Restoration of the Monarchy in Romania

[Duc_et_Pair]

Can you give insight in "many people" ? How many? Twenty? One hundred?

 

[Cory]

Looking at the reactions in the press, blogs, Facebook many people indeed. But she does not need support anymore from the royalists because she is supported now by the republic. And the question of a future restoration of Monarchy has certainly nothing to do with her anymore.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

What will be your attitude when suddenly Karina de Roumanie-Medforth Mills engages with the Erbprinz von Hohenzollern? Is it then okay that the new princely couple enjoys financial, organisatoric and facilitary support from the State of Romania, or not?

 

[maria-olivia]

Cory ,Are Press,blogs and Facebook your sources ?
I was there 2 Weeks and spoke with a lot of Romanian people .
They all said it is too early for that !

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Too early for what? Restoration?

 

[Cory]

What will be your attitude when suddenly Karina de Roumanie-Medforth Mills engages with the Erbprinz von Hohenzollern? Is it then okay that the new princely couple enjoys financial, organisatoric and facilitary support from the State of Romania, or not?

The Royal Family can't be subordinated to the republican authorities and the Royal House can't be like an association paid by the republican regime.

Too early for what? Restoration?

It is certainly too early for a restoration of Monarchy.

Cory ,Are Press,blogs and Facebook your sources ?
I was there 2 Weeks and spoke with a lot of Romanian people .
They all said it is too early for that !

I spoke with many Romanians in the last few days about this "project" wanted by Elisabeta Palace and the majority were not only dissapointed but even scandalized by it.

 

[maria-olivia]

Duke , too early for a Restauration of the Monarchy!

 

[Cory]

But finally the royalist understood to whom they can count for a restoration campaign.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The Royal Family can't be subordinated to the republican authorities and the Royal House can't be like an association paid by the republican regime.

I have difficulties understanding you. The Spanish, Belgian or Dutch Kings are totally under control by their Government. Every hiccup must be covered by ministerial responsability. They are given a Budget which has been approved by an elected Parliament, their expenditures are assessed by an auditory office which reports to the Government. Their housing, their security, their transportation, their Household organization, their communucations department, everything is paid for or provided by the State.

Now the State of Romania thinks about a similar regulation, not because they have to do, but because of goodwill towards the former royal family. And then this is suddenly a problem because it is a "republican Government"? There is no any indication that Romanians want a monarchy. This is reality and it is -I have already said it- most generous indeed by the State of Romania because they do not need to be so forthcoming towards the former royal family.

 

[Cory]

You can't compare a REIGNING Royal House in a European CONSTITUTION MONARCHY with the King's Family in Romania that will become like an associatoon subordinated to the republican regime.

 

[LadyRohan]

I spoke with many Romanians in the last few days about this "project" wanted by Elisabeta Palace and the majority were not only dissapointed but even scandalized by it.

It is not a ''project'', it's a project. Just because you don't like it, does not make it legitimate.
To claim that you have spoken to many Romanians that have scandalized it, is as factually interesting as if I say I have recently done a survey among friends, family and others in Romania, and they ALL support this action from the government and the Royal House. How do I prove any basis for what I just said, and how interesting is such an unvalidated opinion?

If I, who believe a specific way and will influence those around me with my opinions through debates and discussions, ask my friends a specific question, most likely I will get majority support for my view. We influence those we talk to, and we tend to filter out those who disagree with us.
Just like you tend to filter out any critical question or feedback, Cory.
Just sayin'.

The arrangements planned between the government and the Royal House is an important step in a process of recognition in Romania. Romania is a republic today, but with a history as a monarchy and a Royal Family that wants to be part of the future of its country, it is both wise and expedient to find a functioning arrangement for the days to come.
Yes, you can spin that as the republic controlling the monarchy, making sure it can't be restored. If that's your view, go ahead, nobody can stop you.

Your argument can, however, be debunked, and just like Duc_et_Pair said, this is something that is quite common in former monarchies. A settlement is made, and in some cases, not in the former empires as much as some of the smaller, former kingdoms, the government and the Royal House finds a way to incorporate the Royal Family into public life, to take advantage of the position a dynasty has or can have in the nation and to make two systems function together.

