Restoration of the Monarchy in Romania


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What puts me off in King Michael is not my "archaïc" or "outdated" view as some think. I still prefer a clear and written rule above a Ceaucescu-like dictatorship with unlogic inconsequences.

I can't remember having seen anyone else using the term 'archaic', so I guess that would be for me. I wouldn't mind so much, unless it was lumped together with a very tasteless reference to a bloody and tyrannical dictator, with whom Romania still struggle to come to terms with. It's not a good point of reference for anything, let alone a democratic King who was forced out of his own country at gunpoint, under threat of massacres in his name if he did not obey.

Until 2007 the succession was clear: the Prince of Hohenzollern, and then his son the Hereditary Prince. Period.

The succession of 1923 was clear. It was abolished in 1947. It hasn't been realistic since. It became even less realistic when the-then Fürst of Hohenzollern made it clear that the Romanian throne was a matter for the Romanian Royal Family, and that his family had no interest in it.
It should be evident to everyone, that there is no call in Romania for the import of a German prince from a family who has never claimed the throne, through the old, abolished line of succession.

Then King Michael changes it all: his daughters will succeed him. One of them, Princess Sofia, made an undynastical marriage with a fraud, an imposter. But after het divorce she and her daughter Elisabeth Biarneix came back in grace and favour and are in the new michaelist line of succession. Allez... one will think: why cast the daughter with her mother's wrongdoing?

But then this same principle was not applied to the children of Princess Irina: after their mother's ridiculous removal from the michaelist succession, they lost their position as well....

The adagium that children are not cast with parental sin is applied on Elisabeth but not on her American cousins. How much more inconsequence does one want?

Here's where it starts to get a little iffy for me. I don't think I've seen anyone on these forums defend the King in these decisions, and I certainly haven't myself. For one, I don't believe the sins of the father-principle should apply to anyone, and frankly, unlike several others, yourself included, I do not care much who a Princess marries and/or have a family with. It's interesting gossip for some, clearly, but in my view, some things are private, and as I've said many times before, love is personal and must be available for everyone.
The snobbery that sometimes shines through when disparagingly referring to Prince Radu of Romania as Mr. Duda, 'the son of a left-wing politician', 'the failed presidential candidate' and so forth, is what makes me cringe. It is awfully easy to sit on a forum and ride a high horse with regards to others, but it's for the most part, deplorable, and at it's very best, not conducive to the very concept of restoring a monarchy, where speaking up a family, not dragging them down at every turn, is fairly basic for the very concept of family-oriented rule, like the monarchy inherently is.

Not once have I defended the King when he has made arbitrary, and I quite agree with you, unbecoming and plain odd decisions, in one direction or another, meddling with the line of succession he himself proposed. I for one see the Princesses, all 5 of them, as equal in most manners, but the King has stripped Princess Irina of her title, because of her affairs in the U.S, which, I agree, are unbecoming of someone of royal blood, but that's the thing that many people in the end react to: These women, when raised as part of a Royal Family in exile, with little prospect of coming home when communism was rampant and the government was hostile, went on to create their own lives, became different people than they would had become had they been raised and lived in the land that elevated them. I think to cut them a little slack for being actual people, while still also having titles, a certain heritage and as both Princesses Margareta and Maria have proven, some have an easier time adapting to a new role in Romania after their re-entry than others, is not too much to ask.

The current proposed line of succession is not set in stone. It is a proposal by the King, which I agree with completely, should not be altered and arbitrarily changed at every turn of events, but I am quite sure that once the proposed law of recognition passes parliament and the senate, and the Head of the Royal House is recognized to be Crown Princess Margareta, we will see a stronger focus on the future of the Royal Family, who will return to Romanian to represent, who will come after Margareta and so on.
These things are a process, and even though I completely understand the confusion, or frankly irritation, at parts of the process, I think it is also a factor in lessening the agitation, to know that the King is a very old and frail man at this stage, and that his decisions, seemingly arbitrary and odd, will be made clearer by the Crown Princess in due course.
I do not have the knowledge in me to know who will represent the Royal Family in the 2nd and 3rd line at this point. I know what I think, and perhaps hope, but I think we should allow a little time for the family to come together, see their new role in a restored, semi-monarchical state, where their positions are much clearer than it is now.

