The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Non-Reigning Houses > The Royal Family of Romania

Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #781  
Old 10-30-2015, 06:08 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kingdom, Heard and McDonald Islands
Posts: 4,061
The rights to the Throne of this Family really ends with the King.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #782  
Old 10-30-2015, 09:05 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Christmas Island
Posts: 5,925
Yes, but of course King Michael's daughters are born Princesses of Romania and Princesses of the House Hohenzollern. This branch of the Hohenzollerns, named "Romania" will end with them. As there seem no successors, most likely this will at the same time mean the end of the Royal House of Romania.

Like in fact the Osman dynasty, former rulers of the Ottoman Empire, make no claim on the Ottoman (Turkish) throne. Like the Hohenzollerns seems not to make a claim on the Romanian throne, at present. Probably King Michael has understood that his dynasty will die out with him and that his grandson Nicholas better has to earn his own living and pursue an own career than chasing dreams (and he is right with that).
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #783  
Old 10-30-2015, 11:38 AM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
The rights to the Throne of this Family really ends with the King.
Reality calling: there is no throne, so there are no "rights".

If the Romanian people decide to create a throne, they'll decide who will sit on it. End of.
Reply With Quote
  #784  
Old 10-30-2015, 03:57 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kingdom, Heard and McDonald Islands
Posts: 4,061
There are the dynastic rights. There can't be any debate about the Restoration until the people will not know who will be the future Pretender.
Reply With Quote
  #785  
Old 10-30-2015, 05:06 PM
Benjamin's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: San Francisco, United States
Posts: 1,515
In the event that there are dynastic rights, one of the Hohenzollerns still needs to convert to Orthodoxy to assume Headship of the Royal House, correct?
__________________
Sii forte.
Reply With Quote
  #786  
Old 10-30-2015, 05:28 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
There are the dynastic rights. There can't be any debate about the Restoration until the people will not know who will be the future Pretender.
There are two routes: establish the pretender (but who or what establishes the pretender?) and make it a choice about that person as monarch vs a republic (by definition impossible to know who will be a future president) or make it a choice between two systems and then, if a monarchy is selected, let the people freely choose their sovereign.

With route 1, you risk the supporters of other factions voting against a monarchy if they feel the chosen candidate is somehow unworthy or not 'legitimate' (in the legal sense rather than concerning the marital status of his/her parents). With route 2, you have to campaign on a more abstract level and risk opponents exploiting the in-fighting between monarchist factions.

If King Michael, the pretender today - according to both the 1923 Constitution and his own house rules - were restored while still alive, with an updated constitution approved by the Romanians to establish the succession rules, maybe peace could reign....maybe. However, this is clearly not going to happen.
Reply With Quote
  #787  
Old 10-30-2015, 05:33 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kingdom, Heard and McDonald Islands
Posts: 4,061
It is a beautiful dream but I doubt the King will be restored on his Throne.
Reply With Quote
  #788  
Old 10-30-2015, 05:35 PM
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
It is a beautiful dream but I doubt the King will be restored on his Throne.
On that, at least, we share the same sad conclusion.
Reply With Quote
  #789  
Old 10-30-2015, 08:49 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kingdom, Heard and McDonald Islands
Posts: 4,061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin View Post
In the event that there are dynastic rights, one of the Hohenzollerns still needs to convert to Orthodoxy to assume Headship of the Royal House, correct?
Nobody will ask them to do so in nowadays Romania.
Reply With Quote
  #790  
Old 10-30-2015, 08:57 PM
Benjamin's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: San Francisco, United States
Posts: 1,515
Cory, I sincerely appreciate a great deal of your contributions to the forums dedicated to the Royal House of Romania, as you have a lot of knowledge in many areas.

However, sometimes your biases, which we all have, get in the way of the factual nature of your posts.

Under the 1923 Constitution, the successors to the throne, should the main line die out, are the Hohenzollerns...and, under the same constitution, the successors need to be Orthodox. One must accept all of the conditions, or none at all.
__________________
Sii forte.
Reply With Quote
  #791  
Old 10-30-2015, 09:28 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kingdom, Heard and McDonald Islands
Posts: 4,061
In nowadays Romania there is no official national state but only 18 denominations equally recognized by the state. It is impossible to ask anybody by law to belong to a certain denomination. In case of the Restoration the religious affiliation of the Royal Family won't be a matter for the Constitution.
Reply With Quote
  #792  
Old 10-30-2015, 09:47 PM
LadyRohan's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Sweden, Slovenia
Posts: 395
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
Nobody will ask them to do so in nowadays Romania.
So in this regard, you choose to ignore article 77 in the Romanian constitution of 1923, where it clearly states that the King shall belong to the Eastern Orthodox religion. That is very inconsistent of you, when you are not allowing for any other arguments to be made against other parts of this long-dead constitution to be updated to modern times.

If the constitution is read carefully and the wording of article 78 viewed in the proper light, it also clearly stipulates that in the absence of direct male-line heirs, brothers of the monarch etc, the King may indicate his successor. With the clear statement in 2009 from the head of the Hohenzollern family, that he was not interested in the Romanian throne, that should be all that is needed to move on to the next step, the King indicating a successor.

