Restoration of the Monarchy in Romania

[Cory]

The Hohenzollerns have never asked for such an arrangement and they have nothing to do with it.
The King's Family has a lot of properties and can organize itself very well because of those properties. It is unacceptable in a republic the taxpayers money many have to be spent both for the republican institutions and for the "Royal House".Obviously the King's Family know that when the King won't be officially anymore the members of the Family will have to leave the Palace so that's why they need the deal with the republican politicians. Nothing to do with the restoration of Monarchy.

 

[Benjamin]

The King's Family has a lot of properties and can organize itself very well because of those properties. It is unacceptable in a republic the taxpayers money many have to be spent both for the republican institutions and for the "Royal House".Obviously the King's Family know that when the King won't be officially anymore the members of the Family will have to leave the Palace so that's why they need the deal with the republican politicians. Nothing to do with the restoration of Monarchy.

That must be a very veiled way of saying "when the King is dead."

We have debated the exact specifications of the law that currently allows the Royal Family to inhabit Elisabeta Palace.

As it stands now, it was my understanding that the residence can be used by the Royal House during the lifetimes of King Michael, Queen Anne and Crown Princess Margarita.

A 99-year-lease would technically allow for the sixth and even seventh generations of the Royal Family (i.e. Prince Nicholas and any children he may have) to live in Elisabeta Palace, as obviously the Crown Princess and her husband will be long dead by then. Therefore, this particular portion of the law does seem particularly well-suited to providing the Romanian royals with a base in Bucharest for the next century, and it is difficult to understand why monarchists would oppose such a possibility. Otherwise, the Royal House would be confined to living on their properties outside of the capital, away from the centre of national life.

 

[Cory]

That must be a very veiled way of saying "when the King is dead."

We have debated the exact specifications of the law that currently allows the Royal Family to inhabit Elisabeta Palace.

As it stands now, it was my understanding that the residence can be used by the Royal House during the lifetimes of King Michael, Queen Anne and Crown Princess Margarita.

A 99-year-lease would technically allow for the sixth and even seventh generations of the Royal Family (i.e. Prince Nicholas and any children he may have) to live in Elisabeta Palace, as obviously the Crown Princess and her husband will be long dead by then. Therefore, this particular portion of the law does seem particularly well-suited to providing the Romanian royals with a base in Bucharest for the next century, and it is difficult to understand why monarchists would oppose such a possibility. Otherwise, the Royal House would be confined to living on their properties outside of the capital, away from the centre of national life.

No niece or nephew of the Princess live in Romania so the only persons that benefit from this controversial project of law are Princess Margareta and her husband, Princess Maria ( and her husband if she marries again).
The monarchists support the Monarchy not persons that want republican compromises (and want to change the "Royal House" into a sort of NGO controlled by republican authorities).

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

[...] The King's Family has a lot of properties and can organize itself very well because of those properties. [...]

The King's family may have properties but I doubt they can finance a proper royal organization. The King, the Queen, Princess Margareta and Mr Duda, their living expenditures, the maintenance of the properties, the payment of the employers. A royal lifestyle is expensive.

[...] It is unacceptable in a republic the taxpayers money many have to be spent both for the republican institutions and for the "Royal House". [...]

That is your personal opinion. If the Republic Romania wants to make this arrangement, they are free to do so. Note that the Romanian Parliament decides on this. I have given examples of other republics which have arrangements with their former royal families as well, because they want to settle things in a dignified and prudent manner. Nothing wrong with that. Better a neat arrangement than to vegetate away in a forgotten exile and sell the table silver to make a living.

 

[Cory]

The King's family may have properties but I doubt they can finance a proper royal organization. The King, the Queen, Princess Margareta and Mr Duda, their living expenditures, the maintenance of the properties, the payment of the employers. A royal lifestyle is expensive.



That is your personal opinion. If the Republic Romania wants to make this arrangement, they are free to do so. Note that the Romanian Parliament decides on this. I have given examples of other republics which have arrangements with their former royal families as well, because they want to settle things in a dignified and prudent manner. Nothing wrong with that. Better a neat arrangement than to vegetate away in a forgotten exile and sell the table silver to make a living.

Why should Romanians pay for the expenditures and the staff of a couple that lives in Elisabeta Palace at the moment? This couple has nothing to do with the governing of the country and the country is a republic anyhow.
Of course the quite contested Parliament can vote such a law and then see the reaction of the people.
The reaction of the monarchists is quite understandable but some of them should have understood years ago the real strategy of Elisabeta Palace.

