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  #1061  
Old 06-26-2016, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by CSENYC View Post
How do "republican authorities control the descendants of the King in order to be sure Monarchy will never be restored"?

The government gives the Royal Family money and can take away that money if the Royal Family agitates for a restoration. But we're not at that point yet; there is no near-term prospect of a restoration because the Romanian people do not want it. If the Romanian people decide that they want a restoration and the government takes away the Royal Family's funds, then the Royal Family can just pay for its own existence, just like I do for myself and billions of people around the world do. Further, if the Royal Family became popular and the government cut off its funding, then surely that would generate sympathy for the Royal Family and only help the prospects of a restoration.

How is "what's going on now...in contradiction...with the Constitution"? If the bill is unconstitutional, wouldn't a court stop the law?

And currently there is no near-term prospect of restoration. There is no long-term prospect of restoration, either, particularly as Margareta and Radu are the only members of the Royal Family who even bother living in Romania. Why focus on the harm that the new law could do when restoration isn't going to happen without the law, either?
The politicians act in a very, very supportive way of the Royal Family, and they get scolded for it.
The politicians ignore the Royal Family and they get scolded for it.

Talk about burning your light in both ends.

Cory is referring to the defunct constitution of 1923, that will never be restored and that he is reading as literal as some read the Holy Book. The trouble and the marked difference from the latter, is that a defunct constitution is universally accepted as having gone when it's abolished. No constitution has ever been restored, replacing a new one, without significant changes, because it would be out of place and out of date in many areas.
Denying female succession would be one of the areas.

CSENYC is correct, restoration isn't on the current agenda (although more royals than the Crown Princessly couple live in Romania, like Princess Maria), but the most important thing right now, is to ensure progress for the family and the institution they represent, while at the same time making sure that what they do and agree to, does not in any way hinder the ideals and goals of the Royal Family, the ultimate one being restoring the monarchy.

The Royal Family made clear last year they're in Romania to serve, in whatever way people want them to. That's code for, 'we're ready for the monarchy to be restored, at your request'. If they want to earn that trust and privilege, this arrangement being offered, is a very, very, very good start.
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  #1062  
Old 06-26-2016, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSENYC View Post
How do "republican authorities control the descendants of the King in order to be sure Monarchy will never be restored"?

The government gives the Royal Family money and can take away that money if the Royal Family agitates for a restoration. But we're not at that point yet; there is no near-term prospect of a restoration because the Romanian people do not want it. If the Romanian people decide that they want a restoration and the government takes away the Royal Family's funds, then the Royal Family can just pay for its own existence, just like I do for myself and billions of people around the world do. Further, if the Royal Family became popular and the government cut off its funding, then surely that would generate sympathy for the Royal Family and only help the prospects of a restoration.

How is "what's going on now...in contradiction...with the Constitution"? If the bill is unconstitutional, wouldn't a court stop the law?

And currently there is no near-term prospect of restoration. There is no long-term prospect of restoration, either, particularly as Margareta and Radu are the only members of the Royal Family who even bother living in Romania. Why focus on the harm that the new law could do when restoration isn't going to happen without the law, either?
The new project of law at section 5 article 2 says the this law does not bring to any change of the Constitution regarding the form of government. I seriously doubt the couple that leads now the King's Family has ever believed in the restoration of Monarchy in the country but now they agree to go against the 30% of the population that asks for the return of Monarchy and the changes in the Constitution to make this possibility happen.This detail of the new project of law shows that the ultimate goal for this Family is not the restoration of Monarchy but the preserve of a republican status quo in change of an official role in the republic with extra finances and the palace to be used. All that the King and the royalists built for 26 years is now put aside. No wonder of the reaction of many people not only monarchists. Before commenting about this please read the new project of law section 5 article 2:

http://www.sgg.ro/legislativ/docs/20...tbm8vdz2jk.pdf
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  #1063  
Old 06-26-2016, 03:07 PM
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You make an assumption that Princess Margareta does not want to restore the monarchy, despite her saying the opposite as late as in several interviews before Christmas last year.
Do you base that on any facts, or do you claim to know she lies based on clairvoyance?
You say the Crown Princess and Prince Radu go against everyone who support the monarchy by making a formalized agreement on representing more, receiving, travelling and doing more for Romania in return for housing, infrastructure and allocated funds. In what way does that differ from what a Royal Family does? In what way does it differ from Montenegro and Serbia?
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  #1064  
Old 06-26-2016, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by CSENYC View Post
Cory, based on your posts, it sounds like the Royal Family doesn't care about restoration. I doubt that, but if it's true, then in order to have a restoration, Romania will need a different Royal Family. It also sounds like the royalists who want a restoration want nothing to do with this new official status for the Royal Family.