Where in normal monarchies a successor van not be removed without a whole legislative procedure, in Romania King Michael just removed his grandson from his michaelist succession, including the stripping off from his titles. No explanation, just a cryptic memo via thirds. Nicolae Ceaucescu would not have done it better, these intrigues!

It is impossible to disagree with you on this point, despite muddying it with imagery that is just not appropriate. The introduction of Nicholas into the formal Royal Family with a title and a place in the proposed line of succession was a great move in 2010. The removal of the same person in 2015, with the murky and confusing messages given by the Royal House, were not.
The Royal Family has steps to take and lessons to learn about communication, but this is where the law coming into effect is a great thing for them. They need a better organization, stronger people around them to do the formalized work needed and make sure that there aren't big gaps in press releases or that they don't undertake tasks, roles or give interviews or statements that they shouldn't. In other words, the Royal House need to professionalize, and through the current proposals, that's what will happen.
I don't know what happened between the King and Nicholas M-M, but the errors were on multiple fronts. If this was a mutual decision, which it seems it was not, the-then Prince Nicholas should had been the one to give a statement himself, explaining his withdrawal from public life and not using his title anymore, so he could more easily start a private life, while the Royal House worked with the government to find a structure for its future organization.
If it was a one-sided decision by the King and his council, it should had been explained clearly, with a given cause, not overly detailed, but a cause people could understand, to avoid speculation and a never-ending debate.

On itself I have an understanding for the Fundamental Rules of 2007, but King Michael is meddling too much with his own rules. It is like the previous Duc d'Orléans becoming on non-speaking terms with his son and therefore seeing his grandson as his Heir. Unacceptable and deadly for royal aspirations, as we have seen with the intrigues around Nicholas Medforth-Mills.

Yup, the meddling isn't a great look, and for practical reasons, it clouds the goals of the Royal Family in a less than constructive way.
However, the term 'deadly for royal aspirations' is interesting here. Most monarchists, and most Royal Families and thereto royalty themselves, realize that what is 'deadly' for royal aspirations more than anything else, is the appearance of intransigence and snobbery. A monarchy in Europe today has to be founded in historical traditions, but must also be willing to adapt to a rapidly changing world and circumstances that do not stand still from one moment to another. A monarchy does not need to be at the forefront of change, but it also cannot lag too far behind, unless it wants to be seen as yes, archaic and outdated, very soon indeed. The biggest risk a monarchy runs, is striking the balance wrong, between elevation, history and grace on the one side, and folksy, common and without allure or uniqueness on the other.

The King made the right decisions allow for female succession, through male-preference primogeniture in his proposed line of succession. If the monarchy is restored in Romania, it won't be on the basis of excluding one of the genders anymore, or by bypassing the Royal Family, when they've publicly stated their wish to be of service to the people.
A monarchy today has to be flexible and willing to adjust, without going too far in losing its luster and grace. That's more than doable, but not with deadlocked positions and an unwillingness to cooperate where possible, and compromise when needed. Fortunately, the Royal House is displaying a willingness to work with both politicians and others in order to achieve their ultimate goal; the return of the monarchy to Romania.
 
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In between all the heated debate I must say Cory raised a valid point. Princess Margareta and Mr Duda have been offered a generous deal by the State of Romania, which they can not refuse in my opinion. At the same time it is all very short-term thinking. When you are a royalist, and isn't monarchy per definition a system of hereditary succession?- then "Elisabeta Palace" should be clear about the future.

Is the "deal" indeed meant to appease and to accomodate and to encapsulate the last Romanian Hohenzollern and will the monarchist ideal end with her? If no, who then will be the torchbearer for the monarchist cause? Karina Medforth-Mills? Elisabeth Biarneix? Or will it be the Fürst von Hohenzollern? Are these three intersted at all in Romania and in it's former Royal House?

I agree with Cory that this remains all foggy and unclear. Depending on how you look to it, the impression is not out of the blue that Princess Margarita and Mr Duda have ensured themselves a good life and the monarchy... ach... "Apres nous la deluge".

