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  #1541  
Old 09-22-2013, 04:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AristoCat View Post
Good; I understand that point, but come on, why be called narrow minded because someone is disgusted with the lifestyle choices of someone else? Sweden is flush with money, so why would Sofia willingly take that lifestyle she's chosen and why should she be foisted onto the public and have the public and Sweden's courtiers not just tolerate her, but be forced to like her as well? Why should the public pay for her to end up with a solid lifestyle at a royal level just because CP loves her? If she ends up married to him, she'll end up with a title of princess of Sweden and I don't think she's suitable for any role that is officially expected to be recognized on the world stage?

She will have that status; she will be an "HRH," have a passport that enables her to get past normal regulations, be able ot stay in the world's best hotels without worrying about the bills and be entitled to be welcomed by the leading officials of the area she stops off in. Throw in the jewels and couture and to me it's a singular slap in the face to any woman who chose an honest working life rather than vamp it up for men's magazines and end up making out with porn stars. After the usual PR campaign of her being repentant of her life (and all the rest of that usual drivel) the public will be expected to applaud and forgive and forget.
Your entire perspective seems to be that Sofia"s choices make her unworthy of being treated with respect, which is the definition of slut-shaming.

Luckily, Sweden tends to be more progressive than that and is one of the leading countries in the world as for as egalitarian attitudes and gender equality, so I doubt your views will be the views of the majority of the Swedish people
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  #1542  
Old 09-22-2013, 04:32 AM
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I completely agree with Ish's post 1536
Regardless of what you opinion is, that post should be read and understood...
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  #1543  
Old 09-22-2013, 04:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blauerengel View Post
I feel the same,but it seems to be a very common thing for celebrities nowadays...I know there are lots of great people who do admirable work for all sorts of philantropic causes or donate a lot of money but there are some celebrities who are just lending their face & name to the cause for getting good PR.
Of course there are some noteworthy exceptions of famous people who are really involved in the charity they represent, but I still find it awful when a few people believe it is ok to use disadvantaged people for generating positive media feedback. We have an old saying that goes "Do good deeds but don´t talk about it!"
Why can't she do it herself?

She has (surely) no other major demands or requirements on her time.
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  #1544  
Old 09-22-2013, 05:39 AM
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I resent it that people try to disqualify anybody who is critial of Sofia as being a 'slut shamer' or a prude and responsible for teenage suicides. I am not a slut shamer, no prude, no bully and I never drove anybody to commit suicide. It is odd to try to 'win' this debate by using such terms to refer to anybody who does not agree with your point of view. Thus implying that anybody objecting to Sofia is somehow old fashioned and almost committing a (moral) crime. I think that most questions and doubts that people have about her are legitemate. Likewise, I have never called Sofia supporters names or blamed them for all the wrong doings of the world or suicides.

However I don't see how it is slut shaming if people are questioning the motives and suitebility of a lady participating in a sleazy tv show who has not attempted to build up a carreer, who has never made any attempt to get herself educated, who solely relied on her looks to achieve her ultimate goals of fame and attention and who now has reinvented herself as the mother Theresa of Sweden by using another persons charity as a photo opportunity & listing herself as the founder. Unlike others Ia do not see a reformed woman. I see the same woman with the same goals (fame and attention) only with different -and more successful- methods.Even worse is the prince for making such a fool of himself and his parents for allowing it. It shows the bankruptcy and true rediculousness of the monarchy and makes a very good argument to get rid of them.

Of course the prince himself is not much better either. He has a few engagements but apart from that just seems to be holidaying and racing cars. IMO it is much better if junior members of a royal family have to support themselves and build a carreer, as prince Constantijn and the late prince Friso & their wives have been doing.
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  #1545  
Old 09-22-2013, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
...
I haven't labelled SH supporters amoral lovers of sleaze, and I am more than a little fed up with the implication that those of us who don't feel she should be a representative of the SRF are righteous and intolerant.

