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  #1621  
Old 09-23-2013, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by CrownPrincess5 View Post
Perhaps and the fact that the cameras are on her. It's obvious she likes fame, I don't know why everyone else tries to avoid the obvious.
I see a great deal of the royals looking at the camera and in some cases the camera loves them right back.

I remember some complaining about the Duchess of Cambridge loving the camera before her engagement to William. I would rather them give the camera a nice loving smile for the camera than to look angry and irritated in the camera.

If I was dating a princess and I saw the camera, l'll make sure to give them a nice friendly smile. I'll try to look my best to look good and handsome as possible in those pictures that will be published across the Internet, magazines and newspapers.
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  #1622  
Old 09-23-2013, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by AristoCat View Post
Maybe people are fed up with princesses with scandalous pasts; Maxima's past isn't her past in the sense that she is the one who has to overcome something that she did. It wasn't her, it was her father. As for the rest of them, in varying degrees they have had to have expensive PR campaigns and it's disconcerting how the public is not just supposed to forgive and forget, but LURVE the princesses as well. Just because the prince loves them. It's not about the public, but about the prince.
Mostly I would say that in their own countries the people generally have been happy that their princes have found a woman they love and want to marry them and have accepted them as members of their national royal families. How these new princes and princesses have been received in the US may be a matter you are better able to speak to.

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Originally Posted by AristoCat View Post
What about the taxpayers of Sweden?

Do they count or do they exist to just pay up and shut up? CP and Sofia will after all be representing them in an official capacity.
I did mention the Government of Sweden and in constitutional monarchies the government speaks for the people, the tabloids do not.

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Originally Posted by ladongas View Post
Aren't repentant sinners worthy of being forgiven? If they get married, and they aren't happy, or if her behavior is shocking the tolerant Swedes, then they can get divorced.
I can only imagine how scandalized some posters would have been had the internet existed in an earlier era at the knowledge that Prince Bertil of Sweden was living with a divorced former model from Wales and later married her and made her HRH Princess of Sweden and royal duchess. Gasp!! There would have been much clutching of pearls and reaching for smelling salts at the realization that time and society was moving on.
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  #1623  
Old 09-23-2013, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by dbarn67 View Post
Millions of women make the choices to purse their education or work in the work-a-day world rather than take their clothes off for money and fame.
What percentage of those women are as physically beautiful and photogenic as Sofia and likely to have have been offered the opportunity? If I had been and someone had offered me lots of money to take my clothes off to the extent she's been photographed with her clothes off, you can bet I'd have done it.

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Originally Posted by CrownPrincess5
It's obvious she likes fame, I don't know why everyone else tries to avoid the obvious.
In my opinion, all that the smiling photos make obvious is that she is a woman who doesn't mind being photographed and chooses to smile at the cameras when she is being photographed. The same could be said about Princess Beatrice of York.
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  #1624  
Old 09-23-2013, 07:38 PM
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What percentage of those women are as physically beautiful and photogenic as Sofia and likely to have have been offered the opportunity? If I had been and someone had offered me lots of money to take my clothes off to the extent she's been photographed with her clothes off, you can bet I'd have done it.



In my opinion, all that the smiling photos make obvious is that she is a woman who doesn't mind being photographed and chooses to smile at the cameras when she is being photographed. The same could be said about Princess Beatrice of York.
A good percentage I would guess. There a lot a women walking around my city many more beautiful than Sofia. I have no way of knowing if they've all been offered the opportunity to pose nude but I'd guess many would not. Because many women have raised to value themselves for more than what is on the outside. I have a friend who is STUNNING and has been offered the opportunity to be a a real model not a nude and she said no. She became one the top students in her law school and went on to become a successful lawyer. I have more stories of women who are commercially gorgeous but have chosen to become successful by the merit of the brains over thei assets of their bodies.

For what it's worth I think CP will marry Sofia, and again, I wish the SRF the best.


I have no comment on your willingness to be a nude model if you had the opportunity.
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  #1625  
Old 09-23-2013, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by dbarn67 View Post
A good percentage I would guess. There a lot a women walking around my city many more beautiful than Sofia. I have no way of knowing if they've all been offered the opportunity to pose nude but I'd guess many would not. Because many women have raised to value themselves for more than what is on the outside. I have a friend who is STUNNING and has been offered the opportunity to be a a real model not a nude and she said no. She became one the top students in her law school and went on to become a successful lawyer.


I have no comment on your willingness to be a nude model if you had the opportunity.
I also knew someone and she would never. And she needed the money, believe me. No comment on the latter part either

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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
I can only imagine how scandalized some posters would have been had the internet existed in an earlier era at the knowledge that Prince Bertil of Sweden was living with a divorced former model from Wales and later married her and made her HRH Princess of Sweden and royal duchess. Gasp!! There would have been much clutching of pearls and reaching for smelling salts at the realization that time and society was moving on.
As far as I know, she did not do nude modeling
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  #1626  
Old 09-23-2013, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Andolini View Post

As far as I know, she did not do nude modeling
But she did scandalous things for her time.