Try to take comfort in this: This is not the final step in the saga of the Romanian monarchy. Just as this solution wasn't on the radar screens a few years ago, we don't know what will happen a few years from now. If the Royal Family plays its cards right, if the Romanian people get to know them more, appreciate them more, see them more out and about, doing specific tasks and roles, they might warm even more to the idea of the monarchy and ask for a restoration altogether at some stage.

If they do, your goal is achieved, as is mine, and Romania is a monarchy again.
If they don't, at least the Royal Family has a practical function in Romanian social and civic life, they are given a raison d'être closer to the role that noble families should have and they don't have to live in an existence where they do not know whether they are coming or going from one day to another.

I think it is very unfair to ask the dynasty to pass on a chance to mean something to the Romanian people, and to have more purpose in life, just so they can sit around and whine about not getting the ultimate restoration handed to them. This way they can go out and earn it, if that's what is to be down the line. If now, they get the next best thing, a meaningful life, closer to the goal than they have ever been since the abolition of the monarchy.

 

[LadyRohan]

The Royal Family can't be subordinated to the republican authorities and the Royal House can't be like an association paid by the republican regime.

This is just meaningless, in all fairness. The Serbian and Montenegrin Royal Families are paid for by the republican regimes. The German dynasties in various former duchies, kingdoms and countries are often receiving stipends and allowances from their republican, political counterparts, to do specific tasks or fill certain roles, even if their lands are not monarchies today.
The current monarchies across Europe get their money allotments from politicians, many of whom are republicans, but this is neither here, nor there. The most important point is, how do you drive the Royal Family forward to a meaningful place, and how do you preserve the goodwill of people and the stature of the Royal House?
The only way to do that with any meaning at all in a republic, is in conjunction with politicians. If you find a working solution that doesn't detract from the Royal Family or destabilize the country politically, there is nothing wrong with that. It doesn't ruin the greater cause, of one day wanting the monarchy restored.

You have to be realistic though. Just to sit around and whine, and hope that you get to final jeopardy without going through loops and hoops along the say seems about as productive to me as if I said I'm going to sit at home every day for the rest of my life, waiting for a specific, Australian actor to walk through my door and make my life awesome.
It probably won't happen that way, hence why I have to go to Hollywood myself, and find him.

Achieving a goal is a process. You have to actually take the steps to get there in the end. For the monarchy, this is one of them, and I actually agree with Duc, it's a fairly generous one as well.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Amen to that and we may again stress the remarkable goodwill and generosity by the State of Romania to be willing to provide financial, organisatoric and facilitary support to the former royal family. They have no any need to do so.

They could have ignored them from A to Z, like the Greek or the Italians did. It shows that Romania is a state which wants to settle things in an orderly manner, with respect for the historic and cultural importance of their former royal family.

Mind you, Romania, one the poorest states in Europe, they really have other priorities than supporting a former royal family. No matter I disapprove the michaelist changes in the succession, the way Romania treat their former royal family is civilized and dignified.

 

[Cory]

Romania is not a poor country at all even if there are many issues with corruption.
With this compromise the King's Family puts an end to any future chances to reign and loses the support of many royalists. From now on this family does not represent a symbol but only a sad story.

 

[maria-olivia]

Romania IS a poor Country.
In my Hôtel I gave 5 euros to my homemaid when I arrived , she was really So surprised and happy and I had very good work during my stay
All is so sheep and old people are really poor, I saw it during 14 days.

 

[LadyRohan]

Romania is not a poor country at all even if there are many issues with corruption.
With this compromise the King's Family puts an end to any future chances to reign and loses the support of many royalists. From now on this family does not represent a symbol but only a sad story.

The family of the King is known as the Royal Family, in Romania, as in every other monarchy or former monarchy in the world. No amount of inventing new terms or words will change that.
The royalists you claim will drop supporting the Royal Family and the cause of the monarchy because the Royal Family and the government are finding a working arrangement that benefits both, and in the end the people of Romania, are narrow-minded fools who would cut off their nose to spite their faces.
With that kind of attitude from those who claim to support a specific cause, you will never reach your goal. Without the will to compromise, to live in the actual words and find workable solutions on your way to an ultimate goal, you will never get anywhere.

Luckily, the Royal Family is far smarter than some people who claim to support the goal they are reaching for, and so they are taking clever steps on a ladder I hope leads to systemic change someday. But to continue to think that Romania will simply change from republic to monarchy one day because the Royal Family has sat in a castle and championed a cause for X amount of years, but not done anything practical for it, is beyond ignorant.