I am not saying she is evil or bad, I simply don't think she's the best choice for the Royal house. I could be proven wrong, but I don't see any indication that she is not as thrilled with the limelight now as she was when she was doing reality TV and posing naked with handcuffs.
Thank you very much: That's what I also think; let them marry, but let her be a privat person, not a princess (just like Chris - but for other reasons obviously) and don't let her represent Sweden on official duties.

Apart from that: she doesn't work; she doesn't study, she doesn't do anything serious; she does not show a desire that she will become a working member of society, so let her be the starlet she is allready, but not more.
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  #1546  
Old 09-22-2013, 06:30 AM
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Well it is great having a thread to express our opinions about the royals and their lives. But remember no matter how upset we get or righteous our arguments, at the end of the day we don't have a say in these people's lives. BUT it is fun :)
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  #1547  
Old 09-22-2013, 06:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
I resent it that people try to disqualify anybody who is critial of Sofia as being a 'slut shamer' or a prude. I am not a slut shamer and I am no prude. It is un fair to 'win' this debate by using such terms to refer to anybody who does not agree with your point of view. Thus implying that anybody objecting to Sofia is somehow old fashioned and almost committing a (moral) crime.

However I don't see how it is slut shaming if people are questioning the motives and suitableness of a lady participating in a sleazy tv show who has not attempted to build up a carreer, who has never made any attempt to get herself educated, who solely relied on her looks to achieve her ultimate goals of fame and attention and who now has reinvented herself as the mother Theresa of Sweden by using another persons charity as a photo opportunity & listing herself as the founder. Even worse is the prince for making such a fool of himself and his parents for allowing it. It shows the bankruptcy and true rediculousness of the monarchy and makes a very good argument to get rid of them.
I could not agree more. The way she tries to show herself as mother Theresa and a very nice and suitable person for the SRF is disgusting IMO.
I think it would be much much better if she came and admitted to her past mistakes and said that she was wrong by posing nude, participating in Paradise Hotel and making headlines that she has been making out with Jenna Jameson. And now that she has found her love, she is willing to change her lifestyle and dedicate herself to good causes.
Then I guess people will give her another chance to prove herself to be a worthy person and to become prince Carl Philip' wife.
But now I only see her trying so hastily clear her name from her past that she doesn't even know if she is doing the right thing and the right charities.
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  #1548  
Old 09-22-2013, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
Oh God...

On average the Swedish taxpayer is paying $1.82 annually for the monarchy. Half of that is for palace administration, so only 91 cents per person is going towards funding the lives of the Swedish royals. I kind of think that the 91 cents isn't really enough for people to complain nearly as much as they are about Sofia.

Sofia is a woman who rose to fame because she was a model. The nature of her modelling really is irrelevant; she became famous because she was a model. She did a reality TV show because hey, that's what famous people do these days. Yes it was a sleazy one, but most reality TV shows are kind of sleazy. She does not owe anyone an apology for her actions, nor does she have to say that she did anything wrong because, regardless of how you feel about them, adults consenting to have sexually suggestive naked pictures of them taken is not against the law in Sweden. Nor is appearing in sleazy reality TV shows. Sofia may at this point in her life regret those choices she made, or she may not. Given as she is no longer modeling or appearing in reality TV shows I think it's safe to say it's kind of time to move on from her past.

However, people aren't willing to do such. They're hung up on actions that Sofia did at a minimum of three years ago simply because Sofia's actions don't mesh with their personal morals regarding sex, sexuality, and nudity. I'm not saying that the people who oppose Sofia are prudes - that's a sweeping statement - but I am saying that they're condemning her for her behaviour simply because it doesn't match up with their morals. We live in a world where slut shaming exists, and Sofia is being slut shamed. Unfortunately for every royal watcher who hates her, she - along with CP and the SRF - appears to be ignoring the shaming.