The monarchist ideal has nothing to do with Princess Margareta who will probably only promote the deal with the republic to assure she can stay with her husband and sister at Elisabeta Palace and have funds from the state.Her nieces are not even really connected to the country and Mr Medforth Mills was put aside by his own Family.
The monarchist ideal has always been linked with the King and it will be a challenging moment when the King won't be anymore. It is obvious not everybody will support the Hohenzollern Succession but it's hard to know which one of the Hohenzollerns will want to become a Pretender to the Romanian Throne.
 
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There's logic for you; the heir of the King has nothing to do with the 'monarchist ideal', whatever foolishness that is. From where do you draw the wisdom to know that the Crown Princess only is interested in funds and a castle for herself and her husband?
How is it possible to conjure up these claims that the pretender to the throne, when she publicly declares her wish for a restoration of the monarchy, is working to raise its profile, is active in the country, but alas, all that is done because she is not interested in the throne at all?
How can one believe in the institution of monarchy at all, when so much energy is spent trashing those who represent it?
The reason it's hard to know which Hohenzollern would like to be a pretender to the Romanian throne, is that none of them will. There's been no display of interest, no statement of support, no indication at all that they wish to relocate to Romania, contest the claims to the Romanian throne against the Royal Family etc. There's a reason for that: It will never happen.
 
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Sons are placed before daughters by the house law of December 30, 2007.

Fundamental Rules Of The Royal Family Of Romania: The Complete House Statute

In 2007, this was the rule of succession in Great Britain, Spain, Denmark, and Monaco, while the Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden, and Norway followed absolute primogeniture, and Luxembourg and Liechtenstein had male succession only.

Yes, I committed the faux pas of writing equal primogeniture instead of male-preference primogeniture, but either way, both of them allow for female succession, which was the Kings point, and is the point of most, if not close to all, citizens these days, that denying women succession to a throne based on gender is a thing of the past and not a feature one wants to see in a democratic nation any longer. I remain firmly convinced that if one achieved the feat of presenting a referendum to Romanians asking them whether they want the monarchy restored, or the republic kept, with the provision that women were sidelined for men from a distant family line because the constitution in 1923 said so, an overwhelming majority would find the concept ridiculous, and vote for the republic.
 
The Monarchists had their chance to ride the wave of enthusiasm for His Majesty's return from exile 20 years ago and they blew it. They've continued to aid the republicans by their internal squabbles and their sowing of the seeds of division and strife by attacking members of the King's family. The King's family, for its part, made two errors: the Crown Princess' husband declaring that he woud run for President and Nicholas' alleged indiscretions, resulting in his 'retirement' from the scene. Irina's actions didn't help either. If the King's family is successfully brought down by the unholy alliance of the Hohenzollern lobby and the republicans, the chances of any restoration will disappear.
 
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The 1923 Constitution is no longer in effect. Romania's current constitution, which provides for a republic, was validly approved after the end of Communism. Let's stop sounding crazy by claiming that the 1923 version is still applicable.

The 1990 Constitution had no any effect. In 2007 King Michael issuef the Fundamental Rules and until then the succession was exactly like it was for King Michael and his predecessors. You know that very well. Given the circumstances, the former King created his own michaelist line and then meddled with it like I do with my breakfasf: on Monday it is müesli, on Tueasday it are cornflakes and no... wait... I prefer müesli again.

Accepting these whims of Michael is like accepting Emperor Caligula appointing his favourite horse as Senator. Same principle: "Your f*rt smells like perfume, m'lord..."
 
The 1990 Constitution had no any effect. In 2007 King Michael issuef the Fundamental Rules and until then the succession was exactly like it was for King Michael and his predecessors. You know that very well. Given the circumstances, the former King created his own michaelist line and then meddled with it like I do with my breakfasf: on Monday it is müesli, on Tueasday it are cornflakes and no... wait... I prefer müesli again.

Accepting these whims of Michael is like accepting Emperor Caligula appointing his favourite horse as Senator. Same principle: "Your f*rt smells like perfume, m'lord..."

My statement was about the 1923 Constitution and claims that it is the valid one. My statement had nothing to do with the rules of succession that King Michael prepared in 2007.

We need to acknowledge that the Republic of Romania is here, and it's valid.

We also need to give up hopes that the monarchy will be restored exactly as it was. I'm not sure which version "the monarchists" want back: the 1923 version, which descended into dictatorship; the 1938 version, which was a dictatorship; the 1940 version, which was puppetry on top of a dictatorship; or the postwar version, which was also on top of a growing dictatorship. None of those are really ideal.