It will never happen that way, and if we exclude the ways of a revolution, this is the best way forward, and does not in any way hinder a monarchical restoration.

The ones representing 'a sad story' in this case are the ones who tout the path of obstruction and isolation, complaint and withdrawal, and it just reminds me of kids who sit down in anger because they don't get their will.

It's not how you achieve change, and it will never yield results.


The 10 Most Poverty Ridden Countries In Europe - TheRichest
http://www.richestlifestyle.com/poorest-countries-in-europe/
http://www.techscio.com/the-poorest-country-in-europe/
On a sidenote, yes, Romania is one of the poorest countries in Europe. This is a factual thing that can easily be looked up, and doesn't really need to be debated in a restoration thread.
Being poor does not mean the country isn't beautiful, full of possibilities and wonderful people - It is all of those, but in terms of finances and resources, the country is, unfortunately, poor.
I'm slightly impressed that 3 of the countries with tough financial circumstances are or have found financial and practical solutions to integrate their Royal Families into their political systems, Romania, Montenegro and Serbia. If and when one of them decides to take the next step and restore the monarchy altogether, the others will follow suit. That's just one of the reasons why this solution for the Romanian RF is a good one.

 

[CSENYC]

So the Royal Family will get its palaces, recurring payments from the government, presumably official royal titles back and presumably rights for descendants to inherit this arrangement, all with no real obligations.

I want that job. It seems better than actually reigning, doesn't it?

How different is it compared to the arrangements for the King of Sweden and the Emperor of Japan; they don't really do much of anything with day-to-day government, do they?

 

[Cory]

So the Royal Family will get its palaces, recurring payments from the government, presumably official royal titles back and presumably rights for descendants to inherit this arrangement, all with no real obligations.

I want that job. It seems better than actually reigning, doesn't it?

How different is it compared to the arrangements for the King of Sweden and the Emperor of Japan; they don't really do much of anything with day-to-day government, do they?

They have all this but the law explicitly says there will be no change of the form of government. So the republic wins.

The family of the King is known as the Royal Family, in Romania, as in every other monarchy or former monarchy in the world. No amount of inventing new terms or words will change that.

In no country the descendants with no dynastic right are called Royal Family but only King's Family.

Romania IS a poor Country.
In my Hôtel I gave 5 euros to my homemaid when I arrived , she was really So surprised and happy and I had very good work during my stay
All is so sheep and old people are really poor, I saw it during 14 days.

The country has a lot of richness but also a lot of corruption.

 

[LadyRohan]

In no country the descendants with no dynastic right are called Royal Family but only King's Family.

So the Serbian Royal Family is non-existent, but Crown Prince Alexander is 'the King's son'? Crown Prince Nikola of Montenegro is not head of the Montenegrin Royal Family, but his 'grandfathers grandson'?

What do you draw these claims of yours from? Can you please put any facts behind your claim?

 

[Cory]

All the descendants of a King that DO NOT HAVE DYNASTIC RIGHTS can't be considered a Royal Family but only the King's Family. The descendants of King Mihai want probably a republican recognition but according to the royalist Constitutions they have no dynastic rights at all.

 

[LadyRohan]

That is not how a Royal Family is defined, and this is where you are wrong in your claim. Princess Astrid of Norway is a member of the Norwegian Royal Family, but has no dynastic rights or succession right.
All the siblings of Princess Beatrix of the Netherlands are Princesses, without dynastic rights and no succession rights. They are nonetheless members of the Dutch Royal Family.

The head of a Royal House makes necessary changes to ensure the continuation of the dynasty when need be, and that the King, when he had 5 daughters and no sons, decided it was time to abolish salic law, under which no European monarchy acts exclusively anymore, is no surprise, nor is it illegal. The Kingdom of the Netherlands did the same when they had nothing but female heirs for generations, and to claim that a family is not a Royal Family because they're women, born royal Princesses to a Romanian King and Queen, formerly a French Princess, is just ridiculous, and part of your campaign to attack the Royal Family in every way and at every junction.

The fact that the Romanian government is about to recognize the Royal dynasty, its structure, titles etc., is more than one can actually reasonably expect from a republican government, and still they are doing just that. I guess that is behind this intensified campaign from a few people who do not see that the work they're doing is harming the cause they claim to support.