 

[LadyRohan]

Why should Romanians pay for the expenditures and the staff of a couple that lives in Elisabeta Palace at the moment? This couple has nothing to do with the governing of the country and the country is a republic anyhow.
Of course the quite contested Parliament can vote such a law and then see the reaction of the people.
The reaction of the monarchists is quite understandable but some of them should have understood years ago the real strategy of Elisabeta Palace.

Just like serbians pay for their Royal Family while being a republic, as Montenegrins pay for their Royal Family etc. this arrangement is not about who is running the country, that will always be politicians anyway, even in a monarchy.
It's about having a professional organization running a Royal House, and not some ideal grouping of volunteers and idealists setting up an agenda, while the Royal Family get to do what they do best, go out in public, represent and meet.
This organization is set up to formalize the Royal Family as the monarchical representatives, it has nothing to do with the Hohenzollerns or anyone else, and that is clearly the point of despair to some, not even close to all, monarchists. If people who back the return of the monarchy in Romania spend too much time creating negative attention around changes the Riyal Family and the government attempt to make, not only might they torpedo a law, but they might wreck any attempt of progress, as republicans will find support for their arguments that monarchy is elitistic, out if touch and an antiquated system where they can't even agree among themselves that the actual Royal Family should be the ones ruling.
That some don't understand the harm that lies in spinning conspiracy theories about the motives of the Royal Family and son on, is just sad and counter-productive to any Romanian progress.

 

[Cory]

Elisabeta Palace has nothing really to do anymore with the campaign for the restoration of Monarchy. It represents a couple that wants the issue of the palace settled and a financial support for the activities.
The biggest monarchist group lead by Dr. Marinca is against the "strategy" of Elisabeta Palace and certainly the Movement for Kingdom and Criwn does not agree with it either.
The grandchildren and great-grandchildren of the King do not live in Romania and probably many of them are not close in any way to the couple that now leads Elisabeta Palace. So this project is clearly only for certain persons and not for all the King's descendants.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Whatever the reasons or the motives: the State of Romania has offered an agreement with the House of twice their lawful head of state (1927-1930 and 1940-1947). That former head of state is still alive and is represented by his daughter, since he is in frail health. When the State of Romania is so generous to arrange that the use of Elisabeta Palace does not end when the former King passes away, what does one expect? Come on, it is an offer no any serious Royal House can refuse.

It is similar to the generous offer the State of Denmark did to Hereditary Prince Knud of Denmark: he was the Heir until the succession was changed in 1953. While he was never a head of state, and Denmark already funded King Frederik IX and his family, the State wished to make a dignified and prudent settlement: Prince Knud and his family were given Sorgenfri Palace as residence. Prince Knud received an annual allowance. His eldest son Ingolf, Count of Rosenborg still gets an annual income of around 200.000 Euro from the State of Denmark, 63 years after his father lost his position as Hereditary Prince (!).

 

[Cory]

Whatever the reasons or the motives: the State of Romania has offered an agreement with the House of twice their lawful head of state (1927-1930 and 1940-1947). That former head of state is still alive and is represented by his daughter, since he is in frail health. When the State of Romania is so generous to arrange that the use of Elisabeta Palace does not end when the former King passes away, what does one expect? Come on, it is an offer no any serious Royal House can refuse.

They wanted the "offer" in order to continue to live there.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

They wanted the "offer" in order to continue to live there.

Quite understandable. It also means that the former Royal House will have a representative base for their activities. They can receive guests in style, grant audiences, hold receptions with grandeur.

The current Duke of Bavaria lives in a wing of the gigantic Nymphenburg Castle. A representative base for his activities as head of the House of Bavaria (and legitimate Heir to the Stuart claims on the thrones of England, Scotland, France and Ireland).

In essence the same arrangement, made with a republican state.

 

[Cory]

Quite understandable. It also means that the former Royal House will have a representative base for their activities. They can receive guests in style, grant audiences, hold receptions with grandeur.

The current Duke of Bavaria lives in a wing of the gigantic Nymphenburg Castle. A representative base for his activities as head of the House of Bavaria (and legitimate Heir to the Stuart claims on the thrones of England, Scotland, France and Ireland).

In essence the same arrangement, made with a republican state.

Nobody gives a salary to the Duke of Bavaria, His House does not report to the republican authorities and certainly the bavarian state does not interfere in who is the Head of the Royal House and the staff of the Duke is not paid by the state.
The receptions at Elisabeta Palace has nothing to do with the restoration of Monarchy.