Which was the point.
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  #1627  
Old 09-23-2013, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by HRHHermione View Post
But she did scandalous things for her time.

Which was the point.
I realize that. My point is that nude modeling is still not something I endorse as a person. That is all. I do not and will not find it acceptable. I believe it objectifies women and there is enough of that in society already, in films,ads, tv, movies. If that makes me "an old fogie" so be it, but I happen to think people need to respect women a little bit more than panting over pages of nude pictures, it is disrespectful.
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  #1628  
Old 09-23-2013, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Andolini View Post
As far as I know, she did not do nude modeling
Back then, there were no other ways for women to survive, unless they had either been born wealthy or prominent to be able to live well idly or marry a fellow member of the working class. Lillian did the best she could during her circumstances and time and that is why I'm less judgmental. If a woman didn't have family, sometimes they became showgirls or actresses and lived disreputable lives.

As for Sofia, this is a different era and a different time in which women are able to work at honest work and still be considered completely respectable and more than worthy of a good man and be able to become a princess via marriage, but Sofia chooses to take the easy route and by inference, suggest that a normal job is supposed to be secondary to using sexual salesmanship to get, land, and keep a man until you can sweet talk marriage.
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  #1629  
Old 09-23-2013, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by dbarn67 View Post
A good percentage I would guess. There a lot a women walking around my city many more beautiful than Sofia. I have no way of knowing if they've all been offered the opportunity to pose nude but I'd guess many would not. Because many women have raised to value themselves for more than what is on the outside. I have a friend who is STUNNING and has been offered the opportunity to be a a real model not a nude and she said no. She became one the top students in her law school and went on to become a successful lawyer. I have more stories of women who are commercially gorgeous but have chosen to become successful by the merit of the brains over thei assets of their bodies.

For what it's worth I think CP will marry Sofia, and again, I wish the SRF the best.


I have no comment on your willingness to be a nude model if you had the opportunity.
I REALLY really hate when people present it as an either/or and imply that if you're a woman who enjoys your sexuality and your looks, that you can't be someone who cares about making it for your brain and your inner attributes at the same time. It seems to be how women internalize the madonna/whore complex and I just don't get it.

To them I say: time to spend some time studying Hedy Lamarr, who participated in one of the most scandalous films of her day- and yes, posed nude- and who later patented the technology that helped create stealth missiles.

In fact, I'd say this is a must read for anyone who believes that a woman should be defined for her entire life by the fact that she once posed nude:

Scandals of Classic Hollywood: The Ecstasy of Hedy Lamarr | The Hairpin


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  #1630  
Old 09-23-2013, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Andolini View Post
As far as I know, she did not do nude modeling
True, but in the 40s and 50s many people in Europe considered any modeling to be not quite respectable. Much like stewardess were once thought of as "coffee, tea or me" kind of ladies.
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  #1631  
Old 09-23-2013, 08:45 PM
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I don't know how repentant she really is; if she hadn't dated a prince, I believe she would still be doing stuff like this since this was apparently her preferred method of making a living despite so many other ways out there.
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  #1632  
Old 09-23-2013, 08:58 PM
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Thanks HRHHermione for mentioning Hedy Lemarr, what a remarkable woman and a beauty.
I know a few models very well. They aren't stupid at all and not everyone can model. Just because you are stunning doesn't mean you are photogenic, and just because you are photogenic, doesn't mean you are comfortable in front of a camera and make it look easy and natural. Modeling is a gift and a talent, all gifts should be used to their fullest if possible.
BTW, I think Sophia is neither pretty nor photogenic. I think she always looks goofy in pictures. I was surprised to learn she was a model.
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  #1633  
Old 09-23-2013, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by HRHHermione View Post
I REALLY really hate when people present it as an either/or and imply that if you're a woman who enjoys your sexuality and your looks, that you can't be someone who cares about making it for your brain and your inner attributes at the same time. It seems to be how women internalize the madonna/whore complex and I just don't get it.

To them I say: time to spend some time studying Hedy Lamarr, who participated in one of the most scandalous films of her day- and yes, posed nude- and who later patented the technology that helped create stealth missiles.

In fact, I'd say this is a must read for anyone who believes that a woman should be defined for her entire life by the fact that she once posed nude:

Scandals of Classic Hollywood: The Ecstasy of Hedy Lamarr | The Hairpin


I totally agree!

And thank you so much for that fabulous link to the story about Hedy Lamarr. I've skimmed the first part of it and look forward to enjoying the whole thing later.
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  #1634  
Old 09-23-2013, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by HRHHermione View Post
I REALLY really hate when people present it as an either/or and imply that if you're a woman who enjoys your sexuality and your looks, that you can't be someone who cares about making it for your brain and your inner attributes at the same time. It seems to be how women internalize the madonna/whore complex and I just don't get it.

To them I say: time to spend some time studying Hedy Lamarr, who participated in one of the most scandalous films of her day- and yes, posed nude- and who later patented the technology that helped create stealth missiles.