 

[CSENYC]

The fact that the Romanian government is about to recognize the Royal dynasty, its structure, titles etc., is more than one can actually reasonably expect from a republican government, and still they are doing just that.

I agree. Romania already has a head of state. There's no justifiable reason to have 2 (or at least to pay 2, and pay the expenses of 2, and give titles to 2), except out of goodwill towards the Royal Family. Royalists should jump at the chance for this.

 

[LadyRohan]

Despite being a slightly American way of putting it, you're a bit right and a little bit 'off' Romania does have a head of state, but the last monarch, the King, is still alive and was, in an almost universally accepted view, dethroned and removed illegally, and the republic was not legitimately introduced to the country. When that is done, it is more apt to say that this process is a way to right a wrong, and to rectify as far as they can, without altering the governance of the country, what was done back then.
It isn't therefore something Romania does out of the goodness of their hearts, but a many-faceted act, and the health of the King and his age, the work done by the Crown Princess and the other active members of the Royal Family, the growing standing of the Royal Family in Romania etc. are all factors that contribute to what the government is choosing to do.

If the Royal Family wasn't content with the process, they would obviously not accept it, so clearly they are, and the ones grumbling and adding acid, would be doing the same no matter what was done in this situation. I am personally thrilled that Romania will join the ranks of Montenegro and Serbia, and embrace their history, their institutions and that the profile of the monarchy is lifted.
It will not be the final chapter in the story of Romania and the monarchy, most likely it's more of a beginning of a process, but even if it's not, it's a good thing for the Royal Family and for the country, who gets dedicated servants working for them as royalty does in monarchies around the world.

 

[Cory]

Returning to the subject of this thread which is the restoration of Monarchy it is important to notice the main toyalist Association is now the Movement for Kingdom and Crown and it seems this Association has now a dialogue with some of the royalist Clubs.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The monarchy will not be restored. You yourself have admitted that there is no desire in Romania to change the form of state. The former King is old and very frail. The former Queen is old and frail as well. The successor according the michaelist line has no offspring and is a big question mark after herself. The successor according the constitutional line is a German Fürst. Really, this generous show of goodwill by Romania is a rare opportunity and when Princess Margarita is wise, she will seize the momentum with both hands.

It is also possible that the "Custodian of the Crown" will declare the contitutional succession in force because Karina Medforth Mills and Elisabeth Biarneix probably do not desire any role. What will you say when suddenly the Hohenzollerns are the one to pick the fruits from this arrangement? Yes, I feel the Fürst von Hohenzollern should become the head of the House of Romania, but practice is different. When I was Princess Margarita, I would do the same. It is a fair settlement. The Greeks and the Savoias and the Habsburgers would have wished the same offer!

 

[CSENYC]

Despite being a slightly American way of putting it, you're a bit right and a little bit 'off' ..

You're exactly right. My point is that looking at this situation from an efficiency, cost, etc. perspective, it makes no sense whatsoever to already have a President and then add a King without power, but just another burden on taxpayers. That's why the Royal Family should jump at this: it's simply a gracious act by the government. It's only fair to do it, but there's no practical reason to do it.

I agree that this is not the last of the monarchy. Didn't Serbia rehabilitate its Royal Family, and support for the monarchy there has grown significantly? Or does the Romanian government know that the Custodian of the Crown and Prince Radu don't have children, so this will all be done once they're gone?

 

[Cory]

The interest of the very contested political class in Bucharest to close the chapter of the restoration of Monarchy and strenghten the republic.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I think that is a legitimate desire, backed by an overwhelming majority of the electorate, which has no hunger to swap the current republican form of state for a hereditary monarchy. What else are you expecting?

The State of Romania could have done nothing, towards the former royal family. Why should they? The old King and his spouse are in Switzerland. Almost all members of the former royal family do not live in Romania. The so-called "Custodian of the Crown" is a private family matter which could be ignored. The State of Romania however seems goodwilled and wants a proper and civil arrangement between the Republic and the former royal family. I applaud them for doing so.

 

[Cory]

Applauding the republican authorities for closing the chapter of the restoration of Monarchy?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Come on. What else do you expect? Romania is a republic. That is the situation. You yourself admitted on this very board that there is no desire in Romania to swap the republic for a hereditary monarchy.

The State of Romania, while not at all obliged to do, wants to make a civil and prudent agreement with the former royal family. Like so many other states have done. Open up your eyes, it is 2016. The monarchy will never be restored.