In my view, it's time to decide what the ideal monarchical setup is, and who should fill it after King Michael and the Crown Princess are gone, and work towards establishing that.

In the meantime, until there is a restoration, we should be happy that Romania is a democratic part of the EU but still has such a wonderful and saintly King Michael and flawless (in my view) Crown Princess. Not every country has such esteemed leaders or good position. Would Romania prefer Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton? Would Romania rather be Ukraine? Would Romania rather be as it was in 1941, with Transylvania gone? I think not. Be satisfied with what you have.
 
Few days before the Royal Funeral in Bycharest, the monarchists of different Associations met at Alba Iulia in order to unite their efforys for the Restoration. The new National Convention for Constitutional Monarchy is now the strongest voice of the monarchists.
 
The leaders of the Monarchists Associations now united in the National Conventional for constitutional Monarchy started this Petition.
 
The leaders of the Monarchists Associations now united in the National Conventional for constitutional Monarchy started this Petition.

And again, luckily the people with actual influence, are making sure the chances of restoration are growing, with real work with politicians and institutions.
 
The momentum which was generated with the death of Queen Anne is ebbing away. A new momentum will come when King Michael will leave our world. A sustainable future role for the former royal family is only possible when they have a coherent plan and a vision for the future. I hope they are working on it indeed.
 
There have been some significant developments in Romania of late. It has been announced that a judicial appeal is being prepared to challenge the legality of the Romanian Republic and have the 1923 Constitution recognised as the last legal (and therefore currently valid) constitution of the state. The authors of this appeal, the National Convention on Constitutional Monarchy, announced their intentions in a letter to HRH Crown Princess Margareta before Easter and have now made the letter public. In it, they ask for her to publicly clarify her position with regard to their move, justifying their request with the claim that it would squash accusations that the leading opponent of any restoration of the monarchy is the Crown Princess herself. What is more, she is asked and to consider restoring to her nephew Nicholas the rank of Prince of Romania, the style of HRH and his place in the line of succession.
Reports (in Romanian) can be found here.

Acțiune juridică fără precedent a monarhiștilor români: 'Nulitatea absolută a republicii' - Stiri pe surse - Cele mai noi stiri
(includes the text of the letter)

Repunerea legală în vigoare a Constituției din 1923

A demonstration is due to be held this Sunday on the 25th anniversary of the King's return to Romania.
 
There have been some significant developments in Romania of late. It has been announced that a judicial appeal is being prepared to challenge the legality of the Romanian Republic and have the 1923 Constitution recognised as the last legal (and therefore currently valid) constitution of the state. The authors of this appeal, the National Convention on Constitutional Monarchy, announced their intentions in a letter to HRH Crown Princess Margareta before Easter and have now made the letter public. In it, they ask for her to publicly clarify her position with regard to their move, justifying their request with the claim that it would squash accusations that the leading opponent of any restoration of the monarchy is the Crown Princess herself. What is more, she is asked and to consider restoring to her nephew Nicholas the rank of Prince of Romania, the style of HRH and his place in the line of succession.
Reports (in Romanian) can be found here.

AcÈ›iune juridică fără precedent a monarhiÈ[emoji769]tilor români: 'Nulitatea absolută a republicii' - Stiri pe surse - Cele mai noi stiri
(includes the text of the letter)

Repunerea legală Ã[emoji768]n vigoare a ConstituÈ›iei din 1923

A demonstration is due to be held this Sunday on the 25th anniversary of the King's return to Romania.



Although I'm sure the Royal family would like a restoration is it likely for CP Margarita to publicly announce it & go against the republican government on whose support her & her family's current position relies? Especially when the political situation in Romania is as volatile as it is at the moment?
 
Although I'm sure the Royal family would like a restoration is it likely for CP Margarita to publicly announce it & go against the republican government on whose support her & her family's current position relies? Especially when the political situation in Romania is as volatile as it is at the moment?

I limited myself to reporting the news in my previous post but my personal opinion is that it's not only quite (=very) presumptuous (especially for a bunch of monarchists) to make such requests to the Crown Princess but also strategically very questionable, given, as you rightly point out, the very volatile political situation in Romania, the Princess' clearly preferred approach of working with institutions rather than challenging their legitimacy and the fact that her Father, His Majesty the King, is still alive. I'd have thought they would better serve the long-term interests of the Royal Family (and the Royal cause) by not seeking any endorsement for their move.