What's more is that they're blatantly disregarding any attempt she makes to move on from that. Her charity work is written off not as her actually trying to do charity work but as her trying to make herself look good because she's almost a royal - the fact that many other royal brides didn't necessarily do all that much charity work pre-relationship is considered irrelevant. When she appears at an event she's condemned for smiling at the cameras - if anyone royal smiles at a camera people applaud because they're smiling, but not Sofia. When something happens with her charities people instantly jump to the worst conclusions and condemn her for her actions.

For example, not all that long ago someone found a photo of a group of South African girls from Sofia's charity Project Playground. The girls were set to appear on a South African TV show and the costumes were revealing. Instantly Sofia was slandered as trying to expose young girls - who themselves were already at risk of rape - to sex and reality tv. This was regardless of the fact that
  1. If you look at Project Playground's website you'll see that they're already well aware of the likelihood that the children they work with, regardless of gender, are at risk of being raped,
  2. No where on the website did it say that Sofia had any part in deciding that the girls would be involved in the show, selecting which girls would appear on the show, or selecting the costume itself
  3. A search of the internet indicates that at minimum the costume selected is a cultural dress, and that attitudes towards female nudity are different in South Africa
  4. The show itself was a religious, educational, children's show aimed at improving morality in South Africa.
This shows that people don't actually care what Sofia does. They've made up their minds about her and regardless of how much she tries to move forward and change her life, people are too hung up on the fact that she's comfortable enough with her body to appear nude.


Really, if you think about it, the attitudes towards Sofia are no different than the way that teenage bullys treat girls who so often end up committing suicide. I have to say that HRHHermione is right; Sofia is an amazing role model for these types of girls because she's showing that you don't have to be ashamed of your body, you don't have to be ashamed of your sexuality, and you can rise above and ignore the relentless comments of petty people.
One of the best, thoughtful and honest posts I ever read on this thread.
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I'm a firm supporter of fair chance's.
Use your chance, Sofia. You're doing a fine job so far.
  #1549  
Old 09-22-2013, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
I resent it that people try to disqualify anybody who is critial of Sofia as being a 'slut shamer' or a prude and responsible for teenage suicides. I am not a slut shamer, no prude, no bully and I never drove anybody to commit suicide. It is odd to try to 'win' this debate by using such terms to refer to anybody who does not agree with your point of view. Thus implying that anybody objecting to Sofia is somehow old fashioned and almost committing a (moral) crime. I think that most questions and doubts that people have about her are legitemate. Likewise, I have never called Sofia supporters names or blamed them for all the wrong doings of the world or suicides.

However I don't see how it is slut shaming if people are questioning the motives and suitebility of a lady participating in a sleazy tv show who has not attempted to build up a carreer, who has never made any attempt to get herself educated, who solely relied on her looks to achieve her ultimate goals of fame and attention and who now has reinvented herself as the mother Theresa of Sweden by using another persons charity as a photo opportunity & listing herself as the founder. Unlike others Ia do not see a reformed woman. I see the same woman with the same goals (fame and attention) only with different -and more successful- methods.Even worse is the prince for making such a fool of himself and his parents for allowing it. It shows the bankruptcy and true rediculousness of the monarchy and makes a very good argument to get rid of them.

Of course the prince himself is not much better either. He has a few engagements but apart from that just seems to be holidaying and racing cars. IMO it is much better if junior members of a royal family have to suppot themselves and build a carreer, as prince Constantijn and the late prince Friso & their wives have been doing.
Seriously this post just keep me from quitting the forums altogether. People want to go around and whatever they feel like and exploit and make a fool of themselves but as soon as you question the motives. ..your a slut shammer! Your responsible for suicide! Get real. She made her bed now she has to lie in it. BTW when all this falls apart I guarantee she will spin for everything it's worth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eden View Post
Well it is great having a thread to express our opinions about the royals and their lives. But remember no matter how upset we get or righteous our arguments, at the end of the day we don't have a say in these people's lives. BUT it is fun :)
You may have the best point on this forum. Flowers: )

Quote:
Originally Posted by AristoCat View Post

For how long?