If that's the case, then there is zero chance of a monarchy being restored: a Royal Family that doesn't push for it, a need for a brand-new royal family and royalists who don't really want what the Royal Family is accepting. What you have is a complete mess, if the goal is restoration.

I think that the new arrangement should be treated as a restoration, although the King's powers will be more the power of influence rather than official powers in government, and people should be satisfied with it for now. We can have this official status for the Royal Family, with official duties, official titles, an official residence and official pay from the government, and treat the King as an officially-recognized king, but with zero official governmental powers. I'm fine with that; just consider it the 21st century version of monarchy. The Royal Family now has a platform to show Romania what it can do for it, with an official role. That's a good starting point.
I agree that in order to have a restoration of Monarchy there is the need for a Prince outside the King's Family (but from the Hohenzollern House) to be supported by the monarchists.
The new "arrangement" is not a restoration of Monarchy at all but a strenghtening of the republic.
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  #1065  
Old 06-26-2016, 04:45 PM
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While I'm not Romanian, I would think that there is almost zero chance that Romanians would vote for a Hohenzollern (and thus German-speaking) prince to become their monarch. Just why would they?

Does the law prohibit the Royal Family from advocating for a restoration? If so, isn't that an unconstitutional prohibition on freedom of conscience (under EU law or Romanian law)? Or does the law just say that the Constitution isn't changed by the law (which would allow future changes)?

Either way, this new law is the best alternative for now.
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  #1066  
Old 06-26-2016, 05:43 PM
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This project of law is probably quite anticonstotutional but that must be decided by the Constitutional Court at the right moment. The law strenghten the republican regime.
The King's descendants are not seen as Romanians by many Romanians. So...
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  #1067  
Old 06-26-2016, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
I agree that in order to have a restoration of Monarchy there is the need for a Prince outside the King's Family (but from the Hohenzollern House) to be supported by the monarchists.
The new "arrangement" is not a restoration of Monarchy at all but a strenghtening of the republic.
I would like to see the Fürst von Hohenzollern as well because I believe that going the Margareta-Elena-Karina way leads to nothing as the last two are totally invisible and seems not to pursue any role in the Royal House. The problem is that also the Fürst von Hohenzollern, the rightful heir before the michaelist acadabra with the succession, and his son are also not very interested in playing a role in Romania. The only one really and actively promoting a role for the former royal family are Princess Margareta and Radu. They -not even the King- were the ones to keep the royal torch burning. It is thanks to them that the former royal family is not vegetating somewhere in a London suburbia.
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  #1068  
Old 06-26-2016, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by LadyRohan View Post
Just because you disagree with the succession proposed by the King, the politicians clearly accept that times have changed since 1947, and that female heirs of a King is more acceptable than foreign princes who haven't held a title or position legally for a century. I never thought I'd have to say this in a monarchical thread on a monarchical forum, but thank God for politicians who manage to have a wider and more functional view than narrow-minded, self-declared 'supporters'.
All very well said.

Also, it is worth remembering that Cory was for the 2007 Fundamental Laws before he was against them.

He continually referred to the King's heiress as Crown Princess Margarita before he reverted to simply calling her Princess Margarita.

He regularly accorded the title of Prince of Romania to the consort of the Crown Princess before he started alluding to Prince Radu as simply "the husband of Princess Margarita."

Etc., etc., etc.
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  #1069  
Old 06-26-2016, 07:48 PM
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The fact to give a news about the King's Family does not mean to agree with it. Instead of trying to offend me you'd better try to understand Romania.
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  #1070  
Old 06-26-2016, 08:03 PM
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Why don't we let the Romanian legislature define the succession rules for the Royal Family? That's how other European monarchies set those rules. Can't have it both way: a restoration, with the current Royal Family actually governing, but with the Royal Family totally exempt from democratic accountability. Democracy doesn't work that way.

