
 
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That is a practical start perhaps and an interesting issue to watch. Do you know when there will be a ruling on this matter?

How many members does the National convention of the restoration of the monarchy have?
 
The National Convention for Constitutional Monarchy is grouping the different royalists Associations/Clubs in the country.
It's hard to know when there will be a ruling on the matter.
 
Is it known when the trial will start? If it remains unclear, what other ioptions does the association have to get more people to their side to see the supposed illegitimacy of the Romanian republic?

Do you know how manu members the national convention has? So we can get an idea how widely the illegitimacy of the republic is supported?
 
Marengo said:
Is it known when the trial will start? If it remains unclear, what other ioptions does the association have to get more people to their side to see the supposed illegitimacy of the Romanian republic?

Do you know how manu members the national convention has? So we can get an idea how widely the illegitimacy of the republic is supported?
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The lack of legitimacy of the republic is quite accepted by many and certainly not only by the monarchists involved in the National Convention for Constitutional Monarchy.
I do not know where that trial stands now.
 
Cory said:
The lack of legitimacy of the republic is quite accepted by many and certainly not only by the monarchists involved in the National Convention for Constitutional Monarchy.
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'Many' is not a quantifiable measure for any kind of support, and the cause of monarchy cannot and will not be decided in dungeon clubs that do not relate to the practical realities of the outside world.

There is just one way to achieve monarchy in Romania, and that is through public relations and building support among ordinary people. No genuine monarchist would vote against the monarchy being restored just because they didn't like Margareta being the first restored monarch, that would just ensure the republic would continue and monarchy being gone forever.

So, the entire debate is faux. Since she has no children, the next generation, a.k.a Nicholas, will follow her, and that's what all good forces wanting monarchy should focus on. Nothing else serves any purpose, other than to ensure the destruction of any chance of the monarchy returning to Romania at all.
 
She is the one who does not her nephew around the palace so your arguments are based on nothing.
 
Cory said:
She is the one who does not her nephew around the palace so your arguments are based on nothing.
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Is that all you managed to get out of all the posts everyone has written? It's all nothing, whereas your personal attacks against Margareta and clammy embrace of Nicholas as a new tool, is all fine and legitimate?

No wonder the 'real monarchists' have sidelined themselves in Romania, if this is the prevalent attitude.
 
The truth is maybe not comfortable but that's it.
 
An article written by Radu Albu Comanescu, who works at Babeş-Bolyai University doing research in International Relations and International History and Politics.

The Heir to the Romanian Crown: Nicholas de Roumanie
Ziua de Cluj _ Moştenitorul Coroanei României_ Nicholas de Roumanie
Google translation

The translation is never good to get to understand everything written in the article. Those, who speak romanian, get a better information of it.
 
Extraordinary contribution to the understanding of the current constitution. I am still digesting the minutiae. The “Custodian” is claimed to be a regent to the real successor.
 
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Very interesting article (above). So if Margareta is only the "Regent", how old does Nicolas de Roumanie have to be before he can become the next in line without Aunty Margareta interfering? He is already in his 30's and I always thought regency's were set up for minors.
 
That article is trying to straighten bananas. First the thesis is based on the defunct Constitution of the former Kingdom of Romania. After King Michael's death his heir is the Fürst von Hohenzollern. But tja... He seems not interested "and has only one son".

With that hinting that a Fürst von Hohenzollern is too busy with being a Fürst indeed to be a pretender. Conveniently is neglected that besides the Fürst and the Erbprinz there are more Hohenzollerns in line of succession based on the very same Constitution...

Then a jump is made to King Michael's Fundamental Rules. One needs an acrobatic brain to follow the author's argument that Margareta and Elena can not be Queen but their nephew respectively son actually can...

It is pure hineininterpretieren in a virtual world.
 
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Virtual world or not, Nicolae’s public profile continues to grow since his grandfather’s passing. All those public appearances throughout Romania with Alina over the past year only serves to build another perspective. I don’t know who is behind this article on the succession but it is fairly timely on the near eve of Nicolae’s Romanian wedding. There is obviously a different “populist” thought abroad that sees Nicolae as a natural successor.
 
LadyFinn said:
An article written by Radu Albu Comanescu, who works at Babeş-Bolyai University doing research in International Relations and International History and Politics.

The Heir to the Romanian Crown: Nicholas de Roumanie
Ziua de Cluj _ Moştenitorul Coroanei României_ Nicholas de Roumanie
Google translation

The translation is never good to get to understand everything written in the article. Those, who speak romanian, get a better information of it.
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Wow, that's a lot of gymnastics to make king Mihai say something he never did just to promote your own favorite candidate while doing away with the existent male heirs (as that is the premise of the whole discussion). If the king had intended to only allow for male heirs but female line male heirs were fine he would have xhanged his line of succession to two persons: his grandsons. He didn't, however, he included his daughters and granddaughters (and later removed several of his off-spring).
 
