The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Non-Reigning Houses > The Royal Family of Romania

Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #61  
Old 06-28-2016, 09:16 AM
LadyRohan's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Sweden, Slovenia
Posts: 395
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin View Post
A title which the Romanian government then went on to accord Prince Radu and which many self-proclaimed Romanian monarchists, such as yourself, employed when referring to Prince Radu. So...
My guess is that the whole process around the titling of Prince Radu made it clear to the King that if the Royal Family was to be from, of and for Romania, time had come for him as head of the Royal House of Romania to adopt, and distribute when needed, purely Romanian titles. It was a very logical choice, applauded at the time, and it is as right today as it was 9 years ago.
If you're for the monarchy, it is highly irregular and illogical to protest the right of a King to decide on titles. That is the way of any Western monarchy, a decision that was acceptable to those few who today choose to sabotage the cause instead of being loyal and constructive in times of change.
__________________

__________________
"He who has never failed to reach perfection, has a right to be the harshest critic" - Queen Elizabeth II
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 06-28-2016, 03:08 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kingdom, Heard and McDonald Islands
Posts: 4,061
In Romania only dynasts used to have titles before 1947.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 06-28-2016, 03:32 PM
LadyRohan's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Sweden, Slovenia
Posts: 395
In Romania today, only the children of the King and the spouse of the heir, have titles. There's nothing untoward about that, and it is perfectly in line with any existing or abolished monarchy.
__________________
"He who has never failed to reach perfection, has a right to be the harshest critic" - Queen Elizabeth II
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 06-28-2016, 04:06 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kingdom, Heard and McDonald Islands
Posts: 4,061
No person without dynastic rights can get a title from a Romanian King.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 06-28-2016, 04:37 PM
LadyRohan's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Sweden, Slovenia
Posts: 395
The King of the Romanians, like the monarchs of other dynasties, decides who gets titles, and a title is not based on dynastic rights of succession. Is it really necessary to make an endless list of princes and princesses in Europe without dynastic rights, but with legitimate titles or titles in pretense?
__________________
"He who has never failed to reach perfection, has a right to be the harshest critic" - Queen Elizabeth II
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 06-28-2016, 04:59 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kingdom, Heard and McDonald Islands
Posts: 4,061
If the King could give titles (which would be against the Constitutions of the Monarchy in Romania) he should not have asked the Prince of Hohenzollern for one.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 06-28-2016, 05:58 PM
LadyRohan's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Sweden, Slovenia
Posts: 395
He asked the Fürst of Hohenzollern for his son-in-law to be titled as his wife was, because the family was then titular a branch family of the Hohenzollern house, as well as the Royal Family of Romania. Later, when the King decided the right way forward was for the family to be exclusively named and titled 'of Romania', he did not need to ask permission of anyone. He is the head of his house, and can distribute titles as he sees fit.