How much do people ahve to put up with?

Why is it that the Swedes (along with every other nation with a monarchy) have to put up with these walking soap opera dramas in the form of women that these princes want to marry? Aren't there limits to waht the taxpayers should have to pay for?

You know, the next time people bellyache about people on welfare, I'll make it a point to remind them (if I'm in Europe) that people on welfare don't live half as well as these 'fairytale princesses' and these princesses come from backgrounds that are just the same as those who whine about the behavior of people on welfare.
Good point. I also notice that the actual prince is sort of getting a pass. Meanwhile sofia Kardashian is taking most of the heat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post

I think if a dynasty that is, in your words, one of the most respected royal families in Europe, can be weakened in the long run because a royal who is not in the direct line of succession married a woman with a well publicized past, then I would question just how respected and strong they were to begin with.

Royal families have survived scandals far worse than a woman like Sofia Hellqvist.
Maybe. But who knows what train tracks are being set to show up down the road. Thanks for engaging with me
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  #1550  
Old 09-22-2013, 09:23 AM
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I think that it is clear that Sofia is and will probably remain a controversial figure. If she does marry into the SRF I don't think that will change , in fact I would guess it would get worse and the press would rehash her past over and over again. So I have to ask myself ,if I really loved someone would I want to put them through that for what could possibly be many years to come.Perhaps if Carl really loves her he has to face this and maybe end their relationship.It isn't true that love can cure all, it can cure many things but certainly not a rabid press .I don't know if I would want the person I loved to be ridiculed everyday , as I believe the statements against her will get worse, at every event she participates in she will be judged more harshly than others.It isn't a recipe for a happy marriage in the end.
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  #1551  
Old 09-22-2013, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marlene View Post
I think that it is clear that Sofia is and will probably remain a controversial figure. If she does marry into the SRF I don't think that will change , in fact I would guess it would get worse and the press would rehash her past over and over again. So I have to ask myself ,if I really loved someone would I want to put them through that for what could possibly be many years to come.Perhaps if Carl really loves her he has to face this and maybe end their relationship.It isn't true that love can cure all, it can cure many things but certainly not a rabid press .I don't know if I would want the person I loved to be ridiculed everyday , as I believe the statements against her will get worse, at every event she participates in she will be judged more harshly than others.It isn't a recipe for a happy marriage in the end.
Your post is a bit refreshing. I never thought of it that way. It takes more than love to make a marriage work. And the seething disdain people have for her won't be cured by a dozen roses.
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  #1552  
Old 09-22-2013, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loyalist View Post
And the seething disdain people have for her won't be cured by a dozen roses.
If P.Carl Philip or the SRF has a 'seething disdain' for her, they should end the relationship... if this 'seething disdain' is based on what people on these forums say, it doesn't matter one thing as all our opinions are just opinions and should not interfere with anything the SRF does

just my opinion ofcourse, which also doesn't matter
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  #1553  
Old 09-22-2013, 10:03 AM
Aristocracy
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post

If P.Carl Philip or the SRF has a 'seething disdain' for her, they should end the relationship... if this 'seething disdain' is based on what people on these forums say, it doesn't matter one thing as all our opinions are just opinions and should not interfere with anything the SRF does

just my opinion ofcourse, which also doesn't matter
Our opinions are just that. However, the opinions aren't restricted to the royal forums. These are opinions shared by many people just a bit exaggerated perhaps. It truly is more than just what the SRF thinks. If they existed without any thought to the general public they wouldn't stay on the throne.
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  #1554  
Old 09-22-2013, 10:32 AM
Empress Merel's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
Oh God...

On average the Swedish taxpayer is paying $1.82 annually for the monarchy. Half of that is for palace administration, so only 91 cents per person is going towards funding the lives of the Swedish royals. I kind of think that the 91 cents isn't really enough for people to complain nearly as much as they are about Sofia.