If this Royal Family doesn't have acceptable successors (and German-speaking Hohenzollerns are not going to be acceptable), why not pick Prince Charles, a "real" Royal who actually spends time in Romania? Romania and the UK could be separate monarchies with one King. Sounds far-fetched, but those kinds of things happened in the past, and Prince Charles is a celebrity enough who could maybe get a restoration.
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  #1071  
Old 06-26-2016, 08:08 PM
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A republican Parliament has no right to decide about the dynastic rights. Only in case of the restoration of Monarchy that would be acceptable.
Who tells you the Hohenzollerns won't be acceptable?And by the way acceptable to who?
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  #1072  
Old 06-26-2016, 08:31 PM
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Parliament can set the law for the country, and if it is giving the Royal House official status, it has the right to determine who individually will benefit from that official status, restoration or not.

There is no precedent whatsoever for a citizens of a republican democracy in the 20th or 21st centuries to freely vote to accept, as a monarch, a foreigner who does not even speak the language of the country. Let's get real.

Also, like it or not (and I don't like it), but Romania is a republic, and the republican system is in charge. Denying its legitimacy just makes royalists sound crazy; that serves no practical purpose. Work within the republican system to get a restoration instead of going on and on about how the republican regime is illegitimate.
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  #1073  
Old 06-27-2016, 03:18 AM
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Is Princess Margareta less foreigner than her Hohenzollern cousins?She does not speak a good Romanian after so many years.Probably the Hohenzollerns could lear a better Romanian if they try.
Of course Romania is a republic and now the republic is even stronger with this new project of law. A republic has no tigh and no constititional basis to decide on who is the Head of a Royal House.
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  #1074  
Old 06-27-2016, 03:33 AM
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The Duke of Aosta and his son Prince Aimone served in the Italian armed forces. So did Prince Henri d'Orléans and Prince Georg Friedrich of Prussia. Italia is a republic. France is a republic. Germany is a republic. All have to live on and find a place in the realities of their respective countries. They have to pay taxes to the republican State. They have to obey the laws of the republican State. They themselves use the legislative and juridicary system of the republican State when they have a conflict and start a lawsuit. They make use of the infrastructure, the public services, the security and the protection of the republican State. Still Amedeo di Aosta, Henri d'Orléans and Georg Friedrich von Preussen are very much royalborn Princes and have a role as Chef of their royal dynasties. What else can one expect them to do???

By my understanding the State of Romania has stated nothing about the succession in the Royal House. King Michael is still the former head of state of Romania, is still the Chef of the House. I have not seen a document in which Romania states anything at all about the succession. When the Royal House finds that the Fürst von Hohenzollern is the new head of the House of Romania, then that is nice. It is an affaire particulier, the state seems not to take any position in that. Exactly like the State of Bavaria or the State of Württemberg do not interfere at all in decisions in the House of Wittelsbach or the House of Württemberg.
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  #1075  
Old 06-27-2016, 03:56 AM
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Obviously you did not read the project of law of the republican government of Romania issued few days ago. In the project it is clearly stated that the two Chambers of the Parliament would recognize the Head of the Royal House. I hardly believe the Italian or French Parliament would do so for Prince Louis of Bourbon or for Prince Amedeo of Savoy.
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  #1076  
Old 06-27-2016, 11:17 AM
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The head of the Romanian Royal House they would eventually recognize is their very own former headf of state, isn't it?

French Parliamemt indeed would never do so for a Spanish-born citizen from a Spanish father and a Spanish mother, from a non-dynastical branch of the Spanish royal family which have up all rights on the throne of France 300 years ago and whose claim is a farce.

