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  #641  
Old 08-14-2015, 08:27 PM
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The Romanians are hardly impoverished after the restitution.

Their exile has simply made them extremely frugal.
Oh yes they have. It is a mystery to me why you attribute big wealth to King Michael. What they have is what the Romanian Government has returned (Savarsin, Peles, etc.) but all these cost more money than bringing revenues. At various royal forums and in newsgroups nog more than 10-12 million has been attributed. Mainly in properties. Not in cash. This amount will be divided by five, so it will fragment when King Michael dies.
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  #642  
Old 08-15-2015, 02:11 AM
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The romanian press has written about the wealth of king Michael during the last days:
King Michael's wealth is estimated to around 60 million euros. King Michael has four castles, 20,000 hectares of forest, several properties in the capital and in the mountains.
Cu ce avere rămâne principele Nicolae după ce i-a...
Translation

Here is an article about the wealth of the royal family from 2005
Averea Casei Regale a Romaniei
Translation
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  #643  
Old 08-15-2015, 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Oh yes they have. It is a mystery to me why you attribute big wealth to King Michael. What they have is what the Romanian Government has returned (Savarsin, Peles, etc.) but all these cost more money than bringing revenues. At various royal forums and in newsgroups nog more than 10-12 million has been attributed. Mainly in properties. Not in cash. This amount will be divided by five, so it will fragment when King Michael dies.
Is there a law that states he has to split the wealth by five? Most royal families leave the castles, etc to the heir. Sometimes they also get all or most of the land. Irina is living in a triple wide trailer and doesn't seem to benefit presently from being from a multi-million dollar family. I don't see her getting a fifth, nor do I get the feeling does she or her kids. In cases where it was split, who do you sell your castle in Romania to exactly so as to split the money? Ileana of Romania's family can't seem to find a buyer for Dracula's castle and they have been trying for 9 years. In the meantime you are stuck selling tickets to tourists to cover the costs. Ileana's family breaks even on it but it is not making them rich.
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  #644  
Old 08-15-2015, 02:42 AM
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The same press which says who are on the richest lists and give a hoot about facts? It is almost all in domains and estates which are not liquid. King Michael can not go to the shop and buy something with a doorknob from Savarsin (which is essentially a large countryside mansion) or with a sculpture from Peles Castle (which has a museal destination and is partly in use by the State of Romania. Really, King Michael 60 million? It would make him far richer than the King of Spain or the King of the Belgians. Yeah, sure... ��
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  #645  
Old 08-15-2015, 02:49 AM
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Is there a law that states he has to split the wealth by five? Most royal families leave the castles, etc to the heir. Sometimes they also get all or most of the land. Irina is living in a triple wide trailer and doesn't seem to benefit presently from being from a multi-million dollar family. I don't see her getting a fifth, nor do I get the feeling does she or her kids. In cases where it was split, who do you sell your castle in Romania to exactly so as to split the money? Ileana of Romania's family can't seem to find a buyer for Dracula's castle and they have been trying for 9 years. In the meantime you are stuck selling tickets to tourists to cover the costs. Ileana's family breaks even on it but it is not making them rich.
Yes, in almost all countries on the Continent children have an equal share on an estate. That is why the two extramarital daughters of Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands shared equally with their four royal halfsisters. That is why Yazmin and Alexandre will share equally with Jacques and Gabriella de Monaco. That is why the Habsburg and Bourbon-Parma wealth has become totally fragmented thanks to their very fruitful marriages. The British system of attributing the bulk of an estate to the eldest male heir is illegal in almost all other European countries.
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  #646  
Old 08-15-2015, 03:09 AM
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It will still be a stake in castles and land they can't find a buyer for like Ileana's family. Can you even borrow against it? So not really rich.
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  #647  
Old 08-15-2015, 03:26 AM
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The only way to save the assumed wealth of King Michael is doing like other royal and noble families have done: donate all the possessions to a non-natural person, which means a legal entity, not subjected to inheritance laws and succession taxes. (For an example Foundations and Trusts).

The positive side of such an act: historic heritage remains together.
The negative side of such an act: the five daughters of King Michael receive nothing.