As for the request concerning reinstating Prince Nicholas into the line of succession, they are basically asking her to overturn her Father's amendment to the succession to his face and when he is approaching the end of his days.
 
I limited myself to reporting the news in my previous post but my personal opinion is that it's not only quite (=very) presumptuous (especially for a bunch of monarchists) to make such requests to the Crown Princess but also strategically very questionable, given, as you rightly point out, the very volatile political situation in Romania, the Princess' clearly preferred approach of working with institutions rather than challenging their legitimacy and the fact that her Father, His Majesty the King, is still alive. I'd have thought they would better serve the long-term interests of the Royal Family (and the Royal cause) by not seeking any endorsement for their move.

As for the request concerning reinstating Prince Nicholas into the line of succession, they are basically asking her to overturn her Father's amendment to the succession to his face and when he is approaching the end of his days.



Sorry I didn't mean forcing an opinion out of you (especially since we've both seen the Romanian sub forums blow up ever so often) but apart from her father being alive I highly doubt CPM would even consider changing the succession once again. A succession that according to the old constitution that the monarchists propose to bring back is illegal anyway.
 
Sorry I didn't mean forcing an opinion out of you (especially since we've both seen the Romanian sub forums blow up ever so often) but apart from her father being alive I highly doubt CPM would even consider changing the succession once again. A succession that according to the old constitution that the monarchists propose to bring back is illegal anyway.

No worries - I'd understood that you weren't trying to force an opinion out of me :)

I think once could conceive circumstances in which restoring Nicholas to the succession may happen (if it's proven that he's not the father of the baby and has settled down with a suitable potential consort, for example) but the idea of this pressure group sticking its nose into royal (and potentially state) matters is out of order as well as highly ironic when we remember the legitimist issue, as you say. Let's hope that it all ends well and doesn't turn out to be a stab in the back for the royal cause. If I were the Crown Princess, I'd either ignore it or issue a statement along the lines of "the family is ready to serve in whatever capacity the people want and in compliance with the constitution as defined by the democratic institutions of the state".
 
The request is awkward because they want to have established that the current Constitution is illegal and so the Constitution of the last democratic state of Romania (the kingdom) should be in force. But at the same time they want Margarita to re-instate her nephew Nicholas Medforth-Mills as heir.

This shows a Trumpian lack of depth and preparation. After all: if the Constitution of the kingdom is in force again, Margarita was never a successor to begin with, not to mention the Swiss-born British son of her younger sister Elena. For the rest they "forgot" that King Michael is still alive and is the one in charge, according to the beforementioned Constitution.

Just another vaudeville not doing any good to the monarchist cause.
 
The request is awkward because they want to have established that the current Constitution is illegal and so the Constitution of the last democratic state of Romania (the kingdom) should be in force. But at the same time they want Margarita to re-instate her nephew Nicholas Medforth-Mills as heir.

This shows a Trumpian lack of depth and preparation. After all: if the Constitution of the kingdom is in force again, Margarita was never a successor to begin with, not to mention the Swiss-born British son of her younger sister Elena. For the rest they "forgot" that King Michael is still alive and is the one in charge, according to the beforementioned Constitution.

Just another vaudeville not doing any good to the monarchist cause.
Absolutely!
As the saying goes, with friends like these who needs enemies?
 
SONDAY: Do you agree with a referendum on monarchy?

I have proposed this question in the context of the fact that several public figures, some non-politically involved, but also various organizations or parties, put the question of the transition to another form of government - the Constitutional monarchy, with a high level of international representation, Of the non-party balance - this move is to be done through a referendum. But for this, the view is that a national debate should be organized.

Also, over the last decades, the president has become a subject of vehement appeal, the last two heads of state were accused of politicizing the office, and criminal investigations are being carried out against former presidents. In fact, it can be said that for many Romanians, the president is no longer a benchmark of credibility, nor a balance factor, a context in which the historical institution of the monarchy begins to be remembered more and more.