Somebody said:
Wow, that's a lot of gymnastics to make king Mihai say something he never did just to promote your own favorite candidate while doing away with the existent male heirs (as that is the premise of the whole discussion). If the king had intended to only allow for male heirs but female line male heirs were fine he would have xhanged his line of succession to two persons: his grandsons. He didn't, however, he included his daughters and granddaughters (and later removed several of his off-spring).
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It is not that difficult. When one is legalistic and looks to the very same document which was the base of King Michael's kingship (the Constitution), then neither Margareta, nor Elena are successors.

When one agrees with the proposed new succession by King Michael, then Margareta and Elena are successors. If one agrees that King Michael can add individuals to the line of succession, then one has to agree that King Michael can remove individuals as well.


:whistling:


I am afraid the authour of this acrobatic salto mortale was not very helpful to Nicholas' case.


:ermm:
 
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Exactly, it's either or not some convenient combination.

Althoigh I could imagine people arguing that he could pro-actively (waiting for the moment Romania becomes a monarchy again) modernize the monarchy by doing away with salic law without giving him the right to pick and choose between individuals - but that's not what the author is doing/arguing.
 
Moved the discussion over here.
wartenberg7 said:
Thank you so much for another lesson of yours...
It might not be hard to understand for us knowing a lot about Royalty and titles because it is part of our interests. But the average person "from the street" is often mystified!


The difference between Nicolae and the children of these spanish princesses you named or the Casiraghis (who are also often wrongly called "Prince Pierre Casiraghi", for instance) in Monaco is that these persons, other than King Mihai´s grandson, have never been titled Prince/ Princess and have not stripped of it again only by an intrigue of a jealous, childless aunt!
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I am sure it is a little confusing for people on the street but I would not include the archbishop among that group nor the royal watchers who hail him as their prince. To me it's rather easy: either you accept Mihai's decisions: in that case he was a prince for 5 years and 4 months and no longer is one and Margareta is currently the head of the family who is the current authority on these matters. Or you don't and in that case he never was a real prince nor is Margareta the current head of the family.

I was wondering what might have happened had the Romanian royal family still been reigning. In that case I would expect that rather early on (see Denmark for example) succession would have turned from salic to semi-salic meaning that the princesses would have been entered in the line of succession as well as their children.
Any children Margareta would have had would surely have been princes and princesses from birth. Her younger sister's children most likely not.

However, when it would have become clear that Margareta was not to have children most likely BOTH children of Elena would have been promoted to prince and princess. So, we would have had prince Nicolae and princess Karina of Romania. In that situation, grandchildren in line of succession would need to ask permission to marry to remain in line to the throne. Under the current circumstances it doesn't seem likely that Margareta would have approved Nicolae's marriage (and especially not if presented after the fact) - and him having a child out of wedlock would probably have meant that he would have been pressured to voluntarily give up his rights to the throne (Monaco is the only monarchy that is extremely lenient; Luxembourg would be an example that seems more comparable and even princes that ended up marrying the mothers of their children had to give up their place in line to the throne) but would have been stripped of his rights at the latest at his wedding day. Making Karina the new heir of her generation.

So, in that case, Nicolae's only hope of remaining in line to the throne would have been to rebuild his relationship with his aunt and mother instead of doing everything to undermine them. Being the 'heir' of his generation they might have been a little more lenient when push comes to shove. Currently, it would still be the right thing to do (next to clearing up the mess around his daughter).

In addition, the Romanian royal family should come up with a clear path forward because a royal house depends on continuity and not knowing who will be the future heir (it is not clear to me whether Karina would be willing to take over some day - I haven't seen any signs that point in that direction) is disastrous in itself.
 
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For the Romanian of the Street a Custudian Queen or an ex prince , they don't know them as their Country is governed by a Sociaist President.
For the Church it seems different , mainly they are for King Michael's Eldest Daughter. (I remember the King's Funerals) .
Princess Margareta has an important press service and all their events are posted but I don't konw in Romanian newspapers .
Nicolae is also asking the press , giving interviews , twitter etc...for his own activites
I wonder what sort Event his wedding will be in Romania. Perhaps the non coming of his family will steal the show. I am sure Nicolae has friends who will attend to be seen on TV and pay the coast of the Wedding. The Romanian of the Street will continue their own life without any interest for the 30 September Wedding in Sinaia.
I am not sure the Duke of Vendome will come he will have his 5th Child at that moment
 
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Somebody said:
However, when it would have become clear that Margareta was not to have children most likely BOTH children of Elena would have been promoted to prince and princess. So, we would have had prince Nicolae and princess Karina of Romania. In that situation, grandchildren in line of succession would need to ask permission to marry to remain in line to the throne. Under the current circumstances it doesn't seem likely that Margareta would have approved Nicolae's marriage (and especially not if presented after the fact) - and him having a child out of wedlock would probably have meant that he would have been pressured to voluntarily give up his rights to the throne (Monaco is the only monarchy that is extremely lenient; Luxembourg would be an example that seems more comparable and even princes that ended up marrying the mothers of their children had to give up their place in line to the throne) but would have been stripped of his rights at the latest at his wedding day. Making Karina the new heir of her generation.
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Karina is attending her brother and sister-in-law's religious wedding, in what is unlikely a move sanctioned by the Custodian of the Crown.