In the 1960's and 1970's then Queen Juliana of the Netherlands donated the massive collections of the House Orange-Nassau to various foundations, all with the aim to keep everything together and at he disposal of the Bearer of the Crown. Thanks to this Princess Amalia, the daughter of the King and of Queen Máxima, can be sure to have all the fantastic jewels, artworks, whatever, in complete state becoming at her disposal when she assumes the kingship. No fear for fragmentation. For this wise decision however, then Queen Juliana had to "rob" her four daughters from a considerable private wealth. (She was rich enough to set up a special Trust to provide in personal income for her three youngest daughters anyway).

In the Romanian case: why set up a Trust? Why not sell everything for the benefit of Margareta, Elena, Irina, Sofia and Maria? Keeping a historic collection together only has a meaning when the family is attached to it and wants to keep it for generations to come. The question is: are the named ladies indeed attached to the patrimonium of their family and their House or do not they give a damn' about it? For myself I see Irina preferring to sell the royal jewels for hard bucks. She will not care less about a diadem here or a necklace there.
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  #648  
Old 08-15-2015, 03:39 AM
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Originally Posted by LadyFinn View Post
The romanian press has written about the wealth of king Michael during the last days:
King Michael's wealth is estimated to around 60 million euros. King Michael has four castles, 20,000 hectares of forest, several properties in the capital and in the mountains.
Cu ce avere rămâne principele Nicolae după ce i-a...
Translation

Here is an article about the wealth of the royal family from 2005
Averea Casei Regale a Romaniei
Translation
Well if this is indeed true then maybe the "poor" Romanian family does not need the "rich" Hohenzollern to "save" them
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  #649  
Old 08-15-2015, 04:36 AM
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It is not true. It is the same press claiming that Queen Elizabeth II is the richest woman in the world, conveniently calculating everything at her disposal to her private wealth. In reality Elizabeth II only owns Sandringham House and Balmoral.

The media looks to Windsor Castle, Buckingham Palace all other royal residences, studded with artworks and thinks: "Wow!!! That must be the richest woman on Earth!!!" and yes they publish it like that and the common man in the street believes it.

Every hint that King Michael is probably worth around 10 million Euro is more accurate than any other estimation. And this 10 million Euro mainly consists of Savarsin House and the domains belonging to it. Peles Castle can not be sold as it is on long lease from the royal family to the State of Romania and houses various national museums. The upkeep of that castle costs a fortune. The ownership of Peles still is not final and probably there will be a clause that the State of Romania has first rights to obtain ownership, meaning King Michael can not throw it on the free market. Niote also that we are speaking about Romania, not anout the overcooked real estate market in London where a little henhouse makes 300.000 Pounds on the absurd market.

The attributed wealth of 60 million Euro is nonsense in my personal observation and not backed. King Michael was still quite young when he took the throne for the second time, and World War II broke out. He had not much chance to gain a large personal fortune and lock it safely away in Switzerland. His father, King Carol of Romania took everything of value away with him, and then he and his spouse Princes Helena of Greece and Denmark squandered it. There was nothing left when she died in 1982.

Since going into exile King Michael worked for a living. The family were not rich. I have read that the education of his five daughters was paid for by wealthy supporters. There may also have been some inheritances from the royal family De Bourbon de Parme (Queen Anne's family). Today of course King Michael has a semi-official position in Romania and has had properties returned, so he is definitely better off but really... no 60 million Euro... in his dreams, yes...
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  #650  
Old 08-15-2015, 04:57 AM
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What can I say such an analysis would not make nor his accountant King Mihai, but I guess that is your personal assessment because the romanian press make other estimates .
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  #651  
Old 08-15-2015, 05:12 AM
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What can I say such an analysis would not make nor his accountant King Mihai, but I guess that is your personal assessment because the romanian press make other estimates .
That is the press. Naming, framing, shaming. The same press which attributed KLM and Royal Dutch/Shell Oil to the ownership of the Orange-Nassaus. Simply not true. Use your own eyes. Look at Savarsin which is really private property. It is just a nice big villa. It was in really poor state. It took years and years for Princess Margarita and her husband Radu to find funds for a much-needed restoration, helped with subsidies from the Romanian ministry of Culture, the Foundation Pro Patrimonio and wealthy supporters the building could be restored. Savarsin before the restoration. Savarsin under restoration. Savarsin in fresh paint, a few weeks ago.
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  #652  
Old 08-15-2015, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post

The attributed wealth of 60 million Euro is nonsense in my personal observation and not backed. King Michael was still quite young when he took the throne for the second time, and World War II broke out. He had not much chance to gain a large personal fortune and lock it safely away in Switzerland. His father, King Carol of Romania took everything of value away with him, and then he and his spouse Princes Helena of Greece and Denmark squandered it. There was nothing left when she died in 1982

Sorry to be nitpicking but it was King Carol and his third wife Magda Lupescu that squandered the royal fortune. Carol and Princess Helen divorced in 1928 and even if she eventually got a civil list payment it didn't make her rich at all. Naturally this annuity stopped after the communist takeover.