Please note that the survey has proposed a 96-hour vote, with a sample limited to 1,000 votes. No special operations, it was a simple poll, one IP vote. The survey was distributed in neutral groups as well as in groups with options, the broadcasting being equal in number of groups, but unequal as members of the groups - there are fewer monarchs than Republicans.

Despite this, the survey provided a surprising result. Thus, after reaching the 1000-scale scale (in about 3 days), the survey showed the following figures.

- "Yes, we should hold a referendum on the transition to the monarchy", voted 742 people - 74.2% - for "No, we should remain a republic - the president must be elected", 258 people voted - 25.8 %
At the end of the 96-hour period (4 days), the results were:
- for "Yes, a referendum should be organized for the transition to the monarchy" voted 896 people - 71.6%
- for "No, we should remain a republic - the President must be elected", voted 356 people - 28.4%
The survey reveals an unexpectedly great opening for the idea of ​​organizing a serious debate on the theme of the Monarchy, with the possible follow-up steps - the referendum to change the ruling form. We will return to this analysis, because the implications of such a result deserve more analysis from different points of view. We await your messages and proposals, which we will be discussing along with the results of the survey at a meeting of the Center for Orientation and Forecasting.

https://ro.sputnik.md/politics/20170525/12825412/sondaj-monarhie-romania-rezultate.html
 
I feel that the political instability is a rare opportunity to restore monarchy throughout Europe, don't you think this is a golden chance not to be wasted? If you are all in agreement, then I suggest doing anything you can, prayer, protest, formal legal appeal, now is the old guards time I think; what do you think? Romania, Albania, Montenegro, Russia, even Brazil, all have a real chance to restore their Rightful Sovereign Monarchs! This could truly be a Renaissance for monarchy, and I must say, if anyone deserves to be restored to a throne it is His Majesty Michael I of Romania, I pray he lives to see the day.
 
I do not think that the problems that cause political instability in some countries will be solved by re-instating a monarchy.
 
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I think in countries like Albania, Romania, Serbia, Greece, Montenegro, Russia, Brazil and Portugal would work. In some of these countries there are great monarchist movements. It's wait and see.
 
Young people even don't know them. ( I went 2 weeks in Romania)
We saw what happens already in Bulgaria.
 
Young people even don't know them. ( I went 2 weeks in Romania)
We saw what happens already in Bulgaria.

I think that's a very non-nuanced view of 'young people' in Romania and their knowledge of the Royal Family. I could counter that with 'my friends all know of the Royal Family, and in particular, the King, the CP and Nicholas' (which happens to be true), but it doesn't really serve much function to make those statements.
Instead, I think it would be fair to say that most youngsters in most countries don't really give a toss about who is on their throne, or who is their president. When young, you're usually more occupied living life and finding yourself, that who governs, who used to or who might in the future.
 
I feel that the political instability is a rare opportunity to restore monarchy throughout Europe, don't you think this is a golden chance not to be wasted? If you are all in agreement, then I suggest doing anything you can, prayer, protest, formal legal appeal, now is the old guards time I think; what do you think? Romania, Albania, Montenegro, Russia, even Brazil, all have a real chance to restore their Rightful Sovereign Monarchs! This could truly be a Renaissance for monarchy, and I must say, if anyone deserves to be restored to a throne it is His Majesty Michael I of Romania, I pray he lives to see the day.

The current situation in Romania politically is a challenge, and when it comes to modern, Western monarchies, their basis of survival is political neutrality and abstaining from participating in controversial processes. I highly doubt a resurrected and successful Romanian monarchy should or could be born through active interference in political processes and being seen as trying to capitalize on political foolishness and mayhem.
Romanian politics is interesting, to say the least, but the monarchy is above that fray. That is the strength of the whole system of governance. It's vital for its legitimate and democratic resurrection that the Royal Family is seen to go about the process in the right way, get people on board and build consensus in the country, before trying to ride the momentum that will naturally build to make a change that will last.

From the last years good work in Romania, and the patient ways of the Crown Princess and those around her to ensure lasting results, I am fairly confident the monarchy will return. Hopefully, sooner than later :)
 
Whats up in Romania Right Now?

So is it still just roughly 21% of the population in favor or restoration or has the percentage gone up or down at all lately?

-Frozen Royalist
 
Unsubstantiated claims have been removed.
 
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