Italian Parliament indeed would never do so either since the headship of the Royal House of Italy is disputed. The headship of the Royal House of Romania is not disputed. By no one. Here the Romanian Parliament essntially recognizes the headship of the Royal House of the very same person who was indeed their very own King. Twice even.
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  #1077  
Old 06-27-2016, 12:39 PM
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The French and Italian Parliaments would never recognize any Head of the Royal House in their countries for the simple reason thise COUNTRIES ARE REPUBLICS.
The new project of law in Romania does not recognize other Head of State but would recognize the "Head of the Royal House" as a sort of leader of an institution from the republican establishment.
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  #1078  
Old 06-27-2016, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Cory View Post
Is Princess Margareta less foreigner than her Hohenzollern cousins?She does not speak a good Romanian after so many years.Probably the Hohenzollerns could lear a better Romanian if they try.
Of course Romania is a republic and now the republic is even stronger with this new project of law. A republic has no tigh and no constititional basis to decide on who is the Head of a Royal House.
It seems like some posters live in an alternate universe.

Is Crown Princess Margarita of Romania a Romanian citizen? Yes.
Is the Prince of Hohenzollern a Romanian citizen? No, he's German.

Did Crown Princess Margarita of Romania return to Romania as soon as possible after the fall of Communism? Yes.
Did the Prince of Hohenzollern return to Romania as soon as possible after the fall of the Communists? No, he's never even been to Romania.

Has Crown Princess Margarita of Romania lived in Romania for nearly twenty years? Yes.
Has the Prince of Hohenzollern lived in Romania for nearly twenty years? No, because he would have to visit there first.

Did Crown Princess Margarita of Romania establish a foundation to combat the many societal ills that she was struck by when she came to Romania in the 1990s? Yes.
Did the Prince of Hohenzollern establish a foundation to combat the many societal ills that he was struck by when he came to Romania in the 1990s? Um, no, because he has zero interest in the country or its citizens.

Has Crown Princess Margarita of Romania been personally responsible for raising millions of euros for the amelioration of the conditions of the people of Romania? Yes.
Has the Prince of Hohenzollern been personally responsible for raising millions of euros for the amelioration of the conditions of the people of Romania? Nope.

Etc., etc., etc.
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  #1079  
Old 06-27-2016, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Cory View Post
The French and Italian Parliaments would never recognize any Head of the Royal House in their countries for the simple reason thise COUNTRIES ARE REPUBLICS.
The new project of law in Romania does not recognize other Head of State but would recognize the "Head of the Royal House" as a sort of leader of an institution from the republican establishment.
Romania was only a monarchy from 1881 until 1947. That is 66 years. The exile of former King Michael (1947 until present) is longer than the whole Royal House ever reigned in Romania!

It is a miracle that the Romanian state is so well-willing towards a Royal House which only was a short intermezzo in the long history of their country!
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  #1080  
Old 06-27-2016, 01:34 PM
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It is indeed a good thing all around, except for those select few who object on specific grounds that no longer have relevance or any air of realism about them. The country benefits, as the Royal Family can do a lot of good work as other Royal Families across Europe do, despite not being officially restored as sovereigns and so on. The family benefits, as it formalizes work and the arrangements around them, and allows them a purpose in life. I think it bears repeating, everyone needs a purpose in life, even royals. If they are actually given that through a meaningful role with a support system in place, that is brilliant.
The government benefits as well, of course it does, by not having such an open-end question of the monarchy up in the air, but the point that some seem to forget, is that the government is also walking into this situation with wide open eyes. They know full well that the process may lead to people asking for the monarchy to be fully restored, and the republic disestablished. They accept that risk, knowing it isn't all that large, but cast one look over to Great Britain at this point in time, and ask politicians about risks, big or small. Stuff happens, it may in Romania as well.

This solution does not settle restoration, it isn't meant to. It's meant to formalize the roles of the Royal Family, their historic and present circumstances and provide a role and a function from now on. It can be amended, adjusted, expanded or at some point, if circumstances change, but as for now, it is a good law, for the only ones who have shown any monarchic or royal interest in Romania, the King and his eldest and youngest daughters.

In the end, if you believe that the Royal Family has no validity beyond the King anyway, why does it upset you that this 'family of ordinary citizens' are given these prerogatives at all? Surely in your mind this is just the government throwing away good money on a propaganda scheme to raise their own profiles at the expense of the monarchy.

Funny that the use actual royals to do that then.
Seems a little contrary to me.
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