When the King did just that in the document signed by his own hand, asking the Romanian parliament to update the line of succession in accordance with modern-day practices, and allowing for female succession, he acted within the constitution he swore to uphold. Ergo, his actions have been above board and according to practice and the spirit of the law at all times.

Whether or not that indication he gave, is followed when a restoration is considered, is another matter, but one cannot fault the King at any step in this process.
__________________
"He who has never failed to reach perfection, has a right to be the harshest critic" - Queen Elizabeth II
Reply With Quote
  #793  
Old 10-30-2015, 10:01 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kingdom, Heard and McDonald Islands
Posts: 4,061
Just try to read carefully the text of the Constitution of 1923 where it is clearly stated that if the King does not have a direct male successor the Throne passes to the brothers of Carol I and their descendants and only if those do not accept the Crown there could be a proposal of another Royal House excluding the female descendants of the Sovereign. So after King Mihai the dynastic rights will pass to the Hohenzollerns and not to the female descendants of the nowadays King. The fact the Sovereign made a proposal in 2007 does not mean that proposal was in line with the Constitution of 1923.

Regarding the religious affiliation it would be contrary to all the Romanian laws today to force somebody to belong to any of the 18 denominations of the country.
Reply With Quote
  #794  
Old 10-30-2015, 10:51 PM
LadyRohan's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Sweden, Slovenia
Posts: 395
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
Regarding the religious affiliation it would be contrary to all the Romanian laws today to force somebody to belong to any of the 18 denominations of the country.
As it would be contrary to Romanian, EU, European and Western monarchical presedence in 2015 to exclude from a line of succession, daughters of a King, but not sons. No country will revive a monarchy in the West and uphold gender discrimination, and why anyone here supports it, continues to elude me.

I suppose a monarch should be free to believe what he wants, as long as he doesn't produce girls only. Chilling sentiment.
__________________
"He who has never failed to reach perfection, has a right to be the harshest critic" - Queen Elizabeth II
Reply With Quote
  #795  
Old 10-30-2015, 11:52 PM
Benjamin's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: San Francisco, United States
Posts: 1,515
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyRohan View Post
I suppose a monarch should be free to believe what he wants, as long as he doesn't produce girls only. Chilling sentiment.
That seems to be the line of thinking for those who suddenly have a new found fervor for the Princely Hohenzollerns.
__________________
Sii forte.
Reply With Quote
  #796  
Old 10-31-2015, 05:19 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Christmas Island
Posts: 5,925
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyRohan View Post
As it would be contrary to Romanian, EU, European and Western monarchical presedence in 2015 to exclude from a line of succession, daughters of a King, but not sons. No country will revive a monarchy in the West and uphold gender discrimination, and why anyone here supports it, continues to elude me.

I suppose a monarch should be free to believe what he wants, as long as he doesn't produce girls only. Chilling sentiment.
You seem not understand that when a Royal House is defunct their only justification is that very Constitution on which their whole existence as a royal family is based. It is really not that difficult and you make a drama out of nothing. In all countries with an aristocracy -except Spain which has a different system- the titles are inherited via male inheritance. This was the case with all monarchies. In many reigning monarchies the Constitution has been changed to gender-neutrality and the succession has been adapted to it. This was a legislative and democratic decision by the nation's Parliament.

In Romania there is no such Constitution and there is no Parliament which can enforce such changes. When you accept that King Michael can change everything to his own personal daily whims, then you have to accept it too when Princess Margareta decides in her own personal and daily whim that her sister Irina Walker formerly Kreuger, her nephew Michael Kreuger, her cousin Kohen Kreuger, her niece Angelica Knight née Kreuger, her cousins Courtney Knight and Diana Knight are all back in line of succession and can call themselves "Prince (Princess) of Romania".

Why not? The only legal arrangement has been thrown overboard. The pages of that legal arrangement have been used to wipe King Michael's own royal derrière with. The only "rule" seems to be the daily whim of the person who seems to consider him- or herself as the Head of the former Royal House of Romania...

That is what differs you from me. You say: there is no monarchy anymore and the former King has to adapt. I say: there is no monarchy anymore. Anyone who claims a position on ground of that former monarchy has to claim it according the rules which were in force when that monarchy was still reigning. My position gives clarity for anyone involved. Your position is as secure as the next fart of the former King or his pretended successor.

The Hohenzollerns who were cut-off in the "michaelist" line of succession are there for 1000 years and they have followed their House Laws. It is not for nothing that the Chefs of both lines of the House of Hohenzollern (Prince Georg Friedrich for the Protestant line and Prince Karl for the Catholic line) married a partner which is standesgemäß according the regulations of their House. It is not for nothing that Prince Gustav zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg has not married his longtime partner Carina Axelsson since she is not standesgemäß according to the regulations of his House and such an union might affect the inheritance of the immense family fortune. They know that -as members of formerly reigning dynasties- they are nothing else than what they are on base of this very same legal document which was in force when they were still a reigning family. Any unilateral change simply changes it to a piece of toilet paper.