The former King of the Hellenes is still titular a Prince of Greece and Denmark, bestowed by the Queen of Denmark, as is his entire family. If the family undertook to have the monarchy of Greece restored, it would not be far-fetched to see them relinquish their Danish titles and make sure no one could question their loyalty and dedication to Greece.
Not sure why the same decent logic can't be applied in the case of the Romanian Royal Family.
__________________
"He who has never failed to reach perfection, has a right to be the harshest critic" - Queen Elizabeth II
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 06-28-2016, 06:16 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kingdom, Heard and McDonald Islands
Posts: 4,061
Every country with its own laws. In Romania Kings do not give titles.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 06-28-2016, 07:16 PM
LadyRohan's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Sweden, Slovenia
Posts: 395
On what do you base this view? At no point does the Romanian constitution of 1923 restrict or deny the King the right to defer titles, so what is the basis of your denial of this right of a monarch, and/or the head of a royal house?
__________________
"He who has never failed to reach perfection, has a right to be the harshest critic" - Queen Elizabeth II
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 06-28-2016, 07:24 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kingdom, Heard and McDonald Islands
Posts: 4,061
There were no titles in Romania after 1866. The Princes and Princesses of Romania were born as Princes and Princesses of Hohenzollern. Nobody else had any title. When I speak read first the Constitutions and then I study the history of the country between 1866 and 1947.
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 06-28-2016, 07:40 PM
LadyRohan's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Sweden, Slovenia
Posts: 395
That isn't an entirely correct reading of the history of titles in Romania. Romanian monarchs were, alongside the Belgians, popular monarchs, who were titled 'of the Romanians', as opposed to the more standard 'of Romania'.
An example of the actual titles, i.e that of Prince Nicholas of Romania, who was stripped of the title 'Prince of Romania' by his brother King Carol II. If he didn't have the title, why would he lose it?
The full titles of princes and princesses of Romania would in most cases be 'Prince(ss) of Romania, Prince(ss) of Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen, except in the case of Ferdinand I, who was designated heir to the throne of Romania in 1880, and didn't receive the title 'Crown Prince of Romania' until 1886.
No constitution denies royal titles being used or distributed in Romania during the years of the monarchy, and no part of royal history denies the use of titles.
__________________
"He who has never failed to reach perfection, has a right to be the harshest critic" - Queen Elizabeth II
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 06-28-2016, 09:02 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kingdom, Heard and McDonald Islands
Posts: 4,061
Nobody received any title in Romania between 1866 and 1947. Only the dynasts had titles.
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 06-28-2016, 09:05 PM
LadyRohan's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Sweden, Slovenia
Posts: 395
The meaning of the word 'dynast' is 'a member of a powerful family'. I suppose someone who marries into a Royal Family is then legitimately a dynast.
Do you have some other special definition that you've created to fit this argument?
__________________
"He who has never failed to reach perfection, has a right to be the harshest critic" - Queen Elizabeth II
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 06-28-2016, 09:48 PM
Zonk's Avatar
Administrator
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere in, United States
Posts: 11,328
I am trying to follow this most recent discussion but it is very confusing.

Saying no titles have been issued is a lot different that the King could not issue any titles.

Or am I missing something?
__________________
.

Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 06-29-2016, 03:02 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Christmas Island
Posts: 5,920
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyRohan View Post
The meaning of the word 'dynast' is 'a member of a powerful family'. I suppose someone who marries into a Royal Family is then legitimately a dynast.
Do you have some other special definition that you've created to fit this argument?
In my understanding a dynast is someone holding dynastic rights (read: rights of succession).

Don Jaime de Borbón, Infante of Spain (1908-1975) was an uncle of King Juan Carlos and gave up his rights on the throne in 1933. Therefore his descendants, all born after that date, are no dynasts. Someone who marries into a royal family is no dynast, in my understanding.
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 06-29-2016, 04:02 AM
MAfan's Avatar
Super Moderator
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: N/A, Italy
Posts: 5,536
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
Nobody received any title in Romania between 1866 and 1947. Only the dynasts had titles.
So how should the various titled conferred in Romania to King Michael's mother be justified?
She wasn't a dynast; though, when Carol II renounced his succession rights in 1926 and little Prince Michael became the Heir to the Throne, she was given the title of "Principesă mamă", and later on her title became "Regina mamă".
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 06-29-2016, 04:55 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kingdom, Heard and McDonald Islands
Posts: 4,061
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAfan View Post
So how should the various titled conferred in Romania to King Michael's mother be justified?
She wasn't a dynast; though, when Carol II renounced his succession rights in 1926 and little Prince Michael became the Heir to the Throne, she was given the title of "Principesă mamă", and later on her title became "Regina mamă".
She was the wife of the Crown Prince and the mother of the future King. She was born as Princess and she married a Crown Prince.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zonk View Post
I am trying to follow this most recent discussion but it is very confusing.

Saying no titles have been issued is a lot different that the King could not issue any titles.

Or am I missing something?
The King asked his cousin to give a title because he knew he could not give a title himself.
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 06-29-2016, 05:20 AM
MAfan's Avatar
Super Moderator
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: N/A, Italy
Posts: 5,536
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
She was the wife of the Crown Prince and the mother of the future King. She was born as Princess and she married a Crown Prince.
Yes, I do know all that and it doesn't respond to my question.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 06-29-2016, 07:31 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kingdom, Heard and McDonald Islands
Posts: 4,061
All the wifes (speaking not about morganatic marriages) of Romanian Kings were Queens and all the wifes if the Romanian Princes were Princesses.
Nobody else received any title because the King did not have such a right in the Constitutions of 1866 and 1947.
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 06-29-2016, 08:18 AM
LadyRohan's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Sweden, Slovenia
Posts: 395
This is just a constructed argument to rail against non-equal marriages in principle, and Prince Radu in particular.
The King did not ask for the title Prince of Hohenzollern because he 'knew he couldn't bestow titles'. If he knew that, he wouldn't bestow titles a year later.
It's clear from the process that he realized, probably in agreement with or following the process of the Hohenzollerns, that new titles given to Romanian consorts and partners should be given by the King, and not by a German princely house.