It is worth remembering that King Michael granted Nicholas the style and title of "HRH Prince of Romania" jure sanguinis (see for reference the Fundamental Rules of the Royal House of Romania). Given this, it is unlikely that the king would have taken the step to strip the style and title - it was accorded as part of Nicholas' birthright, effectively, based on the wording of the Fundamental Rules.

Plenty of Romanian monarchists are of the mind that Crown Princess Margarita and Prince Radu pressured King Michael into signing the document that stripped Prince Nicholas of his title and position in the line of succession. This could have taken the form of actual pressure exerted on the elderly king (who in 2015 was, along with his wife...though not to the same degree as the Queen, suffering from the typical memory deficits that can accompany being in one's nineties), or simply flying to Switzerland and presenting the King with a document to sign without totally explaining it to him. Review the positing on the Royal Household's blog about this visit to the king, and you can see that he is surrounded by people who solely visited him for the purpose of ensuring that his signature was affixed to the document they had drafted. Michael had been living in Switzerland full time since late 2014; his wife's health had deteriorated more swiftly than this; the king's oldest and youngest daughters (the only offspring to reside in Romania at the time) visited on occasion but were no means omnipresent: there is little likelihood that the king had any idea of the tensions that had built up between his eldest daughter and his grandson.

This is not a totally unlikely or unheard of scenario - people have done things to hold onto their wealth and positions that are far worse than throwing their nephew under the bus. Many observers tend to forget that the Romanian royal family (or, the Head of it, rather) is not stricken by poverty as was the case in exile.
 
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maria-olivia said:
For the Romanian of the Street a Custudian Queen or an ex prince , they don't know them as their Country is governed by a Sociaist President.
For the Church it seems different , mainly they are for King Michael's Eldest Daughter. (I remember the King's Funerals) .
Princess Margareta has an important press service and all their events are posted but I don't konw in Romanian newspapers .
Nicolae is also asking the press , giving interviews , twitter etc...for his own activites
I wonder what sort Event his wedding will be in Romania. Perhaps the non coming of his family will steal the show. I am sure Nicolae has friends who will attend to be seen on TV and pay the coast of the Wedding. The Romanian of the Street will continue their own life without any interest for the 30 September Wedding in Sinaia.
I am not sure the Duke of Vendome will come he will have his 5th Child at that moment
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Romanians don´ t know them only because the country is governed by a socialist?! The people didn´t even forget them during the communist regime! Have you seen the many thousends of people lining the streets when the late King was buried?
M-O, your ignorance of facts is always a big surprise for me!
 
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Benjamin said:
Karina is attending her brother and sister-in-law's religious wedding, in what is unlikely a move sanctioned by the Custodian of the Crown.

It is worth remembering that King Michael granted Nicholas the style and title of "HRH Prince of Romania" jure sanguinis (see for reference the Fundamental Rules of the Royal House of Romania). Given this, it is unlikely that the king would have taken the step to strip the style and title - it was accorded as part of Nicholas' birthright, effectively, based on the wording of the Fundamental Rules.

Plenty of Romanian monarchists are of the mind that Crown Princess Margarita and Prince Radu pressured King Michael into signing the document that stripped Prince Nicholas of his title and position in the line of succession. This could have taken the form of actual pressure exerted on the elderly king (who in 2015 was, along with his wife...though not to the same degree as the Queen, suffering from the typical memory deficits that can accompany being in one's nineties), or simply flying to Switzerland and presenting the King with a document to sign without totally explaining it to him. Review the positing on the Royal Household's blog about this visit to the king, and you can see that he is surrounded by people who solely visited him for the purpose of ensuring that his signature was affixed to the document they had drafted. Michael had been living in Switzerland full time since late 2014; his wife's health had deteriorated more swiftly than this; the king's oldest and youngest daughters (the only offspring to reside in Romania at the time) visited on occasion but were no means omnipresent: there is little likelihood that the king had any idea of the tensions that had built up between his eldest daughter and his grandson.

This is not a totally unlikely or unheard of scenario - people have done things to hold onto their wealth and positions that are far worse than throwing their nephew under the bus. Many observers tend to forget that the Romanian royal family (or, the Head of it, rather) is not stricken by poverty as was the case in exile.
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Yes, and Nicolae said in one of his interviews that when he talked with his grandfather that only time after the title had been taken away from him, king Mihai asked from Nicolae what projects he then had going on in Romania. So Nicolae understood that the king didn't know/understand that he wasn't a prince anymore.
 
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