Prince Emmanuele Filiberto di Savoia has this position because his father is the son of Italy's last King. His father, and not his father's elder sister Princess Maria Pia, who can claim to be Head of the House because -hey, we are in 2015-. Because that was the legal situation. The Italian monarchy is no more. So the legal situation has been frozen in 1946. When Prince Emmanuele Filiberto decides today that his two daughters will be successors and that his eldest daughter is the future Heir, what will happen when he remarries in a couple of years and get a son? Will he change it again to be sure that the old succession rules will apply again, because now it would befit him and his son? No, if you want to be a monarchy, stick to the rules of the game. When the rules can be changed to any fart, there is no game anymore. It is as simple as that.
Reply With Quote
  #797  
Old 10-31-2015, 10:58 AM
eya eya is online now
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: -, Greece
Posts: 5,462
In Romania there is no monarchy anymore but there is a royal family. King Mihai should ensure the continuity of the family. If Hohenzollerns as I read here clearly stated that it does not care about the Romanian throne then the Κing had recreating the line of succession based on his family. Mainstream has changed many times, but I want to believe that he could not do otherwise. Right now the only thing to be done is to ensure the continuity of the family. Why is the restoration of the monarchy perhaps even a little late.
Reply With Quote
  #798  
Old 10-31-2015, 11:28 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kingdom, Heard and McDonald Islands
Posts: 4,061
The support for the restoration is almost 30% but there is no real support for the descendants of the King.
The Hohenzollerns have never signed any Statement giving up their dynastic rights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyRohan View Post
Support for the Royal Family is reflected in the opinion polls regarding restoring the monarchy, as they are the symbol of the monarchy in Romania. Until there is a question asked of people whether they support a continuation of the monarchy under the Royal Family, or by asking a Prince of Hohenzollern to create a new line, there is no basis to dismiss support for the Royal Family.
It is not really like this: not everybody is in favour of Monarchy is in favour of the descendants of the King. The Sovereign has a public support of around 50% while less than 30% support the Monarchy.

It is obvious there will be a new Constitution when the Monarchy is restored. The idea of forcing somebody to change religious affiliation to get a certain position in the society is not accepted at all and anyway the royalists want a future King but the majority of them do not care if he is Catholic or not.
Reply With Quote
  #799  
Old 10-31-2015, 01:55 PM
LadyRohan's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Sweden, Slovenia
Posts: 395
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
The support for the restoration is almost 30% but there is no real support for the descendants of the King.
The Hohenzollerns have never signed any Statement giving up their dynastic rights.
Support for the Royal Family is reflected in the opinion polls regarding restoring the monarchy, as they are the symbol of the monarchy in Romania. Until there is a question asked of people whether they support a continuation of the monarchy under the Royal Family, or by asking a Prince of Hohenzollern to create a new line, there is no basis to dismiss support for the Royal Family.
__________________
"He who has never failed to reach perfection, has a right to be the harshest critic" - Queen Elizabeth II
Reply With Quote
  #800  
Old 10-31-2015, 04:40 PM
Benjamin's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: San Francisco, United States
Posts: 1,515
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
Regarding the religious affiliation it would be contrary to all the Romanian laws today to force somebody to belong to any of the 18 denominations of the country.
If a Royal Family is supposed to be a reflection of the country over which they reign, then it would be important for the Romanian Royal House to remain Orthodox, as they are required to do under the 1923 Constitution.

Over eighty percent of Romanians belong to the Romanian Orthodox Church.

The only suitable candidate for royalist Romanians who desire a monarchical future for their nation is Prince Nicholas (né Medforth-Mills), the only son of Princess Helen.
__________________

__________________
Sii forte.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Monarchy and Restoration; Rival Families and Claimants aj00192557 The Imperial Family of Russia 955 08-03-2015 03:49 PM
Is the Morocco Monarchy in Trouble? tenngirl Royal Family of Morocco 33 04-26-2011 08:17 AM




Popular Tags
ascot 2016 best gown best gown september 2016 best hat best outfit catherine middleton style coup d'etat crown prince haakon crown princess mary crown princess mary fashion crown princess mette-marit current events duchess of cambridge e-mail farah diba fashion and style fashion poll grand duke jean greece infanta elena jewels kate middleton king abdullah ii king felipe king felipe vi king willem-alexander member introduction monarchy new zealand nobel gala norway november 2016 october 2016 opening of parliament picture of the week power prince bernhard prince charles princess marie princess mary princess mary daytime fashion princess mary fashion princess mary hats princess mette-marit's dresses queen letizia queen letizia casual outfits queen letizia daytime fashion queen letizia fashion queen letizia style queen mathilde queen mathildes outfits queen maxima queen maxima casual wear queen maxima daytime fashion queen maxima fashion queen maxima hats queen maxima style queen rania royal fashion september 2016 state visit state visit to denmark succession sweden the duchess of cambridge the duchess of cambridge casual wear the duchess of cambridge daytime fashion the duchess of cambridge fashion the duchess of cambridge hats the duchess of cornwall eveningwear


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:19 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2016
Jelsoft Enterprises