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  #653  
Old 08-15-2015, 10:21 AM
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What I don't understand is how well-connected royalty could not be financially successful. I don't mean that royalty should automatically be rich, but anyone as well-connected as the Royal Family of Romania, and with the guts that King Michael showed when he reigned, should have been able to be pretty successful in business.

Look at how well the German Hohenzollerns, King Simeon II of Bulgaria, the Royal Family of Greece, etc. have done in business.

If they couldn't have parlayed their royal connections and influence into a successful business career, at least they could have married into money.

I just do not understand why they didn't or couldn't do either route to wealth.
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  #654  
Old 08-15-2015, 05:22 PM
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I am not aware of King Simeon of Bulgaria or King Constantine of the Hellenes having properties or businesses like the Hohenzollerns, the Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburgs or the Thurn und Taxis.

King Michael married Princess Anne from the House de Bourbon de Parme, until the interbellum counting as one of the richest royal dynasties. But wars and exiles are very destroying for royal fortunes and most likely King Michael never had. His five daughters all married gentlemen who did not - or little - attribute to the wealth of the Romanians. King Michael's Hohenzollern relatives (the Prussian royal branch and the Hohenzollern fürstliche branch) of course also experienced two World Wars, the collapse of the Empire, the exile of the Kaiser and his son. But they were not barred by the Federal Republic of Germany like Michael was barred from Romania until the fall of the Iron Curtain. The answer will be somewhere there.

Possibly there is also a clash of characters. Maybe King Michael simply never went along with his Hohenzollern relatives and did little to maintain warm relationships with the royal and noble Houses of Europe. For an example his cousins Prince Georg Friedrich of Prussia and Prince Karl Friedrich von Hohenzollern but also Grand-Duke Georgy Romanov (who is born a Hohenzollern Prince) all mingle with the who-is-who of the Gotha. The same with King Simeon and King Constantine. In my observation King Michael has withdrawn himself from the royal scene and maybe he is now paying a sort of price for that now.

Anyway, it is clear that stories as King Michael worth 60 million Euro must be taken with firm grains of salt...
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  #655  
Old 08-15-2015, 05:47 PM
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Restoration of the Monarchy in Romania

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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
I am not aware of King Simeon of Bulgaria or King Constantine of the Hellenes having properties or businesses like the Hohenzollerns, the Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburgs or the Thurn und Taxis.



King Michael married Princess Anne from the House de Bourbon de Parme, until the interbellum counting as one of the richest royal dynasties. But wars and exiles are very destroying for royal fortunes and most likely King Michael never had. His five daughters all married gentlemen who did not - or little - attribute to the wealth of the Romanians. King Michael's Hohenzollern relatives (the Prussian royal branch and the Hohenzollern fürstliche branch) of course also experienced two World Wars, the collapse of the Empire, the exile of the Kaiser and his son. But they were not barred by the Federal Republic of Germany like Michael was barred from Romania until the fall of the Iron Curtain. The answer will be somewhere there.



Possibly there is also a clash of characters. Maybe King Michael simply never went along with his Hohenzollern relatives and did little to maintain warm relationships with the royal and noble Houses of Europe. For an example his cousins Prince Georg Friedrich of Prussia and Prince Karl Friedrich von Hohenzollern but also Grand-Duke Georgy Romanov (who is born a Hohenzollern Prince) all mingle with the who-is-who of the Gotha. The same with King Simeon and King Constantine. In my observation King Michael has withdrawn himself from the royal scene and maybe he is now paying a sort of price for that now.