Just because a person was a Princess who married a Prince, doesn't explain why she was then given a Romanian title, but a commoner who marries a Prince or Princess, gets a title as well and it's all of a sudden wrong.
The old, abolished constitutions of Romania do not speak on the issue of titles, it is therefore not restricted and the King is fully within his rights to continue the tradition of giving a title to the partner of his children and heirs. He is also within full dynastic tradition to give titles as part of his royal prerogative, just as Lady Diana Spencer was given a title upon her marriage to the Prince of Wales, just as Sarah Ferguson, Catherine Middleton, Brigitte van Deurs and Katharine Worsley were given titles upon marriage.
Daniel Westling was create a Prince upon marriage. Katherine Batis became Crown Princess Katherine of Serbia upon her marriage to a non-reigning royal, as did Margarita Gómez-Acebo y Cejuela become Tsaritsa Margarita of Bulgaria following her marriage to the non-reigning Tsar of Bulgaria.

We cannot be so unprincipled that there is one rule for the King of the Romanians, because we don't like a royal partner, but accept and allow just about every other title granted.
Further, when the King created his grandson a Prince in 2010, you were one of the supporters. In the case of Prince Radu, you are completely the opposite.
The King either has the right or he doesn't, and if you claim he doesn't, you have to point to where that is enshrined in law or practice. So far, you haven't shown that at all, and royal tradition in Romania shows that partners of heirs and children of monarchs have received titles in full.

When it comes to Duc's point, that may be what Cory means, but it is neither the meaning of the word, nor is it a correct definition by tradition in Romania, as many people not eligible to reign or rule on their own have received titles, such as consorts.
__________________

__________________
"He who has never failed to reach perfection, has a right to be the harshest critic" - Queen Elizabeth II
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Children of King Abdullah & Queen Rania: Part 2 - February 2011 - July 2013 dazzling King Abdullah and Queen Rania and Family 285 07-02-2013 05:02 AM
King Juan Carlos and Queen Sofia's Visit to St Petersburg: February 24-25, 2011 lula King Juan Carlos and Queen Sofia 13 01-04-2013 02:23 AM
King Abdullah and Queen Rania Current Events 33: January 27, 2011 - August 2012 dazzling Current Events Archive 408 09-02-2012 01:28 PM
King Juan Carlos and Queen Sofia, Current Events Part 20: March 2010 - May 2011 Her_Majesty Current Events Archive 493 05-04-2011 03:48 AM
Royal House of Denmark: Official and Unofficial Links GlitteringTiaras Royal House of Denmark 3 10-04-2010 10:51 AM




Popular Tags
ascot 2016 best gown best gown september 2016 best hat best outfit catherine middleton style countess of wessex's eveningwear coup d'etat crown prince haakon crown princess mary crown princess mary fashion crown princess mette-marit current events danish royal family duchess of cambridge e-mail fashion poll grand duke jean greece jean kate middleton king abdullah ii king felipe king felipe vi king willem-alexander member introduction monarchy new zealand nobel gala norway november 2016 october 2016 opening of parliament picture of the week prince bernhard prince charles princess madeleine princess madeleine hats princess marie princess mary princess mary daytime fashion princess mary fashion princess mary hats queen letizia queen letizia casual outfits queen letizia daytime fashion queen letizia fashion queen letizia style queen mathilde queen mathildes fashion queen mathildes outfits queen maxima queen maxima casual wear queen maxima daytime fashion queen maxima fashion queen maxima hats queen maxima style queen rania royal fashion september 2016 spanish queen state visit state visit to denmark succession sweden the duchess of cambridge the duchess of cambridge casual wear the duchess of cambridge daytime fashion the duchess of cambridge fashion the duchess of cambridge hats


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:58 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2016
Jelsoft Enterprises