In fact, I'd say this is a must read for anyone who believes that a woman should be defined for her entire life by the fact that she once posed nude:

Scandals of Classic Hollywood: The Ecstasy of Hedy Lamarr | The Hairpin


Hate?! I don't that word around lightly so this is another comment that I choose not to respond to.


I didn't not say the two were mutually exclusive. What I wrote about were choices. I could care less about Hedy Lamarr with regard to this discussion.
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  #1635  
Old 09-23-2013, 09:24 PM
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Since this discussion is rather circular with nothing new being added perhaps it should be tabled until such time as the couple announce their engagement and the court announces what her style and title will be.
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  #1636  
Old 09-23-2013, 09:27 PM
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Totally agree!
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  #1637  
Old 09-23-2013, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by dbarn67 View Post
Hate?! I don't that word around lightly so this is another comment that I choose not to respond to. I didn't not say the two were mutually exclusive. What I wrote about were choices. I could care less about Hedy Lamarr with regard to this discussion.
I don't typically use the word hate lightly either, but I can agree with what HRHHermione is saying, right down to the word choice. While it may not have been your intention to say, or imply, that there are only two choices, a big issue with the way people seem to see Sofia relies on this idea that there are only two types of women; the virtuous, publicly chaste woman who would never publicly bare her body, and the immoral woman who does. The point is that it's not that simple, and while Sofia may have made choices different from how you or I would have made them in similar circumstances, simply having decided to publicly display her body and sexuality doesn't make her an immoral woman.

Someone said that Sofia could have, and should have, engaged in "honest" work. Many people have said that she needs to admit she's done something wrong. What I question is what is so dishonest about her past work? Is it in any way illegal? Was it harming herself or others? I get the debate about degradation towards women, but I don't agree with the conclusion that women choosing to pose nude is in itself degradation towards women.

Expanding that, what's about her having made out with another woman? I don't agree that Sofia should be condemned because of her past career as it was legal, so likewise I don't agree that Jenna Jameson should be condemned for hers, as it's also legal. Them having made out doesn't scream immoral or wrong to me so much as it says that they view sex and sexuality differently from how I do. They don't have the same attitudes, they may not fit into the confines of the very narrow definitions towards sexuality that most people have.

Personally, I know some very well educated individuals who at glance you would consider to be productive, contributing, and moral members of society, who have in their private, personal lives engaged in relationships (both casual and serious) that most definitely would not fit within the narrow definitions commonly used. Does that mean they're somehow less than you or I? No, sorry. I don't believe so.
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  #1638  
Old 09-23-2013, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Ish View Post

I don't typically use the word hate lightly either, but I can agree with what HRHHermione is saying, right down to the word choice. While it may not have been your intention to say, or imply, that there are only two choices, a big issue with the way people seem to see Sofia relies on this idea that there are only two types of women; the virtuous, publicly chaste woman who would never publicly bare her body, and the immoral woman who does. The point is that it's not that simple, and while Sofia may have made choices different from how you or I would have made them in similar circumstances, simply having decided to publicly display her body and sexuality doesn't make her an immoral woman.

Someone said that Sofia could have, and should have, engaged in "honest" work. Many people have said that she needs to admit she's done something wrong. What I question is what is so dishonest about her past work? Is it in any way illegal? Was it harming herself or others? I get the debate about degradation towards women, but I don't agree with the conclusion that women choosing to pose nude is in itself degradation towards women.

Expanding that, what's about her having made out with another woman? I don't agree that Sofia should be condemned because of her past career as it was legal, so likewise I don't agree that Jenna Jameson should be condemned for hers, as it's also legal. Them having made out doesn't scream immoral or wrong to me so much as it says that they view sex and sexuality differently from how I do. They don't have the same attitudes, they may not fit into the confines of the very narrow definitions towards sexuality that most people have.

Personally, I know some very well educated individuals who at glance you would consider to be productive, contributing, and moral members of society, who have in their private, personal lives engaged in relationships (both casual and serious) that most definitely would not fit within the narrow definitions commonly used. Does that mean they're somehow less than you or I? No, sorry. I don't believe so.
Yes, exactly- that's what I meant and I agree. I know some lovely, intelligent, educated people whose private lives would probably shock many, and yet nothing they do is illegal or hurtful.
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  #1639  
Old 09-23-2013, 10:17 PM
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This quote from the article that HRHHermione posted is, in my opinion, extremely relevant to this discussion:

Quote:
The face obscured the intelligence, the wit, the desire for something more. It became the synecdoche for her image, the whole of self. And it's not like we don't do this to women today: forcefully, if subconsciously mapping a desired vision of who they are and what they represent from a collection of paparazzi shots, publicity photos, and bad interviews. We do it to the girl whose beautiful and by herself at the concert, we do it to the student in our classes with the sorority shirt and bitchface. I do it to Megan Fox and Olivia Wilde and Kim Kardashian; you may do it to your own slew of beautiful, desirable, and thus easily dismissed women.
Emphasis (and any typos) mine.
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  #1640  
Old 09-23-2013, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Josefine View Post
did she use twittter to announce her relationship with the Prince?
Yes, indeed she did. It went like this...

"......Wanna know a secret? I'm dating the Prince!"
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