Sofia is a woman who rose to fame because she was a model. The nature of her modelling really is irrelevant; she became famous because she was a model. She did a reality TV show because hey, that's what famous people do these days. Yes it was a sleazy one, but most reality TV shows are kind of sleazy. She does not owe anyone an apology for her actions, nor does she have to say that she did anything wrong because, regardless of how you feel about them, adults consenting to have sexually suggestive naked pictures of them taken is not against the law in Sweden. Nor is appearing in sleazy reality TV shows. Sofia may at this point in her life regret those choices she made, or she may not. Given as she is no longer modeling or appearing in reality TV shows I think it's safe to say it's kind of time to move on from her past.

However, people aren't willing to do such. They're hung up on actions that Sofia did at a minimum of three years ago simply because Sofia's actions don't mesh with their personal morals regarding sex, sexuality, and nudity. I'm not saying that the people who oppose Sofia are prudes - that's a sweeping statement - but I am saying that they're condemning her for her behaviour simply because it doesn't match up with their morals. We live in a world where slut shaming exists, and Sofia is being slut shamed. Unfortunately for every royal watcher who hates her, she - along with CP and the SRF - appears to be ignoring the shaming.

What's more is that they're blatantly disregarding any attempt she makes to move on from that. Her charity work is written off not as her actually trying to do charity work but as her trying to make herself look good because she's almost a royal - the fact that many other royal brides didn't necessarily do all that much charity work pre-relationship is considered irrelevant. When she appears at an event she's condemned for smiling at the cameras - if anyone royal smiles at a camera people applaud because they're smiling, but not Sofia. When something happens with her charities people instantly jump to the worst conclusions and condemn her for her actions.

For example, not all that long ago someone found a photo of a group of South African girls from Sofia's charity Project Playground. The girls were set to appear on a South African TV show and the costumes were revealing. Instantly Sofia was slandered as trying to expose young girls - who themselves were already at risk of rape - to sex and reality tv. This was regardless of the fact that
  1. If you look at Project Playground's website you'll see that they're already well aware of the likelihood that the children they work with, regardless of gender, are at risk of being raped,
  2. No where on the website did it say that Sofia had any part in deciding that the girls would be involved in the show, selecting which girls would appear on the show, or selecting the costume itself
  3. A search of the internet indicates that at minimum the costume selected is a cultural dress, and that attitudes towards female nudity are different in South Africa
  4. The show itself was a religious, educational, children's show aimed at improving morality in South Africa.
This shows that people don't actually care what Sofia does. They've made up their minds about her and regardless of how much she tries to move forward and change her life, people are too hung up on the fact that she's comfortable enough with her body to appear nude.


Really, if you think about it, the attitudes towards Sofia are no different than the way that teenage bullys treat girls who so often end up committing suicide. I have to say that HRHHermione is right; Sofia is an amazing role model for these types of girls because she's showing that you don't have to be ashamed of your body, you don't have to be ashamed of your sexuality, and you can rise above and ignore the relentless comments of petty people.
One of the best posts ever written on this forum.
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  #1555  
Old 09-22-2013, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
I resent it that people try to disqualify anybody who is critial of Sofia as being a 'slut shamer' or a prude and responsible for teenage suicides. I am not a slut shamer, no prude, no bully and I never drove anybody to commit suicide. It is odd to try to 'win' this debate by using such terms to refer to anybody who does not agree with your point of view. Thus implying that anybody objecting to Sofia is somehow old fashioned and almost committing a (moral) crime. I think that most questions and doubts that people have about her are legitemate. Likewise, I have never called Sofia supporters names or blamed them for all the wrong doings of the world or suicides.

However I don't see how it is slut shaming if people are questioning the motives and suitebility of a lady participating in a sleazy tv show who has not attempted to build up a carreer, who has never made any attempt to get herself educated, who solely relied on her looks to achieve her ultimate goals of fame and attention and who now has reinvented herself as the mother Theresa of Sweden by using another persons charity as a photo opportunity & listing herself as the founder. Unlike others Ia do not see a reformed woman. I see the same woman with the same goals (fame and attention) only with different -and more successful- methods.Even worse is the prince for making such a fool of himself and his parents for allowing it. It shows the bankruptcy and true rediculousness of the monarchy and makes a very good argument to get rid of them.