 

[LadyRohan]

Nobody gives a salary to the Duke of Bavaria, His House does not report to the republican authorities and certainly the bavarian state does not interfere in who is the Head of the Royal House and the staff of the Duke is not paid by the state.
The receptions at Elisabeta Palace has nothing to do with the restoration of Monarchy.

Once again, just because you repeat something on this forum, over and over and over, does not make it true, and while you do that, the actual Royal Family of Romania, in cooperation with the government, are making arrangements to bring the Royal House into a better structure to perform tasks suited to a Royal Family, all the while having a platform to work from with the perspective of restoration.

That is the expressed goal of the Royal Family, most monarchist organizations and I have yet to meet an ordinary Romanian who knows about the Royal Family, who doesn't think they're the future of the monarchy in Romania.

Just keep writing how the Royal Family consists of an ordinary couple who have no connection with the monarchy and the cause of restoration, but the more you do, the more it's clear that you find them very threatening, otherwise you wouldn't dedicate an inch of energy on them at all.
Ordinary people are no threat. The Royal Family clearly are, sad as that is, from 'monarchists'.

Spend more energy getting the attention of the Hohenzollerns, if that's the path you want Romania to go down. It would settle the issue once and for all, and be a great outlet for all the excess energy clearly on display, defeating an 'ordinary couple', making practical, financial and organizatorial arrangements for the future of the Royal House and the monarchy in Romania.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Nobody gives a salary to the Duke of Bavaria, His House does not report to the republican authorities and certainly the bavarian state does not interfere in who is the Head of the Royal House and the staff of the Duke is not paid by the state.
The receptions at Elisabeta Palace has nothing to do with the restoration of Monarchy.

Excuse me: almost 100 years after the end of the monarchy the former Bavarian royal family still receives 14 million Euro per year, apart from a whole series of arrangements for former royal residences, domains, estates and other properties.

And yes... the financial reports are accountable to the State of Bavaria, since these arrangements were vested in Law (like Romania wants to do) and no... the State of Bavaria does not interfere in the headship of the former Royal House. By my understanding also the State of Romania is not interfering in the headship of the former Royal House.

Erben der bayerischen Könige kassieren noch Millionen - Bayern - Süddeutsche.de

 

[Cory]

Excuse me: almost 100 years after the end of the monarchy the former Bavarian royal family still receives 14 million Euro per year, apart from a whole series of arrangements for former royal residences, domains, estates and other properties.

And yes... the financial reports are accountable to the State of Bavaria, since these arrangements were vested in Law (like Romania wants to do) and no... the State of Bavaria does not interfere in the headship of the former Royal House. By my understanding also the State of Romania is not interfering in the headship of the former Royal House.

Erben der bayerischen Könige kassieren noch Millionen - Bayern - Süddeutsche.de

Recognizing a "Head of the Royal House" is done according to what?

I do not suppose the Duke of Bavaria has a salary from the state.

 

[LadyRohan]

Recognizing a "Head of the Royal House" is done according to what?

I do not suppose the Duke of Bavaria has a salary from the state.

Every monarch and every representing member of a Royal Family in a constitutional monarchy is paid for by the state. Romania, Montenegro and Serbia will all be republics who pay their former monarchs, or their heirs, to do certain tasks and to support the Royal Family.
Frankly, I find it a very generous thing, and it tells me that the governing politicians see that the misdoings of the past is something they can help rectify, and that it's up to the people if they want the system to change in the end.

Since you think they're an ordinary couple, why focus on their salary or arrangements at all?

 

[Cory]

The politicians will have to explain why in a republic the daughter of the King is paid by the republican state. Everybody knows the Family have enough money to live and organize their banquets and feasts. There is no need that the taxlayers money should be given to these persons.

 

[Cris M]

Don't you ever get tired of this pathetic and nonsensical campaign against the Crown Princess? In the beginning, it was just laughable. Now it's tiresome and tedious.

You should find a hobby.

 

[LadyRohan]

The politicians will have to explain why in a republic the daughter of the King is paid by the republican state. Everybody knows the Family have enough money to live and organize their banquets and feasts. There is no need that the taxlayers money should be given to these persons.

It's just sad to see supporters of the monarchy call members of a Royal Family 'these persons', and speak in terms that only ardent republicans, and very ungenerous people do.
It should not need to be pointed out, again, that this law is about setting out representations and functions, not organize 'banquets and feasts', and that every Royal Family, many former Royal Families and many branches of Royal Houses are paid or compensated for their work.