Anyway, it is clear that stories as King Michael worth 60 million Euro must be taken with firm grains of salt...
The stories about how King Michael brought a trainload full of art and valuables with him into exile have always been denied by the family.
Maybe King Ferdinand left King Simeon some of the property he brought with him into exile after his abdication in 1918? I doubt Simeon and the rest of the royal managed to salvage a lot when they were kicked out of Bulgaria with one day's notice in 1946.



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  #656  
Old 08-15-2015, 08:50 PM
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Duc et Pair,

King Simeon II was head of the Spanish subsidiary of Thomson. That's a very successful job. He then was elected prime minister of Bulgaria. So he's been very successful and would be well-known for those two roles alone. He seems like a real go-getter.

The Greek Royal Family is also pretty successful. Prince Pavlos went to Georgetown, married a billionaire's daughter and co-founded some investment management funds (I know that plenty of funds can be just a guy and a computer, but they seem reputable). Prince Nikolaos went to Brown and worked in the financial services industry. I can't tell how far the Princesses in the Greek Royal Family have gone in their careers, but Pavlos and Nikolaos alone seem to have done well.

Being a royal, deposed or not, gives a person way more advantages in life than most of us have--certainly more than I have--due to connections and celebrity status alone. Thus I don't have a lot of sympathy for a royal family that doesn't make the most of those advantages.
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  #657  
Old 08-16-2015, 03:19 AM
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But... working for Thomson or one of the children marrying a billionaire does not make the family wealthy. When the present Fürst von Hohenzollern dies, his son Prince Alexander will inherit the castles, the domains, the art collections, all the valuables, the considerable business activities, the stock portfolios and the investments.

That is not the same as someone having a good position in a company, like King Simeon had. Becoming Prime Minister of a country like Bulgaria is also not exacly something which makes someone rich. I don't think Chancellor Schmidt, Chancellor Kohl or Chancellor Merkel become rich and fortunate because they have lead Europe's financial powerhouse (Germany).

Prince Pavlos marrying a billionaire's daughter does not make the Greek royal family rich. The wealth will remain in the Miller family and not be transferred to the Greek royal family, that is obvious.

The richest royal family in Europe, in terms of private ownership and valuables, most likely is the Fürst von und zu Liechtenstein. A tiny principality but the gentleman owns one of the largest private art collections in the world. The princely family owns LGT Bank (110 billion Swiss Franc on the accounts). The art collections are spread out over Schloss Vaduz (picture), the Kunstmuseum Liechtenstein (picture) and the Palais Liechtenstein in Vienna (picture).
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  #658  
Old 08-16-2015, 05:57 AM
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[QUOTE=CSENYC;1810632]



The Greek Royal Family is also pretty successful. Prince Pavlos went to Georgetown, married a billionaire's daughter and co-founded some investment management funds (I know that plenty of funds can be just a guy and a computer, but they seem reputable). Prince Nikolaos went to Brown and worked in the financial services industry. I can't tell how far the Princesses in the Greek Royal Family have gone in their careers, but Pavlos and Nikolaos alone seem to have done well.[QUOTE]

I do not know about others but Prince Nikolaos for many years working in his father's private office. Now what exactly is involved and how successful are still wondering
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  #659  
Old 08-16-2015, 06:10 AM
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But marrying with Marie-Chantal Miller, which absolutely "helped" the Prince, does on itself not make Pavlos rich. It depends on how the fortune of her parents will be divided. Her two sisters made fantastic marriages as well: with a Getty and with a Fürstenberg, not pauvre either.

In 2007 King Constantine sold 850 lots, mostly family silver, but also exquisite Fabergé ornaments, furniture, jade and paintings. I understood King Constantine left Greece in 1967 with his family and little more than the clothes they were wearing. Successive Greek governments have resisted demands to return royal estates and property to him and it has long been a mystery how he supported himself and his family. It is not known whether he moved money out of Greece in the run-up to the coup and it has been commonly assumed that he has lived off gifts from Greek monarchists and the Danish and British royal families, to whom he is close.

In 2003 King Constantine accepted around 12 million Euro from the Greek government in return for dropping his claims to properties in Greece. He announced that all the money would be used for charitable purposes in his Greece. All by all it does not sound as the Greek royal family has an big wealth. They are not pauvre either, but you know what I mean.
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  #660  
Old 08-16-2015, 06:58 PM
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Any discussion regarding Restoration of Monarchy in Romania is useless at the moment. everything that has been built was cancelled with what happened at the beginning of august 2015.
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