Of course the prince himself is not much better either. He has a few engagements but apart from that just seems to be holidaying and racing cars. IMO it is much better if junior members of a royal family have to suppot themselves and build a carreer, as prince Constantijn and the late prince Friso & their wives have been doing.
Is it really the role of the administrator to be such a hate-monger on these boards? And a very un-informed one at that.
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  #1556  
Old 09-22-2013, 11:01 AM
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You know grevinnan, I don't understand why people with differing opinions have to call one another names. What is "hate mongering" about Marengo's post?

Again, I am not sure why it only seems to be the SH supporters in this debate who have resorted to subtle and not so subtle personal digs at posters who disagree with them, but I AM sure that it's not necessary.

For the record Marengo is about as far from uninformed as it is possible to be concerning Continental Royals.
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  #1557  
Old 09-22-2013, 11:07 AM
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Posts: 14,966
Project Playground has finally put their Annual Report from 2012 to their website.
http://www.project-playground.org/en...round-2012.pdf
Their administrative expenses are quite big in percentage.
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  #1558  
Old 09-22-2013, 11:13 AM
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People should be free to make up their own minds about Sofia. My dislike of her does not make a "slut shamer" and I really resent that terminology in this case. Some do not like or agree with others about Sofia and hate that we make "judgments" about her, but then turn around and call others names?? That to me is the height of hypocrisy. I NEVER called her a slut and never would, I do not agree with her choices. I am no bully, simply a person expressing an opinion. Stop the name calling yourselves.I do not think she is a role model, I think her choices have reinforced the objectification of women. Period. I and others are not hate mongerers, but people who call us names seem to be the ones hating. I hate no one.
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  #1559  
Old 09-22-2013, 11:13 AM
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I agree with you empress merel, that's a great post from Ish.
If the Swedish royal family accepts her then that's none of our business and not even the Swedes one.
Since CP is unlikly to become King then his choice of wife has no importance for the monarchy.Are people expecting a noble,virgin,perfect wife for CP like Diana?
We have already seen what happened to the supposed perfect match Charles/Diana.
May be she isn't perfect but who here can pretend to be perfect.Every one should be given a second chance. As far as I know,Sofia isn't a criminal (no robbery,homicide,drug deal...).
I feel so sorry for Carl Philipp and Madeleine,everything they do is subject to harsh criticism,everything sainte Victoria do is perfect.
In comparison,I love how the Brits are so magnanimous with Prince Harry and his gaffes
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  #1560  
Old 09-22-2013, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
I resent it that people try to disqualify anybody who is critial of Sofia as being a 'slut shamer' or a prude and responsible for teenage suicides. I am not a slut shamer, no prude, no bully and I never drove anybody to commit suicide. It is odd to try to 'win' this debate by using such terms to refer to anybody who does not agree with your point of view. Thus implying that anybody objecting to Sofia is somehow old fashioned and almost committing a (moral) crime. I think that most questions and doubts that people have about her are legitemate. Likewise, I have never called Sofia supporters names or blamed them for all the wrong doings of the world or suicides.
I'm one of those that thinks Sofia should be given a chance, but I actually agree with this statement. I think both sides of the argument have made some good points, and I don't think it's fair to suggest that those that have qualms about Sofia, are slut shamers or no different than bullies.

I think it's admirable that Sofia is taking steps to change her life, but I don't consider her to be an amazing role model for young girls. No more than I think Kim Kardashian, Paris Hilton or any reality star of their ilk to be role models. Maybe in a few years I'll think differently, but at this point Sofia hasn't really done much to be considered a role model.
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Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

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Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

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Our RV & Travel Trailer sites encompasses virtually all types of Recreational Vehicles, from brand-specific to general RV communities.

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Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

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