There is no other candidate carrying the torch of monarchy in Romania, and as has been said in this thread many, many times, this is how monarchy is funded, and it's a very generous thing for the state to do, when the monarchy isn't restored yet.

 

[Cory]

I am interested in the restoration of Monarchy. I forgot that critisizing the regime and its friends is not welcomed in certain backgrounds.
The torch of Monarchy in Romania is certainly not carried by an ex candidate at the presidential office and by his wife.

 

[Cris M]

The torch of Monarchy in Romania is certainly not carried by an ex candidate at the presidential office and by his wife.

Says who? Any sources?

 

[LadyRohan]

I am interested in the restoration of Monarchy. I forgot that critisizing the regime and its friends is not welcomed in certain backgrounds.
The torch of Monarchy in Romania is certainly not carried by an ex candidate at the presidential office and by his wife.

Yet again you reveal that you are on a campaign to trash Prince Radu, and because of his choice years ago, his wife as well, even though she is a royal Princess by blood who has done nothing but work for the cause of monarchy, and support her father since her return to Romania.

You can criticize all you want, but as many have pointed out, it's just sad to see the endless campaigning against a person and an institution based on personal taste.
It's contrary to the very concept of monarchy, where one doesn't base the system of government on opinion polls and popularity, but on the continuity and stability of people raised to serve.

 

[Cory]

I do not have a campaign against anybody. I arrived at a very different conclusion in the last year: all the changes made in the last 9 years were strongly supported by the eldest daughter of the King. She is a very intelligent person and I doubt somebody else could have influenced her in such a way to accept something against her own will. She believes in what she does and even if many monarchists do not share her ideas she continues on her way. She knows the restoration of Monarchy is not easy and she prefers a status quo with the republic. It's her choice that probably does not continue her father's ideas but guarantees her a financial stability and a public visibility.

 

[MAfan]

Do they really have all that money? I've always understood that King Michael and family have been relatively poor during their exile; now it's true that they got back some estates, but keeping them costs money and - on the contrary - I'm not sure about how much incomess do they grant to the King.

 

[Cory]

Do they really have all that money? I've always understood that King Michael and family have been relatively poor during their exile; now it's true that they got back some estates, but keeping them costs money and - on the contrary - I'm not sure about how much incomess do they grant to the King.

Until now for years they paid their staff and they organized big events and they travelled a lot. They are not poor at all.

 

[MAfan]

But for doing this they had (and still have) one source of income, which is the pension paid by the State to King Michael as a former Head of State (in which quality he also gets several other benefits).

 

[Cory]

But for doing this they had (and still have) one source of income, which is the pension paid by the State to King Michael as a former Head of State (in which quality he also gets several other benefits).

What about the lands/ forests,other properties?

 

[LadyRohan]

Until now for years they paid their staff and they organized big events and they travelled a lot. They are not poor at all.

It's irrelevant what funds they have when it comes to public representation. That's a task performed, and funds provided to ensure it's taken care of in a regal and dignified manner.
That's the cost of any monarchy, and it gives a much better return than any republic ever has.

 

[MAfan]

What about the lands/ forests,other properties?

As I said in my previous post, I don't know if and how much income lands and forests generate. And however the upkeeping of the castles owned by the Royal Family surely must be quite expensive. In addition, there was the recent request by King Michael to be from paying taxes For these reasons I'm wondering if, after all, they are so much rich - in terms of cash - as you described them.
But since the financial accounts of the Royal Family are not public, I don't think we cannot know its exact financial situation.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

What about the lands/ forests,other properties?

The lands and properties owned by the former royal family are not exactly Belgravia in London or the Bois de Boulogne in Paris, money-making properties. To my uunderstanding it are forests, moorlands and agricultural ground. It helps that the costs of staffing in Romania is waaaaay lower than in Northern-Europe but I can not imagine it makes the family rich. They can keep a standard. When King Michael passes away, his fortune has to be divided by his widow and their five children. It will fragment and melt away as snow for the sun. Margarita can not refuse the generous offer, I think.

 

[MAfan]

When King Michael passes away, his fortune has to be divided by his widow and their five children. It will fragment and melt away as snow for the sun. Margarita can not refuse the generous offer, I think.

This is also a good point to keep in mind (and to which I have never thought before); and with the death of the King also the incomes from his pension will end.